prospect heights (Franklin and st johns)
Comments
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Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
beeninbrooklyn wrote: But if you want to continue debating the point consider this: Prospect Heights is the name for Prospect Hill. If you want to know the beginning and end of Prospect Hill just walk those streets (sterling-prospect are best). You'll feel the end of Prospect Hill just before the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
Just an observation...
The term "Heights" does not necessarily imply the whole hill.
More likely that it suggests just the high ground at the top of it.
Seen from another angle, I'm quite sure we can all 100% agree that the term "Prospect Heights" does not include the entire western...erm...Slope of the Mount Prospect landmass that runs from its crest at Mount Prospect Park and Prospect Park clear down toward 4th Avenue. I believe that the neighborhood has its own name, although it escapes me at the moment.
By that same token, I am doubtful that term would then somehow include the entire eastern slope of that landmass down toward its eastern base near Franklin Avenue.
It just makes a lot more sense that term "Heights" more logically refers to the plateau / mesa / flat-area-whatever at the top of Mount Prospect (for which Prospect Park and Mount Prospect Park located at that crest, were named), which happens to be the area between Flatbush and roughly Washington Avenue (which is before it starts to slope downward toward Franklin).
Seen yet another way, we know exactly where the term "Prospect" comes from, but why would the term "Heights" be used to describe the area nearing the bottom of the Mount Prospect hill/landmass (on that one side) instead of just referring to the plateau area at the top?
Okay, I'm all angled out. :shaking2: :-s
Continue. -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
jeffrey wrote: Seen from another angle, I'm quite sure we can all 100% agree that the term "Prospect Heights" does not include the entire western...erm...Slope of the Mount Prospect landmass that runs from its crest at Mount Prospect Park and Prospect Park clear down toward 4th Avenue. I believe that the neighborhood has its own name, although it escapes me at the moment.
So wait...considering the above and how the naming convention works along the western side, would that make the [Washington-Franklin] area in question...
By that same token, I am doubtful that term would then somehow include the entire eastern slope of that landmass down toward its eastern base near Franklin Avenue.
Prospect Slope?
OH NOES~! What have I done!
*runs away -
caseopele wrote: [quote=sillybilly][quote=caseopele]If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one it hit.
Whatever dude. :roll:
I live in Crown Heights but I didn't take offense to what beeninbrooklyn wrote because I know I'm not one of the people described. You took what he wrote personally and defended yourself vigorously. If you are not one of those people then you shouldn't have felt the need to defend yourself. Follow me, dude?
Umm, I understood what you were saying, but thanks for the clarification, I guess. So, one detailed response to a specific post means I'm defending myself "vigorously"?? I thought we're just having a conversation here. And, btw, now I'm defending myself vigorously. I'm out. -
sillybilly wrote: Umm, I understood what you were saying, but thanks for the clarification, I guess. So, one detailed response to a specific post means I'm defending myself "vigorously"?? I thought we're just having a conversation here. And, btw, now I'm defending myself vigorously. I'm out.
Whatever dude. :roll: -
Subject: ?
somewhat of a contradiction, no? if washington, according to you, borders prospect heights than how could the museum be in ch if it's on the west side of washington running west toward underhill. And according to your previous definition the BMA cannot be in PH, being that it's on the southside of eastern pkwy running into union.
Technically, it's in neither neighborhood, since Empire is the border between Crown Heights and PLG. I think it's fairest to say that the Museum is bordered by Crown Heights and Prospect Heights, since one side faces Prospect Heights and the other side faces Crown Heights, and it's across the street from both of them.
or alternatively are you acknowledging that there are hinterlands that people rightfully recognize as falling into both neighborhoods, and therefore, are w/in reason to identify as either or both neighborhoods? -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
Yes, it actually does. The word 'heights' replaced the word 'hill' when this became a neighborhood just as "crow hill" which is a different hill became "crown heights" The beginning of Crow Hill starts just after the FA Shuttle. (Supposedly Crow became Crown because of undesirale connotations) These neighborhoods were named topographically so to speak (at least in part - the other part being socioeconomic, which has not changed, apparently).
Just an observation...
The term "Heights" does not necessarily imply the whole hill. -
Oh. Okay.
FYI, here's a a cool map on the subject (this here landmass thingy) dated from 1845 with subsequent color-marked annotations showing British, Hessian and Colonial troop positions from the Battle of Brooklyn in the Revolutionary War, but conveniently minus all the distracting buildings and roads of today:
Full map
About the map:
Creator: United States Coast Survey -- Publisher
Published Date: 1845
Image ID: 433950
Image Title: Map of New-York Bay and Harbor and the environs : [with colored manuscript additions to show positions of troops and fleets at the Battle of Long Island, 1776] / founded upon a trigonometrical survey under the direction of F.R. Hassler, superintendent of the Survey of the Coast of the United States ; triangulation by James Ferguson and Edmund Blunt, assistants ; the hydrography under the direction of Thomas R. Gedney, lieutenant U.S. Navy ; the topography by C. Renard, T.A. Jenkins & B.F. Sands assists. ; A.D. Bache superintendent ; verified by Lieut. A.A. Humphreys, topl. engrs. assistant, U.S. Coast Survey. -
caseopele wrote: [quote=sillybilly]Umm, I understood what you were saying, but thanks for the clarification, I guess. So, one detailed response to a specific post means I'm defending myself "vigorously"?? I thought we're just having a conversation here. And, btw, now I'm defending myself vigorously. I'm out.
Whatever dude. :roll:
Either contribute to the debate or keep quiet li'l doggie. woof. -
Subject: Re: ?
beeninbrooklyn wrote:
Not a contradiction, no. It's not in Crown Heights either, since Crown Heights doesn't go past Washington. It borders both neighborhoods but falls within neither, not both (which if you look, is exactly what I said in your quote). Since nobody lives there, I don't think it's an issue that it's not technically within any of the nearby neighborhoods. Neighborhoods imply people, and there aren't any people living within the triangle containing the GAP Library, BBG, Brooklyn Museum and Mount Prospect Park. That doesn't mean that people who move into a neighborhood can decide they live in the adjoining neighborhood (they can say they do if they want, but it doesn't make it so).
somewhat of a contradiction, no? if washington, according to you, borders prospect heights than how could the museum be in ch if it's on the west side of washington running west toward underhill. And according to your previous definition the BMA cannot be in PH, being that it's on the southside of eastern pkwy running into union.
Technically, it's in neither neighborhood, since Empire is the border between Crown Heights and PLG. I think it's fairest to say that the Museum is bordered by Crown Heights and Prospect Heights, since one side faces Prospect Heights and the other side faces Crown Heights, and it's across the street from both of them.
or alternatively are you acknowledging that there are hinterlands that people rightfully recognize as falling into both neighborhoods, and therefore, are w/in reason to identify as either or both neighborhoods? -
Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights! If I consider the border to be Franklin, then there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. You can debate the point until the end of time, but you'll never change my mind or those who disagree with your point of view. And, yes, it does make it so for me, just as the opposite makes it so for you. End of story.
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Jack Krohn wrote: And, yes, it does make it so for me, just as the opposite makes it so for you. End of story.
No. Just as claiming you're on Mars might make it so for you, but not "just as" me claiming I'm on Earth makes it true for me. It's not an equivalence. One is correct on a level higher than your subjective reality and one isn't.
There's nothing wrong with Crown Heights. I don't know why you're willing to create your own reality where you don't live there. -
yes its Crown Heights. I moved here with husband and now 2 children from Gramercy 2 years ago. We bought a place off of Franklin. We LOVE it here. St Johns cross street seems to have more people hanging out in front of blldgs, but these people mostly keep to themselves. There is so much gentrifying traffic at Franklin Park, I cannot believe you are really seriously worried. Come over on a Friday evening and you will see alot of Park Slopers and others hanging out on a nice clear evening at FPark. Franklin is quickly changing - new childrens play space further down Franklin. Just bought balloons there for daughters bday - and cheaper than the Park Slope options ! Also that shooting was faaar away in a whole other part of CH. CH isa HUGE nabe, thats like living on 86th street in Manhattan and worrying about whats happened on 14th street.....
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Here's a contribution, it's freaking Crown Heights no matter what you want to call it. Calling it Prospect Heights just so you can get more money when you sell is a dickish move. It shows you don't really care about the neighborhood OR your neighbors, you only care about cashing in. Shady realtors call it Prospect Heights to sucker people with money into moving here. It's Crown Heights and I happen to be proud to call it my home, it reminds me of the Brooklyn I grew up in.
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As far as I understand it there are no official neighborhood boundaries, i.e. no government organization has drawn specific lines and designated certain blocks to be within certain neighborhoods. There are community board boundaries, landmark district boundaries, etc. but no official neighborhood boundaries.
Over time the boundaries and names have changed and this has occurred based on what is generally accepted. This means that if enough people accept certain blocks to be within a certain neighborhood then they are in fact in that neighborhood. An example of this is in Park Slope where 20-30 years ago the western boundary was accepted to be 6th Ave. I don't think anyone will debate that 5th Ave is now firmly in what is currently referred to as Park Slope.
The only official neighborhood map that I can find is this one that is published by the NYC Dept of City Planning. While anyone can draw a map I think the Dept of City Planning map probably holds the most weight if we are looking for "official" or "technical" boundaries.
They do not show firm boundaries for any neighborhood but they do label an area as Prospect Heights. I'll leave it to each of you to interpret the boundaries based on the label provided. Here is a link to the city map: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neighbor/neighl.shtml and to the District 8 map: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk8profile.pdf which has a close up of the area in question. -
i used to want to live in PH before i got so fucking sick of this debate.
sign me up for "crow hill", please. i don't think it's unreasonable to delineate sub-sections of CH, given how very large it is and how very different its parts are from one another. -
Ben wrote: As far as I understand it there are no official neighborhood boundaries, i.e. no government organization has drawn specific lines and designated certain blocks to be within certain neighborhoods. There are community board boundaries, landmark district boundaries, etc. but no official neighborhood boundaries.
That old chestnut...
Over time the boundaries and names have changed and this has occurred based on what is generally accepted. This means that if enough people accept certain blocks to be within a certain neighborhood then they are in fact in that neighborhood. An example of this is in Park Slope where 20-30 years ago the western boundary was accepted to be 6th Ave. I don't think anyone will debate that 5th Ave is now firmly in what is currently referred to as Park Slope.
The only official neighborhood map that I can find is this one that is published by the NYC Dept of City Planning. While anyone can draw a map I think the Dept of City Planning map probably holds the most weight if we are looking for "official" or "technical" boundaries.
They do not show firm boundaries for any neighborhood but they do label an area as Prospect Heights. I'll leave it to each of you to interpret the boundaries based on the label provided. Here is a link to the city map: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neighbor/neighl.shtml and to the District 8 map: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk8profile.pdf which has a close up of the area in question.
No border can be determined from those maps, since they don't list one. The font size they chose caused the words prospect heights to spill beyond the actual borders of the neighborhood. -
the street map at the Park Place subway station on the wall has the words "Prospect Heights" with the "S" in heights right overtop of the subway station...at Franklin and Park.
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xlizellx wrote: the street map at the Park Place subway station on the wall has the words "Prospect Heights" with the "S" in heights right overtop of the subway station...at Franklin and Park.
...written in crayon by Jack Krohn. -
when people say that this neighborhood taint doesn't feel like crown heights, or does feel like prospect heights, what exactly are they referring to? is it the avenues? i've lived on new york ave and near underhill, and there are definitely cross streets betwixt washington and franklin that give me more of a crown heights feel, both in neighborhood vibe and architecturally.
then again, i live on the ass-end of prospect. unquestionably in PH, but has a little bit of that CH flavor.
why does no one ever talk about how the far eastern parts of crown heights don't "feel like" "crown heights"? -
Just want to thank all for the feedback!!!! Have moved in and yes it is pretty noisey sometimes, the drug dealers are loud, but so far so good. Love diversity too but but the drug thing is a turn off for many who worry about their families. The thing that bothers me most about Franklin is the many closed up stores. Is there any hope Franklin with come back to life fully. The stores that are there are great just hoping more will open up (between St Johns and subway) Now on a lighter note does anyone know where the new pizza shop is that sells cured meat or actually cures the meat on site? Saw something on it here once can't find now. Also in this entire area what italian restaurants are the real thing? having studied cooking in Italy, looking for a real "Italian" Restaurant to work in not some tourist trap :} tx
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stah00 wrote: Also in this entire area what italian restaurants are the real thing? having studied cooking in Italy, looking for a real "Italian" Restaurant to work in not some tourist trap :} tx
you could try aliseo osteria del borgo on vanderbilt between park and prospect. there's also locanda vini e olii on gates ave near another neighborhood taint (is it clinton hill? is it bed stuy?).
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