How the TWU Blew It

Idlewild wrote: This will all be moot in several years. Who wants to bet that within ten years the only man power on the MTA subways will be track workers? The MTA is going to go total automation and have no use for motormen or conductors. No more pensions, no more Taylor Law, no muss, no fuss.

I'll take that bet. Not a chance of that happening within 50 years, fancy plans notwithstanding. I'll be happy if they can get electronic schedules and clocks showing when the next train is coming, but I'm not holding my breath for that either.

a train without a conductor is a world away from a train without a driver. (i like the conductors, but the trains in chicago are one-person operation, which never seemed to be a problem, except i guess that if there was a problem in one car, it was the driver who had to walk down from the front to check it out)

the original plan for the times square shuttle called for automatic trains, which they couldn't make people believe would work safely, even on such a simple run. the trains were built and tested, but never used. granted, that was a long time ago, but with increased fears of terrorism and general jitteriness about transit, i wouldn't put money on automated trains.

Carnivore wrote: Ha ha!!!! I knew this would stir things up again!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

blah blah blah, mr. minister of propaganda

I hope he gets f'd in the butt

Mr T is doing his time in the Tombs which is the eqivalent of getting locked up at the local precinct. They should have shipped him off to Rikers.

I've got no sympathy for him or his union. The law is pretty clear as to what the penalties are for strikes. He wants to exercise his right to break the law, he ought to be prepared to deal with the consequenses. Its a pussy move to strike then tell the judge you shouldn't be punished for it.

From the highly subjective haze of my virulent anti-unionism, I can't help but find it ironic and telling that the union can't collect its dues once the payments become voluntary. One would think that if the union's existence represented a clear benefit to union members, they'd pay up with little fuss--yes, I understand the concept of game theory and freeriding, but then the union ought to just negotiate on behalf of those members that actually do pay dues. The fact that its existence depends on involuntarily dues collection, however, calls into question the benefit that the union actually serves to its members.

My wife is another unwilling victim of this forced union conscription. There's obviously no denying that there are certain economic benefits that the union has negotiated for her. However, there are costs as well. She finds that if she contacts the union to ask about benefits, mentoring, administrative matters, or anything else useful, they blow her off--they are informative only about matters relating to her union responsibilities, and they use intimidation and coercion to stifle dissent. If there is a strike, she will be forced to stop working against her will. She has no flexibility or control over her employment terms despite having individual needs. And the fact that the union has blackmailed the city into providing benefits promises that it can't keep means that her workplace is underfunded, short on supplies and technology, and short on staff (and the city may default on its pension promises anyway if it goes bankrupt).

We'd gladly have her negotiate her own contract, even at a short term loss, if it meant freedom from the union's domination.

Idlewild wrote: I'll be happy if they can get electronic schedules and clocks showing when the next train is coming, but I'm not holding my breath for that either.

They have those in DC, and frankly, I can do without. I'd rather stand knowing a train will be here sooner than later than know it's going to be 9 minutes.
And I do think eventually we'll have automated trains in NYC, but I agree, despite being able to now (technologically speaking), it will take decades to see anything constructive happen.

Drano wrote: Pretty sad situation seeing as most of those jobs could be learned in an afternoon by any person capable of tying his/her shoes.

No joke! I have Two Masters degrees (one in a business field, one a social science) and in many ways they have a better financial situation than I do. Fuck that! they're lucky to have any job. They should take the pay they get and not cry for more at the expense of millions of others. fuckers.

Well, considering that the workers have families to feed and support that they probably have BA's or BS's at the MOST. and that they are given a thankless job of keeping the City running 24/7/365.........let 'em have their pensions. They can't be replaced that easily, at least until the MTA goes all automated.
The things I didn't like about the strike was the TWU's demand for "respect", which was just stupid and really hurt their position and prestige, and that they didn't force the MTA to open the books since the Taylor law doesn't allow them to strike. I don't believe (and I'm playing an armchair lawyer) that any court wouldn't go for the trade off.

kosherdave wrote: No offense to anyone on this board but I give a big FUCK YOU to the MTA workers and the TWU (and the MTA in general). They're a bunch of greedy workers who frankly, do a shitty job at best.
As for benefits increases, mine are nothing like theirs and I'm sure I work just as hard, or harder, but you don't hear me whining about a pension, I have a savings account for that, a 401k and an IRA which I contribute 100% to myself. not 5%.
If I was to go on strike at my job for that kind of raise, they'd fire my ass in two seconds. Out the door, don't come back, good luck getting a reference from us!
I may have a narrow way of looking at this, but still, a big FU to the TWU.

You and the other losers who reside on this board are bitter, white gentrificationists, who can't believe a bunch of mostly black, blue-collar workers make more money than you. So you've come here to bellyache about it. Instead, have the impetus to actually go about impoving your own life. These workers are doing the best for themselves. I can see that you only value yourself in terms of the degrees some school gave you. And it seems like these degrees aren't worth much. You're telling everyone here that you're worthless. I'm understanding why you would feel that way. If you feel so badly about the TWU, stop riding the trains and buses. Let your unemployed ass hail a cab everytime you need one. I'm sure you'll teach the TWU a good lesson!

You are exactly correct. Of course, someone in la-la land is going to come on here and tell you that the TWU fights for all of us, in spite of the fact that what they are fighting for is to take money out of your pocket and put it in theirs.

Pretty sad situation seeing as most of those jobs could be learned in an afternoon by any person capable of tying his/her shoes.

Peculiar. If we were talking about Enron or increases in gas prices, maybe your attitude might be different.

It's funny how people like yourself reveal your TRUTH in such ridiculous arguments to disguise your racial hatred. If this was the NYPD or FDNY you, and most whites in this city would have supported them with no questions asked. (It's happened SEVERAL times in the past.) The irony is, everyday your selfish white asses depend on MTA to transport you from A to B.

bleeds wrote:
It's funny how people like yourself reveal your TRUTH in such ridiculous arguments to disguise your racial hatred. If this was the NYPD or FDNY you, and most whites in this city would have supported them with no questions asked. (It's happened SEVERAL times in the past.) The irony is, everyday your selfish white asses depend on MTA to transport you from A to B.

Right, the selfish white grupsters are no better than the bourgeoisie who supported the Nazis, depending on the slave labor of oppressed minorities like the MTA to drive New York's concentration camps.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Idlewild wrote: I think there needs to be more dialogue on this issue. At least four to five more pages.

...over the next four months.

alafairnadia wrote: on one hand, nybt, I totally agree with you - pulling the race argument in such a gentriconfrontational way is really off-putting. at the same time, I totally see bleeds' point.

also, I remember when I was unemployed I would look at the MTA ads on the subway and think "holy shit, if I knew how to fix an engine, I could make $25/hour plus bennies and a pension? if I could, I'd trade these retarded degrees for the ability to fix a damn engine!" I'm not certain I ever reached the level of resentment articulated by some folks on the board, but I sure wished I'd taken shop instead of AP history in high school. for, seriously, purely financial reasons.

Sure, I can see the point that he or she is trying to make, and to a certain extent agree with it, but pulling out the race card IS weak. If he/she had said that it were about class instead of race, I think that it would garner a little more support.

As far as my particular views on MTA workers' pay scale (or anyone's pay, for that matter), it doesn't only come down to how knowledgeable or skilled you are- what you're willing to do can certainly be a factor. There are some really shitty jobs out there that don't require a lot of skill of knowledge, but if it needs to be done, sometimes the employer needs to pony up to find someone willing to do it. In the end, it's all about what the market will bear, so there's no resentment here.

escap wrote: I think the whole argument about whether the workers "deserve" salary XYZ really distracts from the main issue--the strike. There's not necessarily a correlation between wage and education, so let the TWU and the MTA negotiate whatever salary they can that is mutually agreeable. It's not up to us to decide the "right" amount for them to make, and so long as there's no coercion involved, I'm happy as a taxpayer to contribute to competitive salaries for public employees--again, based on the legitimate means of negotiation, arbitration, and the market. If there's perception of injustice, then public protests, speeches, editorials and other legitimate means of rallying public support are all perfectly valid.

However, there's a reason that striking is illegal for public employees. They are in a monopoly situation and are providing a public service that is critical to the health and well being of millions of uninvolved people. I would not support the NYPD in a million years if they went on strike, or the Fire Department, or public health workers, the military, or the government. If any of them choose to quit, that's their right, but a strike means the coercion of others into not working. Furthermore, the TWU purposely timed its strike to inflict maximum pain on ordinary citizens, even though we had no control over the negotiations. That's called using us as hostages, and was especially painful for poor people.

So don't distract from the issue with this racial bs!! For god's sake, most people on this board are even more upset about CEO salaries, and CEO's are predominantly white and educated. This is not about TWU benefits or gentrification, it's about the strike.

Word.