Park Slope Kids Run Amuck vol. 65

Subject: Kids Run Amok

.......only if it's a nice Chianti :shock:

Mostly true, but I will say that the children of the (numerous) europeans living in Park Slope are generally just as poorly behaved as their counterparts of U.S. parentage.

Must be something in our neighborhood water.

Your child, of course, is awesome.

On a related note, did you guys see the NYT City section article yesterday about the Park Slope school where kids basically do whatever they want? There's no curriculum, no grades, and basically no didactic learning of any kind. It seems like most of the kids basically play all day. You have to wonder, between a school like this, and the attitudes discussed above, what are these kids going to be like when they grow up (or more accurately, when they get older, since I'm not sure they'll ever "grow up" in the traditional sense)?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/nyregion/thecity/07free.html

Ha! Yeah, I remember getting taken for a few "walks" when I was a kid for doing a heckuva a lot less in a restaurant than seems to be tolerated now. My mother could bring the pain I'll tell ya.

Oh man! Of course the Free School has a Coop link...this is great stuff. /wipes tear

I do think it's weird that children get taken to implicitly adult events, but I can't tell whether this is a change over time or whether there were always people who took their kids to dinner parties and we just didn't know any of them.

Both my husband and I recall clearly being taken to dinner dances with our parents as small (4-8 years old) children. My parents also took us out regularly to eat at "adult" restaurants (primarily because there weren't a lot of places that catered to children when we were young). We were taught that our table manners were a reflection on our parents and therefore, woe be unto us if we misbehaved.

We take our son out to events, but I always make sure that he's got something to amuse himself with if it is going to be the kind of event that's not going to keep his attention. When he was younger we also made sure that he took an afternoon nap so that he was not cranky or tired. He's been to the opera, the ballet, and a couple of black tie affairs. I wouldn't take an infant or a baby out to some of these places, but kids who are pre-school age can be in adult places. Its more about the parents teaching them manners (use your inside voice, no talking during performances, be aware that other people are around you and want to enjoy the show, etc.)

The problem I see if folks who don't teach their kids manners, don't discipline them, then want to take them out in public.

Sorry for the double post above - they were mine

Subject: kids gone wild

No doubt there is a trend of brattier kids--
Older parents? Hmm, I don't think so....I am an older parent and when we go out my kids are on a very short leash. I will not tolerate acting up in a restaurant or out the door we go. Guilt? I think all parents feel guilty over something or other with all the articles about how to raise perfect children and all the things you must BUY to raise perfect children. Class? I see rudeness in both the affluent Park Slope clichés and also kids from lower socio-economic groups shoving and pushing for subway seats.

But I also blame the "child-free" people too with no patience for how much work parenting is.--The resentment people have in the work place towards mothers who can't stay past 6 or fathers who want to take a family vacation. Corporations get away with not providing part time work or job sharing or being family friendly because they can capitalize on this new American harshness towards our neighbors. This attitude towards parents is the same one we feel when we look away with disgust at the homeless person, turn the page about Darfur, vote to privatize social security and all the other chipping away at the social safety nets. And this is the attitude that we now raise our children with: YOU are the center of the world. (This attitude was perfectly illustrated recently on the Park Slope Parents board where a mother lamented "must my child always share at the playground?" In this new self-centered America.....NO of course not. Be a greedy little pig because it will serve you well). But if we really long for community, then we need to be charitable towards our neighbors and teach our children they are one of a group. And that ultimately means making personal sacrifices and not feeling resentful about it.

alafairnadia wrote: the only point I make is that those with children need to be aware of the fact that they do add a burden to the childless, or those with only older children. my dept. at work is only 6 people. for awhile, a guy who has since left, took at least two days off a month to take care of his kids if they were out sick from school. no one could call him on b.s. because he had children and we didn't, we didn't "understand". he also frequently wouldn't check his blackberry on weekends, always left at 5:30 p.m., etc. in a place where the average billable employee works around 70-80 hours a week, someone clocking in a max of 40 hours a week is a huge drain on resources. obviously, he made a lifestyle choice in a place that doesn't offer that choice and, thankfully, got the hint and left. but let me tell you - I hated him and his kids every time I had to work through a weekend or until 11 p.m. to finish one of his projects because his kid had a runny nose.

but I think we might be in agreement because the way I see it, is that by companies NOT offering other job solutions, those with kids, or dying parents or sick partners end up not being able to work as many hours for a couple of years and are resented by their co-workers. And people need to work but are willing to take pay cuts for time! Of course, it would be nice if people could not take advantage and if coworkers could know that some day they will need that same consideration in their lives too. OR corporations could offer flex time, job sharing, and part time positions. Case in point, when my husband took his new position, he tried to negotiate for additional vacation time in lieu of salary. No deal. He tried for a four day work week and many of the other options that work better for families with young children and was willing to take the pay cut for the time. No deal. So then you have someone like him having to call in sick or leave early or whatever. But as long as companies can divide and conquer they don't have to offer family friendly options and as long as corporations have to pick up the cost of health care, it isn't cost effective to offer anything but full time.

Yeah, if everyone else is working 60 hours a week, then the person working 40 hours a week looks like a slacker. And yet, eight hours a day (make it at least nine when you add on a commute) is a long time to be away from children. I think many, many people would take part-time or flex-time work if they could get it. In most places, if you can get part-time at all, the expectation is that you'll come back to work full-time when the baby is a year old. There's rarely an opportunity for permanent part-time work.

What I think really sucks is this expectation that everyone should work 60 hours a week, should be available to work nights and weekends for those frequent "emergencies," should cheerfully cancel their vacations on short notice, and should be available by phone and email at all times of the day and night. Doesn't that suck for everyone?

alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Rose]What I think really sucks is this expectation that everyone should work 60 hours a week, should be available to work nights and weekends for those frequent "emergencies," should cheerfully cancel their vacations on short notice, and should be available by phone and email at all times of the day and night. Doesn't that suck for everyone?

it does suck for everyone, but we're all pretty well paid and know we can leave whenever we want, whenever the irritation of it gets to be too much. I mean, that's my plan - I can't do this crap forever.

my point is, if you know you can't do it, then don't. because if everyone works a 60 hour week when things are running smoothly, but has to work a 70 or 80 hour week because you've got kid issues, you're going to bear the brunt of resentment, whether deserved or not.

But not everyone who works 60 hour weeks is well paid. And it isn't as if you can leave one job and go and find part time.You just leave one situation for a similar one. It is hard to contemplate career changes when you are suddenly sleeping 3 hours a night. Finally, part time doesn't exist (or barely!). I am over educated enough that i was able to start my own business but I know this isn't an option for everyone. Ideally people need to stand up and say GOD DAMN IT, I AM MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE Because why should anyone get caught up in the macho competitive crap of working a 60 hour week for anyone!? If an entire staff needs to work 70 hours a week then that to me, is called short staffed. Is this why we have gotten so callous as a nation? We are tired and stressed?

I work in the legal industry, in a pretty conservative firm, as stated above, so I doubt they'd change. also, the guy had been with the place for 18 years, so it's not like this was a big giant surprise. in any case, I'm glad he's gone, and I'm glad the parents that I work with now are really cool folks who don't mess people about and take care of their own business.

for instance, another one of my coworkers, whose wife is a stay at home mom, wanted to go to his daughter's first haircut. he stayed a little later the day before, and showed us cute photos the day after. our boss is really chill and nice, despite the pressures of the industry and culture, so as long as the person is responsible it all works out.

it's the whole bad egg thing, which I think we all agree on. oh, and don't go into m&a if you don't want to work a lot.

Rose wrote: Law firm culture sucks.

yeah. it's not fun.

This woman (she’s my mom’s husband’s adult daughter) always insists on having dinner at 6:30 because that’s when her bratty kid phillip has to eat (she always brings him, of course)—and then she’s ALWAYS at least half hour late. So my mom chooses this super posh restaurant, totally upscale place. Bad choice. We show up at 6:30, they get there after 7. She insists that the waitress brings her something for phillip before we even order, makes this huge deal about it. phillip proceeds to throw it all over himself, the table, the floor, and the god-awful plastic race-course thing his mother brought along to keep him busy. Disgusting. And the mother never once tried to correct him or show him how to eat properly. That was a year ago and my husband and I decided that under no circumstances would we ever have a meal with this woman again...I don’t know who enjoys watching toddlers eat, imo it’s a sight only a parent could love. Although my nephew zack eats perfectly with a fork at two, but then he’s just brilliant.

On a funnier note, my friend was calling me from the park the other day... She was saying ‘oh my god, this kid was just coming straight down the hill at me on his big wheel! If I didn’t jump out of the way he would have smashed right into me and broken my knees! (and then in a funny-tough voice) And then I would have had to break his face...just cause he’s 3, it’s no excuse!’ so watch out ps parents!

findcate wrote: She was saying ‘oh my god, this kid was just coming straight down the hill at me on his big wheel! If I didn’t jump out of the way he would have smashed right into me and broken my knees!

Although funny, this illustrates my point that yes, there are lots of overindulged brats, but I kind of think there are lots of overindulged adult/childs too. Give me a break, does your friend have to focus negatively on a little three year old out of control coming down a hill? Can't she just step out of the way? Three year olds are just learning to ride tricycles and are usually out of control on them. Parents should know there is a time and place for kids--the park is a totally appropriate place for a kid. We aren't going back to Victorian England where children are never seen--so why not just give each other a wide berth and stop focussing on the negative?

Kensingtonmom wrote:
Although funny, this illustrates my point that yes, there are lots of overindulged brats, but I kind of think there are lots of overindulged adult/childs too. ...

The post read to me like she was joking. (Please tell me she didn't actually think her knees would have been broken, unless she's 85 years oldd with osteoporosis.) But I agree, for every PS parent who thinks the world revolves around them and their kids, there's a PS single or childless who thinks they should never be so much as mildly inconvenienced by a child.

A kid on a trike in a park is not the faux-pas equivalent of a toddler in a four-star restaurant. This kind of mishap is just the price of living in society among other humans.