Atlantic Yards Clears Final Hurdle
Voting 6-1, the NY Appeals Court, the highest court in NY, yesterday cleared the way for Forest City Ratner to acquire the land necessary to build the stadium at Atlantic Yards. Can we please move on now, already. This whole farce has made a mockery of the city planning process and shows how far a group of wealthy and arosed nimbies can go to disrupt a legitimate effort to plan development. Bring on the Nets!
Here's the link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/nyregion/25yards.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=atlantic yards&st=cse
Here's the link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/nyregion/25yards.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=atlantic yards&st=cse
Comments
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"The Nets, who are currently on a West Coast road trip, have started the season 0-13."
lock you doors -
When I sit in traffic at the intersection of 4th Avenue & Atlantic, I always think "Ya know we need? we need a huge stadium here, complete with the requisite fans and spectators just to make life a little better"
There is development and then there is intelligent development. My property is far enough away that I am not immediately affected, but I guess I'll be positively affected when this whole self serving Ratner debacle starts up. -
Subject: Re: Atlantic Yards Clears Final Hurdle
Capt. Planet wrote: Voting 6-1, the NY Appeals Court, the highest court in NY, yesterday cleared the way for Forest City Ratner to acquire the land necessary to build the stadium at Atlantic Yards. Can we please move on now, already. This whole farce has made a mockery of the city planning process and shows how far a group of wealthy and arosed nimbies can go to disrupt a legitimate effort to plan development. Bring on the Nets!
You know, I think a "development project" at Park between New York and Nostrand would really benefit the community at large. If we razed the 2 blocks surrounding that street and built a WalMart with a large parking lot, it would provide a place to shop locally as well as lots of jobs for the people of Crown Heights. We should definitely invoke eminent domain for this clear benefit to the community.
Here's the link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/nyregion/25yards.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=atlantic yards&st=cse -
in case we want to have one thread
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54516 -
Subject: Re: Atlantic Yards Clears Final Hurdle
Carnivore wrote: [quote=Capt. Planet]Voting 6-1, the NY Appeals Court, the highest court in NY, yesterday cleared the way for Forest City Ratner to acquire the land necessary to build the stadium at Atlantic Yards. Can we please move on now, already. This whole farce has made a mockery of the city planning process and shows how far a group of wealthy and arosed nimbies can go to disrupt a legitimate effort to plan development. Bring on the Nets!
You know, I think a "development project" at Park between New York and Nostrand would really benefit the community at large. If we razed the 2 blocks surrounding that street and built a WalMart with a large parking lot, it would provide a place to shop locally as well as lots of jobs for the people of Crown Heights. We should definitely invoke eminent domain for this clear benefit to the community.
Here's the link;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/nyregion/25yards.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=atlantic yards&st=cse
The problem with the non-logic of this observation is the Atlantic Yards is sitting on top of the largest mass transit hub in Brooklyn. Such things don't grow on trees, you know. And to use that site as a vacant hole in the ground because Daniel Goldstein doesn't want to be bothered packing hardly seems like good public policy.
But hey what do I know. I also thought the Nets were going to go 13-0 this season!
As far as the Tsarina's traffic issue, let me suggest mass transit. it's really cool stuff that will reduce your carbon footprint without even having to buy carbon offsets! Post cheap oil, like in about 20 years, when the Nets stadium will just be reaching it's prime, mass transit may be the only game in town. 50 year stadiums require looking into the future, not out your windshield. -
Yeah I'm all for mass transit. When I am hauling my construction materials and 200 lbs. of kitty litter,, and all the traps with wild animals, they tend to spill over my seat and I get dirty looks from fellow straphangers.
Unfortunately some people have occupations that require that they drive.
As for this fabulous transportation hub.... have you tried to get to the subway from the Atlantic center? Most of this fantastic hub is located under already existing buildings, and you need to have your subterrainian G.P.S. on to get where you are going. etc. etc etc.
To take advantage of this site you would need some pretty intelligent planning and take a comprehensive look at the entire area. Atlantic center is not really designed to take advantage of the transit hub. All the car traffic ties up the surrounding area. Add the stadium and you get a nightmare situation now and 50 yrs down the line. Robert Moses also had some pretty big ideas and not all of them worked out well. -
tsarina wrote: Yeah I'm all for mass transit. When I am hauling my construction materials and 200 lbs. of kitty litter,, and all the traps with wild animals, they tend to spill over my seat and I get dirty looks from fellow straphangers.
Yeah, sounds like Captain Planet hasn't actually taken the train at Atlantic Ave anytime recently. With service cutbacks, those trains are pretty much at capacity already most of the time. It's going to be quite unpleasant with the added burden of all the people in those high rises not even counting the absurdity of a stadium.
Unfortunately some people have occupations that require that they drive.
As for this fabulous transportation hub.... have you tried to get to the subway from the Atlantic center? Most of this fantastic hub is located under already existing buildings, and you need to have your subterrainian G.P.S. on to get where you are going. etc. etc etc.
To take advantage of this site you would need some pretty intelligent planning and take a comprehensive look at the entire area. Atlantic center is not really designed to take advantage of the transit hub. All the car traffic ties up the surrounding area. Add the stadium and you get a nightmare situation now and 50 yrs down the line. Robert Moses also had some pretty big ideas and not all of them worked out well. -
tsarina wrote: Yeah I'm all for mass transit. When I am hauling my construction materials and 200 lbs. of kitty litter,, and all the traps with wild animals, they tend to spill over my seat and I get dirty looks from fellow straphangers.
At the last Environmental Committee meeting of CB 8, a couple presented a scary video about the plans Big Energy has for the Marcellus Shale, a huge geologic formation adjacent to the NYC reservoirs that holds millions of cubic feet of natural gas. To get at this gas, a consortium of energy companies wants to pump under great pressure a cocktail of hundreds of toxic chemicals, the exact nature of which they refuse to disclose because it's a "trade secret". It's call "hydtrofracing" and it has the potential to pollute the entire NYC drinking water supply.
Unfortunately some people have occupations that require that they drive.
As for this fabulous transportation hub.... have you tried to get to the subway from the Atlantic center? Most of this fantastic hub is located under already existing buildings, and you need to have your subterrainian G.P.S. on to get where you are going. etc. etc etc.
To take advantage of this site you would need some pretty intelligent planning and take a comprehensive look at the entire area. Atlantic center is not really designed to take advantage of the transit hub. All the car traffic ties up the surrounding area. Add the stadium and you get a nightmare situation now and 50 yrs down the line. Robert Moses also had some pretty big ideas and not all of them worked out well.
That is result of what we call "behind the windshield" thinking. We all need to connect the dots: we can't have cheap energy AND a safe environment. Sooner or later, but certainly within 50 years, cars are going the way of the dodo bird - too big, too dumb, too useless to survive.
And when they do, I guarantee that we'll all find ways to get our needs met that don't involve hauling stuff around in giant metal and glass boxes, typically all by ourselves. And the sooner we start planning for that reality, the fewer resources we will waste on structures that are car dependent and that in 50 years will be just a bunch of abandoned and useless structures.
And then there is the Tokyo subway system, which as only three minute intervals between trains at peak hours. At present the MTA is spending billions upgrading their signal systems so that we too can have more frequent trains. Mass transit can always be enhanced and tweaked, by increasing the number of cars on the tracks and increasing frequency of trains. Try widening Flatbush Avenue!! -
Ah yes, all very fine and good. but some people will still have work that requires personal transportation (with a windshield) and perhaps by then there will be alternative transportation devices (without windshields) that will not require cars as we know them now. I agree that there are too many cars on the road, especially big bloated SUVs full of trucked out Divas and idiots whose only use for a monster truck is to take their fat ass to work and their clothes to the laundry (my tenant).
I got a great idea! why not let those guys just play in a gym somewhere and let anybody interested in that stuff just watch it on TV? -
One problem with adding more cars to a subway train is that the station platforms are only so long. Having to exit a train through the adjacent car would not make trips any faster. One problem with increasing the frequency of trains is that some lines have only 2 tracks in each direction, a local & an express. Often other lines feed into it like the D and the M which connect with the N and the R (my daily commute). There is often a "pause" at 36th Street for instance because the M is crossing in front of the R. Our subway system was built between 75 & 100 years ago, Tokyo's was built 45 or so. The 2 are not comparable.
All of this makes me wonder how Ratner (& others) think more people can use mass transit at the Atlantic-Pacific stations. It's normally packed as it is. A Saturday night game, lots of people (& probably unhappy to boot), crowded trains & platforms, sure makes a pretty picture. -
Salix wrote: One problem with adding more cars to a subway train is that the station platforms are only so long. Having to exit a train through the adjacent car would not make trips any faster. One problem with increasing the frequency of trains is that some lines have only 2 tracks in each direction, a local & an express. Often other lines feed into it like the D and the M which connect with the N and the R (my daily commute). There is often a "pause" at 36th Street for instance because the M is crossing in front of the R. Our subway system was built between 75 & 100 years ago, Tokyo's was built 45 or so. The 2 are not comparable.
OK, you've identified some problems with the MTA system. Congratulation, that and a token will get you on the subway.
All of this makes me wonder how Ratner (& others) think more people can use mass transit at the Atlantic-Pacific stations. It's normally packed as it is. A Saturday night game, lots of people (& probably unhappy to boot), crowded trains & platforms, sure makes a pretty picture.
If we eliminate the private auto as a practical means of transit for all but the rich, a reality about 100 years ago, then we're stuck with the alternatives. As the old saw goes, "if we can put a man on the moon"... we can certainly figure out how to tweak our subway system into the 21st century. Does it mean extending train platforms? Maybe, but hey, they got built once, so I'd imagine they could get extended now. Just relying indefinitely on the private car because Robert Moses spent billions of our tax dollars 50 years ago creating a now outdated and outlandish highway system hardly seems like the positive minded approach. -
As is typical of your rhetorical style, CP, you've made this about a totally irrelevant issue. This isn't a referendum on the automobile. This is about a totally unnecessary stadium financed by public dollars for private benefit in a location that doesn't have the transit capacity (train or car) to effectively deliver people to the site.
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Carnivore wrote: As is typical of your rhetorical style, CP, you've made this about a totally irrelevant issue. This isn't a referendum on the automobile. This is about a totally unnecessary stadium financed by public dollars for private benefit in a location that doesn't have the transit capacity (train or car) to effectively deliver people to the site.
If this site doesn't have the capacity to deliver the people, which one does? As usual, Carni, you fail to see the bigger picture. -
Capt. Planet wrote: [quote=Carnivore]As is typical of your rhetorical style, CP, you've made this about a totally irrelevant issue. This isn't a referendum on the automobile. This is about a totally unnecessary stadium financed by public dollars for private benefit in a location that doesn't have the transit capacity (train or car) to effectively deliver people to the site.
If this site doesn't have the capacity to deliver the people, which one does? As usual, Carni, you fail to see the bigger picture.
this topic has become mired
let us return to the original post
"why do we want a crappy team from new jersey in brooklyn?" -
Subject: Re: Atlantic Yards Clears Final Hurdle
Capt. Planet wrote: ...This whole farce has made a mockery of the city planning process and shows how far a group of wealthy and arosed nimbies can go to disrupt a legitimate effort to plan development...
it has become apparent that you don't live near the area in question
and the alleged ay farce is not in your backyard
who's nimbie now? -
Capt. Planet wrote: [quote=Carnivore]As is typical of your rhetorical style, CP, you've made this about a totally irrelevant issue. This isn't a referendum on the automobile. This is about a totally unnecessary stadium financed by public dollars for private benefit in a location that doesn't have the transit capacity (train or car) to effectively deliver people to the site.
If this site doesn't have the capacity to deliver the people, which one does? As usual, Carni, you fail to see the bigger picture.
Really? Who is failing to see the big picture here? New York already has 2 new stadiums within the past year or so. How many stadiums do we need? Is this really the best use of public funds during an economic crisis? City give-aways to team owners over these stadiums NEVER pay off over the long term; the cities never even break even. It is a bad deal for the city, a bad deal for Brooklyn, and a very bad deal for Prospect Heights. We already have plenty of Brooklyn identity without trying to manufacture a new one by importing a shitty basketball team from New Jersey. -
So, I gather you're willing to concede that Atlantic Yards is the logical place for a stadium. Well, that at least constitutes some progress.
Now you contend we don't need a stadium at all because stadiums are notorious financial sink holes, and oh by the way, the Nets suck. This financial fact is of course why Ratner insisted on building tons of housing (much of it affordable, which of course requires even more unaffordable housing to cross subsidize the affordable housing) to defray the costs of building and operating the stadium.
So to make the numbers work, Ratner places an even greater burden on the mass transit hub by bringing in even more people to the area.
Geez, this IS getting complicated.
Maybe it's better to look at the intangible aspects of stadia. Like the fact the city's largest boro lacks a single venue that can accomodate more than a couple of thousands folks. How are we to promote a sense of boro-wide identity when the biggest public venue is.... what, the LIU basketball stadium that seats maybe 3,000?
What advantage is there in fact in thinking of ourselves as boro of 2.7 million people as opposed to just a gigantuan appendage of Manhattan?
And maybe, just maybe, the Nets suck because nobody cares about them, playing as they do in the middle of a swamp euphemistically referred to as a meadow, lacking any clear identity or fan base. -
Capt. Planet wrote: So, I gather you're willing to concede that Atlantic Yards is the logical place for a stadium.
I have not conceded this at all. It is an already overburdened transit hub adjacent to a low-rise neighborhood, an absolutely inane place to put a stadium.Capt. Planet wrote: Now you contend we don't need a stadium at all because stadiums are notorious financial sink holes, and oh by the way, the Nets suck. This financial fact is of course why Ratner insisted on building tons of housing (much of it affordable, which of course requires even more unaffordable housing to cross subsidize the affordable housing) to defray the costs of building and operating the stadium.
what a straw man argument! I never said they're not profitable to the team owner. I said they're not profitable for the cities. The subsidies that the city gives the owners (including in this case giving Ratner the valuable real estate for a fraction of its value, as well as the inevitable tax breaks, and additional infrastructure costs, for which Ratner will not pay his fair share) never ultimately pay for themselves in tax revenue.Capt. Planet wrote: So to make the numbers work, Ratner places an even greater burden on the mass transit hub by bringing in even more people to the area.
Not complicated, just a terrible idea.
Geez, this IS getting complicated.Capt. Planet wrote: Maybe it's better to look at the intangible aspects of stadia. Like the fact the city's largest boro lacks a single venue that can accomodate more than a couple of thousands folks. How are we to promote a sense of boro-wide identity when the biggest public venue is.... what, the LIU basketball stadium that seats maybe 3,000?
As someone who actually grew up here in Brooklyn, I never felt that we were lacking for identity just because we didn't have a stadium. Little loser cities have to do this kind of shit to pump themselves up- we don't need it. I think people from those kind of places may lack a sense of local identity without a sports team and stadium, but real Brooklynites don't.
What advantage is there in fact in thinking of ourselves as boro of 2.7 million people as opposed to just a gigantuan appendage of Manhattan?Capt. Planet wrote: And maybe, just maybe, the Nets suck because nobody cares about them, playing as they do in the middle of a swamp euphemistically referred to as a meadow, lacking any clear identity or fan base.
I don't see how this is an argument for building a stadium at the site. -
cp
are you supporting an idea but not an actual plan?
an outside assessment of ay "affordable" housing was estimated at roughly $90k income per household... out course this is an outside estimate which you may or may not agree with
but fcr has never defined their affordable housing, or supplied numbers, or a plan
just a renderings surrounded by ghostly buildings
as one who has worked for housing organizations (you)
wouldn't you like to see an actual working business model before, numbers, a projection of development?
i would demand it
too many brooklynites have been screwed by a hollow promise and a false hope -
Affordable housing will never be built, IMO.
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I'd say that if you were looking for the ideal place to put a stadium for a NJ basketball team that was relocating to NY, the ideal place would be the site that had been proposed for the Jets Stadium on the West Side Highway at the end of the 7 line, next to the Javits Center. No real residential neighbors to speak of, and as close to major transportation (including NJ Transit and the LIRR).
With regard to the question of public venues that seat many people, Brooklyn Technical High School has the second largest auditorium in the city after Radio City Music Hall which seats over 3000 people. The Christian Cultural Center in East New York says that it can seat upwards of 5,000 in its sanctuary for each service, and KeySpan Park has an official capacity of 7,500. -
HO, good to see you getting into this discussion.
Regarding the other venues in Brooklyn, the Christian Cultural Center won't really qualify as a public space, given that it's owned by a private Christian group, likewise the Brooklyn Tech auditiorium, while public, exists under the dominion of the Dept of Ed and I'd imagine they'd tolerate a pretty narrow range of events.
And the whole idea of the stadium as I've heard our beloved boro president articulate numerous times, is to help restore Brooklyn to the wonder years of the 30's and 40's when "Brooklyn was the world" and the Dodgers were our heart and soul. I don't think moving the Nets to the upper west side would help a lot with that, and, boy, talk about congested. Have you ever been stuck in trafiic on the Westside highway, or on the train platform at 72 and Broadway at rush hour? -
FYI, they are referring to Midtown West Side (in the 30s), not Upper West Side.
The area that has all the major bus, ferry, rail, subway and auto tunnel hubs. -
Capt. Planet wrote: HO, good to see you getting into this discussion.
Brooklyn is still the center of the world to many of us. We don't need this kind of trashy artifice trying to recapture some fantasy of old glory days. The Nets are not the Dodgers and never will be.
Regarding the other venues in Brooklyn, the Christian Cultural Center won't really qualify as a public space, given that it's owned by a private Christian group, likewise the Brooklyn Tech auditiorium, while public, exists under the dominion of the Dept of Ed and I'd imagine they'd tolerate a pretty narrow range of events.
And the whole idea of the stadium as I've heard our beloved boro president articulate numerous times, is to help restore Brooklyn to the wonder years of the 30's and 40's when "Brooklyn was the world" and the Dodgers were our heart and soul. I don't think moving the Nets to the upper west side would help a lot with that, and, boy, talk about congested. Have you ever been stuck in trafiic on the Westside highway, or on the train platform at 72 and Broadway at rush hour? -
Capt. Planet wrote: ...And the whole idea of the stadium as I've heard our beloved boro president articulate numerous times, is to help restore Brooklyn to the wonder years of the 30's and 40's when "Brooklyn was the world" and the Dodgers were our heart and soul.
ah, yes marty
a likable man, but he'll say anything as long as it comes with a sandwich
ay
what is it really? a stadium? affordable housing? a jeweled crown for all the world to marvel?
is it a chestnut for brooklyn, or only an a.c.o.r.n.?
will ay ever present anything we can b.u.i.l.d upon?
i want a real plan with numbers, not useless pr babble from our boys in albany
unmolested by hidden traps -
How many failures has Forrest City had their hand in around Brooklyn? Metro Tech? Atlantic terminal?
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How is Atlantic Terminal a failure?
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Chekhovian wrote: How is Atlantic Terminal a failure?
Maybe I should be specific and say Atlantic Center Mall. It it were not for city, county and state agencies that office tower connected to the mall would be close to empty. There are so few private businesses (outside of retail) . Then add in the subsidies to build the project and the supposed 23 year tax abatement. You're looking at something that will never generate what tax payers invested.
It also has a terrible layout. If any of those larger tenants decide to vacate it would be difficult to bring in a replacement. -
Karl the Druid wrote: cp
Below is the text from Wikipedia about Ratner's proposal for housing. It seems to conform to what I recall.
are you supporting an idea but not an actual plan?
an outside assessment of ay "affordable" housing was estimated at roughly $90k income per household... out course this is an outside estimate which you may or may not agree with
but fcr has never defined their affordable housing, or supplied numbers, or a plan
just a renderings surrounded by ghostly buildings
as one who has worked for housing organizations (you)
wouldn't you like to see an actual working business model before, numbers, a projection of development?
i would demand it
too many brooklynites have been screwed by a hollow promise and a false hope
"The largest portion of the proposal is high-rise apartment buildings. Of the 6,430 units, 1,930 will be market-rate condominiums. The remaining 4,500 will be rental units, half of which will be set aside for moderate, middle, and low income households. The project defines "moderate income" as families earning $49,600 to $131,600 per year.[6] An undisclosed number of apartments will be available for those earning less than $15,000 per year.[6] The median income for Brooklyn is $32,135.[7]"
These are real numbers that were once considered valid. Since the housing slump, of course, nobody knows what can actually be built. -
What do we need an arena for? The Circus? We already have at least two that come to Brooklyn. The Ice Capades? I'd suggest that we are better off without the stylings of Tai Babalonia and Scott Hamilton. Concerts? We have tons of those at open air venues in the summer. It just seems to me that the "demand" for a venue that seats thousands is non-existant.
Fankly, I'd suggest that if there really was such a demand, it could be better met by turning one of our armories into a venue for large gatherings rather than putting millions of dollars into a venue that is going to feature millionaires entertaining millionaires. Cause if you think that ticket prices are going to be affordable for the average resident you'd be sadly mistaken.
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