Atlantic Yards Clears Final Hurdle
Comments
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Ishtar wrote: [quote=Chekhovian]How is Atlantic Terminal a failure?
Maybe I should be specific and say Atlantic Center Mall. It it were not for city, county and state agencies that office tower connected to the mall would be close to empty. There are so few private businesses (outside of retail) . Then add in the subsidies to build the project and the supposed 23 year tax abatement. You're looking at something that will never generate what tax payers invested.
It also has a terrible layout. If any of those larger tenants decide to vacate it would be difficult to bring in a replacement.
You might recall that the Rose family had site control of ATURA for some 10 years before Ratner got it and never got a thing built. The fact the Ratner was able to build a mall of any kind, even an oddly laid out one, is the real story. At the time no one was building retail in Brooklyn, and certainly not malls. Is it perfect? No. But bear in mind that the Old Navy at Atlantic Terminal was the most profitable outlet in the entire franchise for several years, according to a store manager candidate I once met. And Metro Tech was also the first new office project in Brooklyn since before WWII. Last I checked it was fully rented.
Of course, FCR extracted huge sudsidies from the city to get these projects working, but at least they got the job done. No one else was able to. -
Capt. Planet wrote:
At what cost?
Of course, FCR extracted huge sudsidies from the city to get these projects working, but at least they got the job done. No one else was able to.
Also, just because something is fully rented does not mean it generates revenue and Old Navy having their most profitable store for what ever period of time in that space does not mean it is a success.
The parts create the whole and sometimes those parts don't add up, no matter how "great" one is. -
i don't really like the shopping mall atmosphere, but i can't get around shopping at target every once in a while. people, especially brooklynites, need that kind of retail. i'm not saying i like it, i just think it can't be judged a failure b/c it's not aesthetically pleasing. the place seems crowded and successful as far as retail goes.
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Going back to those stats from the wikipedia article, does anybody believe there is going to be affordable housing for people who make less than $15k/year in a sparkling new high-rise? Where can one find a current plan for the residences that "will" be built? I think the AY site still has renderings of the Ghery design and he's been shitcanned a long time ago.
This project is looking more and more like it'll be just an arena with adjacent parking lots. Real middlewestern. -
Chekhovian wrote: Going back to those stats from the wikipedia article, does anybody believe there is going to be affordable housing for people who make less than $15k/year in a sparkling new high-rise? Where can one find a current plan for the residences that "will" be built? I think the AY site still has renderings of the Ghery design and he's been shitcanned a long time ago.
Exactly. Not something Brooklyn needs at all.
This project is looking more and more like it'll be just an arena with adjacent parking lots. Real middlewestern. -
Chekhovian wrote: i don't really like the shopping mall atmosphere, but i can't get around shopping at target every once in a while. people, especially brooklynites, need that kind of retail. i'm not saying i like it, i just think it can't be judged a failure b/c it's not aesthetically pleasing. the place seems crowded and successful as far as retail goes.
I agree -- it makes me sad how empty so much of the mall is and how much of the occupied space is government owned. There are a lot of empty stores in the mall and I think it's weird -- I would love an ACMoore or Michael's to open up. While I will support a local place first, sometimes the teacher/girl scout leader in me needs mass amounts of felt or stickers or craft sticks. -
Read something interesting about this site. Evidently Walter O' Malley, the owner of the Brooklyn Dodgers wanted to build a new stadium at the intersection Flatbush and Atlantic Avenue. His reasoning was that much of his fanbase had begun moving from North Brooklyn out to Long Island, Ebbets Field was not accessable by mass transit and had only 700 parking spaces. He cited many of the same reasons that Ratner is now using for putting a new stadium at this location. At the time the site was home to warehouses and a large meat market (located on the current site of Atlantic Center). O"malley wanted a privately financed domed stadium and wanted the city to help with land acquisition and site clearance only.
Robert Moses already had plans for a new baseball stadium in Queens and basically torpedoed the idea. He held firm and basically painted O'Malley as a greedy fat cat who was seeking to pick the pockets of the city. Moses claimed that there was no way for public dollars to be spent on the project, even though the city was not actually going to pay for the construction of the stadium.
Funny how almost 60 years later, with even more residential development and greater density in the surrounding neighborhoods, this has suddenly become a prime spot to place an arena. -
i don't think it's funny how the site is vacant and blighted. and to the ay detractors who say the entire eminent domain area is not blighted, you must acknowledge that the atlantic and flatbush intersection is blighted.
a domed stadium at that time would have been well ahead of its time - years before the astrodome aka eighth wonder of the world opened in houston. walter o'malley gets off pretty easy in most people's books with moses the easy scapegoat. what i've learned (in a book called After Many A Summer by Robert Murphy) is that o'malley just wanted to build the best stadium in baseball, preferably at the corner of flatbush and atlantic. moses offered o'malley the current shea/citi field site, but o'malley said no way were the brooklyn dodgers playing in flushing. once the giants moved to california, so could the dodgers.
to get back to the subject of the atlantic yards, i was in favor of the original plan b/c it was not just an arena, but world-class residential and commercial buildings built adjacent so as to be the first urban arena (maybe with msg being the only exception) where there was not a vacuum of unused space immediately adjacent. the current plans are much shadier and ambiguous. the atlantic yards website is now barclayscenter.com and there's only the hollow promise of construction six months after the arena is underway. i'm not sure if the arena will be a catalyst for development in the neighborhood or just a boring nassau coliseum-like vacuum that scars the neighborhood. i don't think forest city ratner has any argument as they don't even seem to have a design for anything but the arena (which is not the open on the website). -
Chekhovian,
Just on a tangential point you appear to make above...
The arena at Atlantic Yards was always going to be something like Barclays Center (or carry the name of some other sponsor). What major venues do not sell their name to sponsors these days? Atlantic Yards was the name for the entire development, and the arena was always destined to carry some corporate name.
Barclays itself has nothing to do with the shift from the original FCR + Gehry plan to something else. -
Chekhovian wrote: to get back to the subject of the atlantic yards, i was in favor of the original plan b/c it was not just an arena, but world-class residential and commercial buildings built adjacent so as to be the first urban arena (maybe with msg being the only exception) where there was not a vacuum of unused space immediately adjacent. the current plans are much shadier and ambiguous. the atlantic yards site is now barclayscenter.com and there's only the hollow promise of construction six months after the arena is underway.
What isn't so funny is that very few projects actually deliver what's promised in the beginning. I've always thought the idea sounded great, but because my entire academic career (undergrad and grad) has been dedicated to studying community development I knew from jump it was pie in the sky. It annoys me that locally elected representatives aren't more critical of these developers BEFORE these projects start.
Am I mistaken in my understanding that Forest City has no timeline on completing all phases after the initial stadium build? -
Jeffrey, what i was saying was that the website is for the arena only. i have no qualms with a corporate sponsor for an arena. i thought i remembered an FCR-sponsored website that gave an overview of the whole project, which believe it or now, was more than an arena. now it's just about the arena and features renderings of the original gehry design which is not how the arena will look (if built).
Ishtar, it depresses me that development around an arena is pie in the sky, but i'll take your word for it. i've seen it in other cities that built new stadiums, but it seemed feasible in this situation. -
I'll never forget the thill of attending football games at the Univ of Michigan in the mid 70's. Michigan has one of the largest stadiums in the country, with seating capacity at over 105,000. And at the time, a football team perenially rated in the top 10. The result was a huge gathering of the clan, one of the few times when the entire community meet face to face, eyeball to eyeball, in a frenzy of loyalty to the institution, the team, the sense of oneness that was U of M at the time. The energy was palpable and unique.
Yes, it's cool to have a special place in your special neighborhood, whether it's a bar or a coffee shop, where "everybody knows your name".
But it's equally cool to be able to be a part of a larger community, in this case, Brooklyn. Right now I sense this best at the First Saturday's event at the Brooklyn Museum. If you've been there, you know what I mean.
The proposed Barclays Center will have a seating capacity of 18,000, making it definitely the largest venue in the boro. As such it will be our best opportunity to have a sense of the larger Brooklyn community. Let's enjoy it and make it happen.
Go Blue, er, I mean Nets! -
Ah, yeah. I haven't looked for a site for the whole project recently, but if they've withdrawn info about the whole project (even just pending update to new plans) from a prior location on the web that would definitely serve to eliminate transparency from the public process, leaving just details of the (sponsored) arena out there in public view.
I get your point. -
Capt. Planet wrote: ...cool...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -
Capt. Planet wrote:
As I am expecting that I will not be able to afford tickets to see third-rate, substandard basketball played by journeymen who are living out the last of their golden athletic years I'll have to get my sense of the larger community by interacting with my likewise fiscally challenged neighbors in smaller venues.
The proposed Barclays Center will have a seating capacity of 18,000, making it definitely the largest venue in the boro. As such it will be our best opportunity to have a sense of the larger Brooklyn community. Let's enjoy it and make it happen.
Go Blue, er, I mean Nets!
How many of those 18,000 seats will be filled by Brooklyn residents? How many locals will go out and purchase season tickets because the Nets are playing down the block now instead of across two rivers? Sorry, but they are a horrible team and with the exception of a few years in the late 90's- early 00's they always have been. If the team doesn't improve substantially (and I for one don't believe they have a chance in hell of getting LeBron here) then I don't think that there will be much for Brooklyn to cheer about. -
I'm not a basketball fan either. How about the other stuff that happens in an arena?
cheesy tradeshows, circuses, biblethons, concerts etc.
Does anyone see any perks in that? -
So here's the upcoming schedule for MSG. Which of these is going to bring us all together? PBR? the NIT? For folks keeping count, 8 of the 19 are basketball (college and professional), 6 concerts, 1 comedy show, hockey (which BK won't have), 1 tennis tournament, and a couple of miscellaneous events like Bull Riding and the Dog Show.
Event : Date(s) :
Duke Blue Devils Mens Basketball Saturday, December 19, 2009, 4:00 pm
Harlem Globetrotters Friday, February 12, 2010, 7:00 pm
Jimmy V Classic Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 7:00 pm
Jingle Ball Friday, December 11, 2009, 7:30 pm
Mariah Carey Thursday, December 31, 2009, 9:00 pm
New York Knicks December 6, 2009 - April 12, 2010
New York Rangers December 6, 2009 - April 9, 2010
Phish Friday, December 4, 2009, 7:30 pm
Professional Bull Riders January 8, 2010 - January 10, 2010
Big East Mens Basketball Tournament March 9, 2010 - March 13, 2010
National Invitation Tournament March 30, 2010 - April 1, 2010
St. Johns Red Storm Mens Basketball January 13, 2010 - February 27, 2010
Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show February 15, 2010 - February 16, 2010
Eddie Izzard Saturday, January 16, 2010, 8:00 pm
Michael Buble Saturday, March 20, 2010, 8:00 pm
John Mayer February 25, 2010 - February 26, 2010
Aventura January 20, 2010 - February 1, 2010
Big East/SEC Invitational Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:00 pm
BNP Paribas Showdown Monday, March 1, 2010, 7:00 pm -
whynot and homeowner,
Not at all saying I support what FCR has done here, and merely on the subject of positive, community-building events in arenas:
To be fair I would have to mention that major high-school sports events are nothing short of awesome in major arenas. Such was the case where I grew up. Regional and State championships packed the house at major arenas. Huge groups from various towns or sections of cities represented filed in to root on their local teams.
Such events are both an incredible thrill for the players as well as lots of fun for the parents and community to attend.
And Brooklyn definitely has the high school sports talent and community to fill a place in similar manner.
But unless I am mistaken I do not get the sense that the local politicians demanded up-front that a certain amount of event dates be kept for such community events FOR FREE (to the leagues to book, but perhaps with relatively inexpensive tickets perhaps sold to spectators), in exchange for government footing the bill for so much involved here and Ratner walking away with his millions.
Just like the cable companies were forced to provide public access channels for the benefit of the community in exchange for the government letting them roll in and own the place, so should the public get a stake in the game here, quid pro quo.
I mean...the people are paying for a huge share of and bearing a huge share of risk in this thing if it happens [understatement], so just like any other major investor the public should get a piece of this for its investment just as Ratner and his investors certainly will get a huge stake and return for theirs, according to how it's currently set up.
Anyhow, when you asked about what arena events bring out the community, it occurs to me that some events do fit the bill, and that MSG's particular approach may not be the best comparison, given its expense and lack of responsibility to anyone other than the [Cablevision] Dolan family. -
MSG already provides a venue for most of those types of events already. They are host to several high school basketball tournaments, the city championships for the PSAL as well as some games for CHSAA and the independent schools in the city. The also host other community type events like the Big Apple Classic (which is taking place this weekend) which is a basketball showcase for the HBCU's (historically black colleges and universities) that have large alumni populations in NYC.
The problem as I see it is that there just isn't a demand for more space for these kinds of events. There just aren't that many events that are looking to atttract 5,000 or more spectators such that local venues can't accommodate them. The high schools play at local college gyms and at the garden, the colleges play at the garden. So even if there were a chance to get free or low-cost space, it would merely be moving events from one venue in NYC to another and again, not for Brooklyn-centric events. -
homeowner wrote: So even if there were a chance to get free or low-cost space, it would merely be moving events from one venue in NYC to another and again, not for Brooklyn-centric events.
And who do we think would win in a Dolan-Ratner show down on rights to events?
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Professional Bull Riders Jan 8 - 10 at MSG...
Who knew?
I agree, the arena won't feature a lot of bklyn-centric events; it will just be another stop or option on the tours.
...but as someone who dislikes MSG, and its owners, I've gotta admit I like the idea of it having some competition. -
Ishtar wrote: [quote=homeowner]So even if there were a chance to get free or low-cost space, it would merely be moving events from one venue in NYC to another and again, not for Brooklyn-centric events.
And who do we think would win in a Dolan-Ratner show down on rights to events?
Why we may just have come up with the Brooklyn-centric event that will bring us all together...
The Ratner-Dolan cage match!!! :shock: :cheers:
Marty can host and Jay-Z can MC. It'll be the biggest thing to hit Flatbush Avenue since Junior's. -
Look it, you bunch of cup-half-empty knuckle-heads, you get what you expect .
If you expect the kind of second-class dross that the notoriosly disfunctional (how many ways can you see the worst of male-chauvinist top down pettiness played out and still find it entertaining) Dolan family dishes out, you'll get it.
Manhattanites are known for their lack interest in their community and smug indifference to anything smacking of boosterism.
Brooklynites don't traditionally suffer from this stigma. If anything, we are known to be laughably gung-ho for our struggling boro. Let's not forget that the Dodgers, by and large, were a embarrassingly bad team, usually dwelling in the cellar and consistently losing to their big brother rivals, the Yankees. Yet Brooklynites never gave up and as we know the Dodgers did eventually beat the Yanks, not than anyone in Manhattan really cared.
All of this so say, don't compare Brooklyn to Manhattan, nor Barclays Center to MSG. We ain't Manhattan dammit, and that's why a lot of people live here, me among them. -
Capt. Planet wrote: Manhattanites are known for their lack interest in their community and smug indifference to anything smacking of boosterism.
Capt, if you think that Bruce Ratner has the slightest bit of interest in the Brooklyn community and/or is interested in boosting the borough, I've got a bridge for sale that you may be interested in... -
If we aren't Manhattan then why are "we" so gung ho on trying to bring the types of things commonly found there to Brooklyn? Many people continue to choose to live here because of the neighborhood/small scale character it provides. No need to bring an awful NBA franchise to an equally awful arena.
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Ishtar wrote: If we aren't Manhattan then why are "we" so gung ho on trying to bring the types of things commonly found there to Brooklyn? Many people continue to choose to live here because of the neighborhood/small scale character it provides. No need to bring an awful NBA franchise to an equally awful arena.
This. -
homeowner wrote: [quote=Capt. Planet]Manhattanites are known for their lack interest in their community and smug indifference to anything smacking of boosterism.
Capt, if you think that Bruce Ratner has the slightest bit of interest in the Brooklyn community and/or is interested in boosting the borough, I've got a bridge for sale that you may be interested in...
We apparently have very different opinions of Ratner. Check out his family history, his political affliliations, his personal background, etc. He's a lot more like us than about any developer I know of.
Don't ignore that Bruce Ratner was actually a city employee, Commissioner of Consumer Affairfs, under Koch.
Don't ignore the fact that the largest minority (read black female CEO) owned contractor in the country landed the multi-million dollar site preparation contract for AY.
Don't ignore that Bruce's brother, Michael, is the head of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the leading defenders of constitutional rights in country/
Don't ignore that FCR was the first developer in the East Coast to create a Community Benefit Agreement, whereby legitimate local groups with long standing track records (read ACORN, James Caldwell) were given lots of money to develop affordable housing and create community jobs.
It ain't the Dolans, believe me.
But you got to believe and you got to check out the facts, not just ride the NIMBY hysteria that's swiping this board if not the larger community. -
Ishtar wrote: If we aren't Manhattan then why are "we" so gung ho on trying to bring the types of things commonly found there to Brooklyn? Many people continue to choose to live here because of the neighborhood/small scale character it provides. No need to bring an awful NBA franchise to an equally awful arena.
As Reuben Dario, national poet of Nicaragua, once put it "Nicaragua is a small country so we have to have a big dream"
What's your big dream for Brooklyn? -
If Capt. Planet didn't have so many posts I would think he were trolling for Ratner. All that you listed only shows that he spent years building connections and positioning himself to be the first in line for government handouts. Not really like the rest of us.
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Ishtar wrote: If Capt. Planet didn't have so many posts I would think he were trolling for Ratner. All that you listed only shows that he spent years building connections and positioning himself to be the first in line for government handouts. Not really like the rest of us.
Cynic!
Howdy, Stranger!
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