Crown Heights 101
I'm close to closing on a condo on Bedford between Lincoln and St. Johns. I'm not from CH, I've lived in Sunset Park for about ten years. My wife and I have begun researching safety issues in CH.
We're having a hard time w/ crime statistics because the data covers the entire 77th and so they don't yield any insight into the western area of the precinct. We've spent the past few weekends walking around the area and generally feel like outsiders, but still safe.
I've been reading postings to this board and have to say it seems muggings and burglaries are increasing. I understand weather is getting warmer, but still; are you, the current residents, perceiving an increase in crime? Or are you becoming more diligent/vocal about reporting incidents? Or both?
Your thoughts would be helpful... I have a young family and don't want to do anything reckless.
We're having a hard time w/ crime statistics because the data covers the entire 77th and so they don't yield any insight into the western area of the precinct. We've spent the past few weekends walking around the area and generally feel like outsiders, but still safe.
I've been reading postings to this board and have to say it seems muggings and burglaries are increasing. I understand weather is getting warmer, but still; are you, the current residents, perceiving an increase in crime? Or are you becoming more diligent/vocal about reporting incidents? Or both?
Your thoughts would be helpful... I have a young family and don't want to do anything reckless.
Comments
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I think that the area where you are has come a long way very quickly. It's not fully there but will continue to make improvements.
Franklin Ave has historically been a huge drug zone but it has gotten better. There are still dealers there but people are getting more vocal about it and things are getting better.
Reading the messages here can be scary sometimes but it is actually what makes the neighborhood safer. People are talking about the issues and bringing them to the forefront so they can't be ignored. People are calling 311 and the precincts to make complaints and action is being taken.
It's not happening over night but looking back over the past couple of years the difference is huge.
This process accelerates as more concerned people like yourself move into the neighborhood and refuse to settle for the status quo. Crime persists when people ignore it, not when they speak about it and take action to solve it.
In the end you need to decide how you feel but as a whole I think things are moving in the right direction and not going backwards. The more visible the crime becomes, the closer it is to being eliminated. -
Thanks for the response.
I've read a fair amount about St.John's i.e. Crazy Lane. But haven't seen much lately. -
Ben's assessment is pretty accurate. The area is still rough around the edges, but it's changed for the better and will continue to do so. Many college-educated professionals are moving to the area to rent apartments and buy buildings. I recently posted about a Corcoran condo in the making on Eastern Pkwy between Franklin and Bedford. If Corcoran is willing to invest in the area, I consider that a positive sign.
10 years ago I never would have dreamed any of these changes possible, but I stand corrected. I can only imagine how much better things will be in another 10 years. -
Subject: Re: Crown Heights 101
eBR3ND4N wrote: I'm close to closing on a condo on Bedford between Lincoln and St. Johns. I'm not from CH, I've lived in Sunset Park for about ten years. My wife and I have begun researching safety issues in CH.
We're having a hard time w/ crime statistics because the data covers the entire 77th and so they don't yield any insight into the western area of the precinct. We've spent the past few weekends walking around the area and generally feel like outsiders, but still safe.
I've been reading postings to this board and have to say it seems muggings and burglaries are increasing. I understand weather is getting warmer, but still; are you, the current residents, perceiving an increase in crime? Or are you becoming more diligent/vocal about reporting incidents? Or both?
Posted below are the latest crime statistics for the 77th Pct.
While they do cover all of the 77 which extends from Flatbush to Ralph Ave., and thus are not precisely in just the western half of the community, they do reflect a decrease in both robberies and burglaries.
For the 77th Pct. which covers Flatbush to Ralph, EPW to Alantic, here's the scoop versus last year year to date
'06 '05
Murder 8 6
Rape 13 3
Robbery 130 166
Felony
assault 115 144
Burglary 96 125
Grand
larceny 128 132
Gr.larceny
auto 68 61
Overall, crime is down 12.4%, according to the precinct.
Looks like rape is having a very bad year, and murder as well.
Interestingly today's NY Times states that crime is down in the city overall, but only by 4.5%, somewhat less than Crown Heights. Murders, on the otherhand, were up in the city overall 12% versus 33% in the 77th pct. Bear in mind that of those murders, three are from the arson on Pacific Street, and were not caused by shooting or stabbing. I'm sure that doesn't make the family on Pacific feel any better but it should make us less afraid of being shot or stabbed.
Your thoughts would be helpful... I have a young family and don't want to do anything reckless. -
Is there any story behind the doubling of rapes? Has the way they're reported changed? Or are some significant portion of them related to a single anomalous incident, as was the case the the arson-related murders?
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... sorry, quadrupling of rapes...
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Subject: safety on Bedford Avenue
I am assuming that you are planning to buy unit 2C of the 1520 Bedford Avenue Condos. We actually gave in a bid for one of the units but didn't sign the contract in the end as we felt there was too much risk involved. A good overview on this was posted not long ago in the forum of the Brownstoner:
http://brownstoner.com/forum/archives/2006/05/whats_going_wro.html
We are currently living 4 blocks West of Bedford Avenue and I agree with most of the comments made here. However, safety in neighborhoods such as Crown Heights is depending on new real estate development and the picture doesn't look that good. When we looked at the Bedford Condos the market was offering mortgages more than 1% below market rates as CH qualifies for special programs. These instruments are all gone and with the real estate market slowing new developments may not be realized as planned. Therefore, the safety situation will stay as it is for a couple of years with occassional shootings around the block and some awkward moments when leaving the Franklin Avenue stop at night. -
We just moved to St. John's off Nostrand. And our neighbors have been welcoming..not all but quite a few. We've also hired some local folks to do some work on our house. One of our Rasta workers told us just yesterday (unprompted) that we are fine and safe in the neighborhood and that the problems almost always exist between people who already know each other and there is not much random violence..
That said, I am calling 311 anytime something crops up, like noise and like the graffiti on the building across the street... -
Subject: Mugging with gun on Park Place btw Vandy and Underhill
I heard 2 people were the victims of a mugging in broad daylight (during the evening) this week. There was a gun invovlved by no one was hurt -
Subject: Re: safety on Bedford Avenue
guestBedfordCondo wrote: I am assuming that you are planning to buy unit 2C of the 1520 Bedford Avenue Condos. We actually gave in a bid for one of the units but didn't sign the contract in the end as we felt there was too much risk involved.
Top-notch dective work.
Also, are you talking about invenstment risk, safty risk or both? -
eBR3ND4N wrote: ... sorry, quadrupling of rapes...
Interesting, isnt' it. I'm wondering why rapes are up while everything else is down. Rather odd, wouldn't you agree.
One possible explanation is that rapes were under-reported previously. This statistic may say more about women's rights than crime. Or not. Who knows. But that it is against the flow of the other crimes is clear. -
Subject: Re: Mugging with gun on Park Place btw Vandy and Underhill
Daisy wrote: I heard 2 people were the victims of a mugging in broad daylight (during the evening) this week. There was a gun invovlved by no one was hurt
After having lived on Park Place between Nostrand and NY for 4 years, with a wife and two teenage boys, I can only say, seeing is believing.
As was noted earlier, much of the crime in CH is among people who know each other. IF you and yours don't hang with a criminal element, then you're probably about as safe here as Prospect Heights or Park Slope.
My sons have had a few encounters with local "bad guys" trying to intimidate them, but mostly it was just show. They've learned like most locals where not to go and what people to avoid.
Unfortunately I think a lot of the really seriously bad guys go to Park Slope to commit their crimes. As professional criminals, they have more sense than to rob their poor neighbors who have guns and also don't have any money. Far easier to pick on a yuppie in Park Slope who has more money and less attitude. -
Subject: Bedford Condos/ differents risks involved
I was talking about both, investment risk and safety risk.
1. Investment Risk
The market is taking a dive and we know that real estate prices move in very long cycles. It will take at least five years until you will make a gain on your investment in this neighborhood. This will be in particular re-inforced by the fact that new real estate developments in CH won't be realized for quite a while. Rental prices in CH are still low and there is no way that you can rent out your unit for a price that would cover your mortgage expenses. You will stuck in this apartment for quite a while.
2. Safety Risk
I agree that the majority of the people who live in CH are extremely friendly and welcoming to new residents and that the bad guys mainly have arguments with other bad guys. However, many long-time homeowners in the area have sold at very high prices and moved out of the hood.This means that the demographics are changing. Some developers/ landlords have also aggressively kicked out long-time residents or not renewed their application for subsidized housing. This has caused resentments towards new residents.
Nobody can tell me that this will not cause conflicts. When there is a mugging in PH, the cops will flock around the block for a week to make everybody feel safer. They don't show up in CH for longer than a couple of minutes.
And why should the bad guys go to the "yuppies" in Park Slope if they can have it now at home in an area that is much more familiar to them.
Good luck for being a pioneer!!! -
Subject: Re: Bedford Condos/ differents risks involved
guestbedfordcondo wrote: I was talking about both, investment risk and safety risk.
I agree that the demographics are changing. Sure this can cause some resentment but as has been noted previously, most crime is btwn people who know each other not against the new people moving into the area due to this resentment.
1. Investment Risk
The market is taking a dive and we know that real estate prices move in very long cycles. It will take at least five years until you will make a gain on your investment in this neighborhood. This will be in particular re-inforced by the fact that new real estate developments in CH won't be realized for quite a while. Rental prices in CH are still low and there is no way that you can rent out your unit for a price that would cover your mortgage expenses. You will stuck in this apartment for quite a while.
2. Safety Risk
I agree that the majority of the people who live in CH are extremely friendly and welcoming to new residents and that the bad guys mainly have arguments with other bad guys. However, many long-time homeowners in the area have sold at very high prices and moved out of the hood.This means that the demographics are changing. Some developers/ landlords have also aggressively kicked out long-time residents or not renewed their application for subsidized housing. This has caused resentments towards new residents.
Nobody can tell me that this will not cause conflicts. When there is a mugging in PH, the cops will flock around the block for a week to make everybody feel safer. They don't show up in CH for longer than a couple of minutes.
And why should the bad guys go to the "yuppies" in Park Slope if they can have it now at home in an area that is much more familiar to them.
Good luck for being a pioneer!!!
Sure, there may be conflicts but I don't see this resulting in a decrease in safety, I see them as minor things because people may be upset.
The changing demographics that you mention will continue to happen regardless of the real estate market. Crime will go down, police will pay more attention because people will demand it. All of this will minimize the investment risk. Even if prices in the broader market go down they can still go up if there is a significant change to a neighborhood, the type of change you describe.
So my thoughts are that the investment risk is minimal as the wheels of change are already in motion and will continue and that the safety risk is lessened by the day as the demographics change and the new residents demand more attention from police. -
Subject: Re: Bedford Condos/ differents risks involved
guestbedfordcondo wrote: I was talking about both, investment risk and safety risk.
Here's my experience:
1. Investment Risk
The market is taking a dive and we know that real estate prices move in very long cycles. It will take at least five years until you will make a gain on your investment in this neighborhood. This will be in particular re-inforced by the fact that new real estate developments in CH won't be realized for quite a while. Rental prices in CH are still low and there is no way that you can rent out your unit for a price that would cover your mortgage expenses. You will stuck in this apartment for quite a while.
2. Safety Risk
I agree that the majority of the people who live in CH are extremely friendly and welcoming to new residents and that the bad guys mainly have arguments with other bad guys. However, many long-time homeowners in the area have sold at very high prices and moved out of the hood.This means that the demographics are changing. Some developers/ landlords have also aggressively kicked out long-time residents or not renewed their application for subsidized housing. This has caused resentments towards new residents.
Nobody can tell me that this will not cause conflicts. When there is a mugging in PH, the cops will flock around the block for a week to make everybody feel safer. They don't show up in CH for longer than a couple of minutes.
And why should the bad guys go to the "yuppies" in Park Slope if they can have it now at home in an area that is much more familiar to them.
Good luck for being a pioneer!!!
When I first attended a meeting of the block association on my block four years ago, middle class homeowners were a novelty and more an object of curiousity than of concern.
Last week I attended a meeting of the same block association and the diffence was very informative. Now there were two newer home owners at the meeting, both relatively affluent. The old members in attendance were very interested in pointing out the steps they had taken in stopping the "hanging out" that had given the block a bad name.
My sense was that everyone was aware that the old ways were no longer appropriate. Sure enough when I walked by the building on the corner where a lot of the hanging out has occurred, there were several large signs stating "no loitering" and the residents (this is a limited equity coop) had put in a video camera and a big sign "you are being video taped".
It is really gratifying to see the n'hood improve and see the good citizens get the upperhand for a change, after years of fighting a losing battle with the local knuckleheads. -
Thank you all for your comments. I'll see you around the neighborhood.
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I have been living on St Mark's for over a year now and never had a problem. Bedford Ave can be a pleasant ave to walk down (or up depending on your perspective) However, most of the messages regarding your post can be decoded as living in fear while having an uneasy feeling residing in a Black neighborhood. Just re-read the replied posts with an objective view and you'll see what I mean. For a newcomer, "Bad Guys, Drugs, Muggings, Sketchy and Awkward Moments", all become very synonomous with the certain demographics of all who currently reside here or hangs out around the area.
As mentioned in some replies, there are older, working class people who have lived in the area for years and I'm sure they have stories to tell, good and bad.
It is important that once this neighborhood becomes the next Park Slope, WilliamsBurg, or Ft. Green/Clinton Washington that we all (Black, White, Latino, Caribbean, Asian, working slob or working "professional" ) come together and communicate and not just hide in our homes and secretly talk about how one (as one put it "college educated adults") may take over the neighborhood while the others (knuckleheads) are stirring up fear.
And note that with Condo money comes condo luxury - which means everything revolving your accessibility, interest and consumption can and will change things for those who cannot afford the same things or are not consumer educated enough to know the difference.
It is important that this area become a mixed income, mixed culture neighborhood, but let's not just focus on fear of crime. We all know the history of this country which is rooted in fear and crime, from the political arena to the hoodlums of the streets. Now it seems most working pros and transplants have become so passive that anything scares them. This new psuedo-culture has provided us with so much pretentious privilge that we're so terrified of having anything taken from us. But there is nothing funny about bodily harm, assault or rape. I do see your concern with these issues.
However this is New York City - Brooklyn no less!! This city is legendary for being tough, having attitude and watching your back and your neighbors.
But I need not go on a tangent....Welcome to the neighborhood, neighbor. -
Great post, Native. My family and I move in on Friday, Sterling between Franklin and Bedford, and we're looking forward to being part of the 'hood.
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Subject: St. Marks
I'm so glad Masha decided to ask that question. I, too, am moving to this area- actually I'm unclear on the exact name of the area- and have been trolling the boards looking at crime announcements, etc...
That being said, and I know Vanderbilt is supposed to be the new hot zone in a couple of years, but what about St. Marks?
Any input at all would be so much appreciated! I'm about to close, also, and I'm a single girl living alone and don't want to make a mistake. -
Subject: Re: St. Marks
SB wrote: I'm so glad Masha decided to ask that question. I, too, am moving to this area- actually I'm unclear on the exact name of the area- and have been trolling the boards looking at crime announcements, etc...
if its near vanderbilt and st marks it should be ph. if its past washington ave on st marks. than its ch.
That being said, and I know Vanderbilt is supposed to be the new hot zone in a couple of years, but what about St. Marks?
Any input at all would be so much appreciated! I'm about to close, also, and I'm a single girl living alone and don't want to make a mistake.
washington ave is the western border of ph and eastern border of ch. -
SB, I'm also a single woman living alone (well, with a roomie and a cat) and I've had a great year in CH so far. Sometimes it's really loud, sometimes there are fights on the street... but I've had many positive experiences overall, and this is by far the friendliest neighborhood I've ever lived in. Not everyone is thrilled to see me, but I've had great interactions with great people and that makes such a difference.
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Thanks so much for that. I was a little worried at first, but the more I look around and actually see the people (as opposed to the news stories) I feel fantastic!
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SB wrote: Thanks so much for that. I was a little worried at first, but the more I look around and actually see the people (as opposed to the news stories) I feel fantastic!
Oh, I'm glad!
I really think it all begins with us... a smile and a "good morning" goes such a long way. My smiles are often met with the biggest grins and nods, and it totally makes my day, and makes this feel even more like home.
Welcome to the neighborhood!
Howdy, Stranger!
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