Guy Threatening Suicide Online

danielle123 · December 2009

A guy is threatening to commit suicide today and has posted on craiglist asking for someone to give him a gun to do so (the post has since been flagged and removed - not sure how that will help the guy but here is the post above it that references the original):
http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/act/1514236091.html

Despite the obvious that this could be a hoax, it also could be real. Since I found out about this, I've called Craigslist, 911, 311, LifeNet and Gunstoppers/Crimestoppers. None of them knows how to deal with this type of situation because there is no physical location at which they can reach this guy. They all said that they would not email the guy.

I asked the person I reached at CL in SF if they had a procedure for how to deal with this type of post and, at first, he said, "no," and when I pressed him that this can't be the first time someone posted a threat like this, he agreed and said they did have a best practices but that he wouldn't tell me what it was. (Right.)

I called the NYTimes. They may do a story on how there seems to be a lack of procedure or understanding for how to deal with this type of situation (for future reference and/or to force folks to put a procedure in place, maybe).

Any other thoughts?

modsquad · December 2009

It has become very clear over the last year that we have a finite amount of money to spread around and economically, it doesn't make sense to spend money or resources on this. I can't even imagine what the legal ramifications would be "to force folks to put a procedure in place". That same effort and money would be better spent filling potholes or putting up more street lights. That would save more lives than sending in a Swat team of psychiatrists to rescue the occasional suicidal blogger typing from his Barcalounger.
As a sidebar, I'm not even sure if what this guy did was a "suicide attempt" legally. It's hardly the same as standing on the edge of a building.

danielle123 · December 2009

Mod - the posts I've seen you make are usually pretty reasonable. However, I find it hard to believe that you value filling potholes over possibly saving someone's life. (Really??)

In addition to the moral obligations here, the poster was attempting to commit 2 crimes: 1) suicide is illegal in most places; and 2) attempting to have someone transfer possession of a gun to him without proper licensing.

Also, attempting to commit a crime is a crime (e.g., "attempted burglary"). FYI.

modsquad · December 2009

danielle:
following are definitions of burglary and attempted burglary. Both require actions associated with the act thereof or the attempted act thereof. For me to write on Brooklynian that I'm going to break into Key Food tonight would not be a crime in and of itself.
BURGLARY DEFINED.
1 4 Any person, having the intent to commit a felony, assault,
1 5 criminal mischief, or theft therein, who, having no right,
1 6 license or privilege to do so, enters an occupied structure,
1 7 such occupied structure not being open to the public, or who
1 8 remains therein after it is closed to the public or after the
1 9 person's right, license or privilege to be there has expired,
1 10 or any person having such intent who breaks an occupied
1 11 structure, commits burglary.
1 12 Sec. 2. Section 713.2, Code 1997, is amended to read as
1 13 follows:
1 14 713.2 ATTEMPTED BURGLARY DEFINED.
1 15 Any person, having the intent to commit a felony, assault,
1 16 criminal mischief, or theft therein, who, having no right,
1 17 license, or privilege to do so, attempts to enter an occupied
1 18 structure, the occupied structure not being open to the
1 19 public, or who attempts to remain therein after it is closed
1 20 to the public or after the person's right, license, or
1 21 privilege to be there has expired, or any person having such
1 22 intent who attempts to break an occupied structure, commits
1 23 attempted burglary.

Based on these definitions I think the act of "typing" about a suicide attempt is not legally a "suicide attempt".
Regarding the gun. Where does the OP say that he wants an illegal transfer of a gun for his laptop etc.? That is speculation on your part.
We can't let morality cloud what we are allowed to do legally. No matter what the OP appears to be typing about, there are laws that protect him and us from undue intrusion and I'd sooner keep it that way.

usually pretty reasonable.?

HA!

shhhush · December 2009

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5203176.ece

A 19-year-old man in Florida committed suicide live on the internet as hundreds of web surfers watched - taunting him and offering encouragement.

Abraham K. Biggs, from Broward County, Florida, announced his intention on an online forum, posted a suicide note on another and then took an overdose of pills in front of his webcam, broadcasting his final moments on Justin.tv.

danielle123 · December 2009

[Edited for clarification - I left out the phrase re assisting suicide]

Modsquad,

It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the law is.

I don't think there has been a NY court decision on whether an online posting can be considered a suicide attempt. (If you have a citation, please post it here.)

Also, asking for a gun to be transferred across state lines to assist suicide, is illegal. It doesn't mattter if, as you think, the poster wants to trade a gun for his laptop. The key issue is that he wants someone to transport a gun across state lines to assists his suicide, and that is illegal.

Regardless, do you really think that filling potholes is more important than whether someone commits suicide?

danielle123 · December 2009

shhhush wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5203176.ece

A 19-year-old man in Florida committed suicide live on the internet as hundreds of web surfers watched - taunting him and offering encouragement.

Abraham K. Biggs, from Broward County, Florida, announced his intention on an online forum, posted a suicide note on another and then took an overdose of pills in front of his webcam, broadcasting his final moments on Justin.tv.

I hadn't heard of this. That's horrifying.

modsquad · December 2009

Does anyone own a gun that I could use to kill myself?

Danielle, How can the above statement be interpreted as illegal? He isn't even asking to purchase or buy a gun, let alone transfer a gun across state lines.

danielle123 wrote: The key issue is that he wants someone to transport a gun across state lines, and that is illegal.

Even if what you say is true who would be breaking the law? Not the OP, the person doing the "transporting"!

danielle123 wrote:
I don't think there has been a NY court decision on whether an online posting can be considered a suicide attempt. (If you have a citation, please post it here.)

The key word here is "attempt".

Attempt to commit a crime (Law) such an intentional preparatory act as will apparently result, if not extrinsically hindered, in a crime which it was designed to effect.

I go back to my definitions of "attempted" burglary above. OP is not "attempting" suicide, OP is "typing" about attempting suicide.
A Court would never prohibit the posting of a suicide attempt because "posting" or "typing" would not meet the definition of "attempting " suicide. This is my point, because how would the law differentiate between a potential suicide and someone who is writing for his Creative Writing 101 class. No Court citation would exist because the Court is not in the business of telling us what is legal, only what is not.

You're asking for a "procedure" that forces people to take an action. My point is that no law has been broken and any law made based on OP's posting would have serious consequences on our right to privacy and freedom of speech.

Regarding potholes? Based on the theory of Freakenomics, and given the number of online suicides (one proven in the history of the internet) verses road deaths (30,000 + a year), yes I believe the filling of potholes and/or putting up street lights would save more lives.

modsquad · December 2009

shhhush wrote:
A 19-year-old man in Florida committed suicide live on the internet as hundreds of web surfers watched - taunting him and offering encouragement.

Danielle, by your standard, (if blogging about a suicide attempt is illegal), the mere encouragement of a potential suicide online would be considered assisting in a suicide, a felony. The same thing happens in real time. Whenever a crowd is drawn to some guy being talked down from a ledge of a building, there are plenty of "sophisticates" yelling Jump! Not pretty but a part of human nature. Should they be arrested for assisting if the guy actually jumps?

danielle123 · December 2009

Modsquad, you make some good points. (I tried to quote you here but I'm encountering a glitch when trying to type my responses to you after your quote.)

Having said that, what I'm trying to do is come up with a reason why someone might have to act in a circumstance like this that hopefully wouldn't offend my sensibilities or yours. The different folks I called said they weren't going to do anything, some because this was something novel to them and they didn't know what they COULD do. If a procedure were to be put into place, then people would be able to act on the procedure (for instance, the suicide prevention org I called said they only know how to act if I had the guy's phone number or an address; I asked if they could email the guy asking him to call them and she said they've never done that.)

As you know, there are cases where speech is not legal such as yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theatre or threatening or inciting violence against the president or judges (there's a case right now against a NJ guy, Hal Turner, who was inciting violence against some Chicago judges online). Also, the woman who had her daughter bully a girl online until the girl committed suicide was found guilty of a misdemeanor (if memory serves me) because there was no law pertaining to online bullying on the books that the prosecutor could use against her. It's an interesting area of the law and legislatures are continuing to grapple with it.

And, no, I don't think people who yell "jump" when someone is on a ledge should be arrested (though I do think it's appalling). However, if they bring a gun from Brooklyn (where the guy posted to on CL) to Phily (where the guy lived) to help him commit suicide, that's a whole different ball of wax.

P.S. I prefer your cat avatar. ;-)

Guy Threatening Suicide Online

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