HOW BAD? REAL BAD.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/nyregion/19yards.html
July 19, 2006
Measuring a Project’s Shadow, and Its Burden
By NICHOLAS CONFESSORE
A new school’s worth of classrooms would be needed to handle all the children. Dozens of crowded intersections would be choked with more traffic. Brownstone neighborhoods would find themselves in shadow. The city’s sewer and water systems would face new challenges. And good luck getting a parking space on game day.
These were among the most striking findings of a 1,400-page study released yesterday that for the first time lays out all the potential effects of the proposed Atlantic Yards project, an 8.7-million-square-foot residential, commercial, and arena development that would spread over 22 acres near Downtown Brooklyn.
The study, released by the Empire State Development Corporation, was accompanied by a project plan that estimated the cost of the development at $4.2 billion, much more than the original cost, $2.5 billion.
Residents have known for more than two years that something big may be coming to the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues, something that would affect their lives and neighborhoods in countless ways. But until yesterday, they did not have a picture of the details.
The draft environmental impact study provides the clearest view yet of what the Atlantic Yards would do for Brooklyn, and to it, with a welter of diagrams and cold hard facts.
Some of them are sure to be controversial. According to the study, the project would worsen what is already a tangled web of traffic. When it is fully built a decade from now, 68 of 93 intersections included in the study, all within about a mile of the project, would have significantly more congestion at one or more peak hours, most markedly during the morning rush hours and after Saturday games at the 18,000-seat basketball arena for the Nets.
The tallest of the project’s 16 buildings would block many views of the Williamsburgh Savings Bank. The new buildings would also throw more of the surrounding neighborhoods into shadow during the day, while street-level signs would create a new burst of neon at night, concentrated at the commercial corridors on the project’s western tip.
The project’s thousands of residents would impose new demands on the city’s sewage and storm drain systems, and include enough children to fill a new elementary and intermediate school.
Changes to the project and the city infrastructure supporting it may eliminate or minimize some of the predicted problems, the project’s backers have promised. In exchange, they say, Atlantic Yards would create 6,860 units of housing, thousands of construction jobs, and nearly $1.5 billion in city and state tax revenue beyond the amount needed to recoup the government’s contribution to the project.
“It’s a project of enormous magnitude, something that certainly will be important for the future and the economy of the city and state,†said Charles A. Gargano, the chairman of the development corporation, which is sponsoring the project.
The project’s developer, Forest City Ratner Companies, is the development partner of The New York Times Company in building its new headquarters on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan. The study was commissioned by the development corporation and paid for by Forest City Ratner, as required by law.
The study found that if all the project’s children attended a primary or intermediate school within half a mile of their new home, the existing schools would be “over capacity,†and new satellite classrooms in less crowded schools, new school buildings or other measures would be needed.
In a detailed examination of the shadows cast by the new buildings in each season, the report found that new shadows would be cast on many existing parks, as well as on open space incorporated into the new project, “throughout the year,†with a “significant adverse impact†for only one such area, near the Atlantic Terminal public housing complex.
The study also included extensive mitigation measures that the developer said would alleviate most of the project’s negative impacts. An ecologically friendly storm-water-capture system centered on the arena’s roof, for instance, is expected to help prevent sewage overflows.
The report’s release sets into motion a public comment period during which the project is likely to come under the closest scrutiny it has yet received, before a final vote by the development corporation’s board this fall. Should the development corporation approve the project, a prospect that appears likely, it will face a vote by the Public Authorities Control Board, the state entity that eventually derailed the West Side stadium project last year.
Critics of Atlantic Yards have questioned whether the scope of the impact study was comprehensive enough, and may choose to fight the project in court on those grounds. The City Council, which has no formal role in approving Atlantic Yards, announced yesterday that it would pay for an independent review of the study, at the behest of the Council of Brooklyn Neighborhoods, a community group, and Councilwoman Letitia James, a leading Atlantic Yards opponent.
Opponents have already promised a vigorous legal struggle against the development corporation’s efforts to condemn the small amount of property that Forest City Ratner has not been able to acquire privately. Those efforts, in effect, began yesterday with the corporation’s formal declaration that the blocks on which the project would be built meet the state’s definition of “blighted,†and thus qualify for eminent domain.
Critics of the project complained yesterday that the 60-day public-comment period was too short to allow residents enough time to wade through the environmental study. Others questioned why it had been released in the middle of the summer, when the borough’s community boards are in recess.
“The E.S.D.C. is making a mockery of what has already been a completely flawed process,†said Daniel Goldstein, the spokesman for Develop Don’t Destroy Brooklyn, an umbrella group for opponents of the project.
At a press conference yesterday, Mr. Gargano, the development corporation’s chairman, tried to deflect criticism of the project’s scale, one of the main issues cited by Brooklyn residents. When asked whether he thought the project could be made smaller, he replied, “I don’t think it can be.†Later, however, he gave a slightly different answer, saying that though the developer would prefer to keep the project at 8.7 million square feet, the development corporation would contemplate reductions during the public comment period.
James P. Stuckey, the Forest City executive in charge of Atlantic Yards, said criticism of the project’s scale and other attributes came from “some people, who live close in, not liking tall buildings.â€Â
“And I have to tell you that for most people who need affordable housing, that’s just not an argument that washes,†he said.
Those who oppose the project said that the documents released by the development corporation gave them yet more ammunition. According to the general project plan for Atlantic Yards, the project’s cost, which was originally estimated at $2.5 billion and was reassessed at $3.5 billion last year, is now $4.2 billion, which Mr. Goldstein called “bloated.â€Â
Mr. Stuckey said the increases stemmed from rising construction costs, higher land acquisition costs, and a more detailed accounting of costs than was possible at earlier stages in the project’s development.
The general project plan also projects that Atlantic Yards will generate a total of $1.91 billion in total tax revenue over 30 years, calculated as net present value. The city and state together would contribute about $500 million to the project, a mix of direct payments, tax exemptions and financing costs. Overall, according to those projections, the development as currently proposed would produce about $1.4 billion in net tax revenues to the city and state.
July 19, 2006
Measuring a Project’s Shadow, and Its Burden
By NICHOLAS CONFESSORE
A new school’s worth of classrooms would be needed to handle all the children. Dozens of crowded intersections would be choked with more traffic. Brownstone neighborhoods would find themselves in shadow. The city’s sewer and water systems would face new challenges. And good luck getting a parking space on game day.
These were among the most striking findings of a 1,400-page study released yesterday that for the first time lays out all the potential effects of the proposed Atlantic Yards project, an 8.7-million-square-foot residential, commercial, and arena development that would spread over 22 acres near Downtown Brooklyn.
The study, released by the Empire State Development Corporation, was accompanied by a project plan that estimated the cost of the development at $4.2 billion, much more than the original cost, $2.5 billion.
Residents have known for more than two years that something big may be coming to the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues, something that would affect their lives and neighborhoods in countless ways. But until yesterday, they did not have a picture of the details.
The draft environmental impact study provides the clearest view yet of what the Atlantic Yards would do for Brooklyn, and to it, with a welter of diagrams and cold hard facts.
Some of them are sure to be controversial. According to the study, the project would worsen what is already a tangled web of traffic. When it is fully built a decade from now, 68 of 93 intersections included in the study, all within about a mile of the project, would have significantly more congestion at one or more peak hours, most markedly during the morning rush hours and after Saturday games at the 18,000-seat basketball arena for the Nets.
The tallest of the project’s 16 buildings would block many views of the Williamsburgh Savings Bank. The new buildings would also throw more of the surrounding neighborhoods into shadow during the day, while street-level signs would create a new burst of neon at night, concentrated at the commercial corridors on the project’s western tip.
The project’s thousands of residents would impose new demands on the city’s sewage and storm drain systems, and include enough children to fill a new elementary and intermediate school.
Changes to the project and the city infrastructure supporting it may eliminate or minimize some of the predicted problems, the project’s backers have promised. In exchange, they say, Atlantic Yards would create 6,860 units of housing, thousands of construction jobs, and nearly $1.5 billion in city and state tax revenue beyond the amount needed to recoup the government’s contribution to the project.
“It’s a project of enormous magnitude, something that certainly will be important for the future and the economy of the city and state,†said Charles A. Gargano, the chairman of the development corporation, which is sponsoring the project.
The project’s developer, Forest City Ratner Companies, is the development partner of The New York Times Company in building its new headquarters on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan. The study was commissioned by the development corporation and paid for by Forest City Ratner, as required by law.
The study found that if all the project’s children attended a primary or intermediate school within half a mile of their new home, the existing schools would be “over capacity,†and new satellite classrooms in less crowded schools, new school buildings or other measures would be needed.
In a detailed examination of the shadows cast by the new buildings in each season, the report found that new shadows would be cast on many existing parks, as well as on open space incorporated into the new project, “throughout the year,†with a “significant adverse impact†for only one such area, near the Atlantic Terminal public housing complex.
The study also included extensive mitigation measures that the developer said would alleviate most of the project’s negative impacts. An ecologically friendly storm-water-capture system centered on the arena’s roof, for instance, is expected to help prevent sewage overflows.
The report’s release sets into motion a public comment period during which the project is likely to come under the closest scrutiny it has yet received, before a final vote by the development corporation’s board this fall. Should the development corporation approve the project, a prospect that appears likely, it will face a vote by the Public Authorities Control Board, the state entity that eventually derailed the West Side stadium project last year.
Critics of Atlantic Yards have questioned whether the scope of the impact study was comprehensive enough, and may choose to fight the project in court on those grounds. The City Council, which has no formal role in approving Atlantic Yards, announced yesterday that it would pay for an independent review of the study, at the behest of the Council of Brooklyn Neighborhoods, a community group, and Councilwoman Letitia James, a leading Atlantic Yards opponent.
Opponents have already promised a vigorous legal struggle against the development corporation’s efforts to condemn the small amount of property that Forest City Ratner has not been able to acquire privately. Those efforts, in effect, began yesterday with the corporation’s formal declaration that the blocks on which the project would be built meet the state’s definition of “blighted,†and thus qualify for eminent domain.
Critics of the project complained yesterday that the 60-day public-comment period was too short to allow residents enough time to wade through the environmental study. Others questioned why it had been released in the middle of the summer, when the borough’s community boards are in recess.
“The E.S.D.C. is making a mockery of what has already been a completely flawed process,†said Daniel Goldstein, the spokesman for Develop Don’t Destroy Brooklyn, an umbrella group for opponents of the project.
At a press conference yesterday, Mr. Gargano, the development corporation’s chairman, tried to deflect criticism of the project’s scale, one of the main issues cited by Brooklyn residents. When asked whether he thought the project could be made smaller, he replied, “I don’t think it can be.†Later, however, he gave a slightly different answer, saying that though the developer would prefer to keep the project at 8.7 million square feet, the development corporation would contemplate reductions during the public comment period.
James P. Stuckey, the Forest City executive in charge of Atlantic Yards, said criticism of the project’s scale and other attributes came from “some people, who live close in, not liking tall buildings.â€Â
“And I have to tell you that for most people who need affordable housing, that’s just not an argument that washes,†he said.
Those who oppose the project said that the documents released by the development corporation gave them yet more ammunition. According to the general project plan for Atlantic Yards, the project’s cost, which was originally estimated at $2.5 billion and was reassessed at $3.5 billion last year, is now $4.2 billion, which Mr. Goldstein called “bloated.â€Â
Mr. Stuckey said the increases stemmed from rising construction costs, higher land acquisition costs, and a more detailed accounting of costs than was possible at earlier stages in the project’s development.
The general project plan also projects that Atlantic Yards will generate a total of $1.91 billion in total tax revenue over 30 years, calculated as net present value. The city and state together would contribute about $500 million to the project, a mix of direct payments, tax exemptions and financing costs. Overall, according to those projections, the development as currently proposed would produce about $1.4 billion in net tax revenues to the city and state.
Comments
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Interesting.
Read this book:
Major League Losers: The Real Cost of Sports and Who's Paying for It
http://tinyurl.com/j4bjg
Brooklyn ( you and me) will never see dime one of this supposed "revenue". These are "my people" you are talking about ( Developers and Architects). I had to convince a developer client today that a 2'-0 and 75'-0 space is not occupiable and cannot be rented to a tenant. Seriously.
But Bob, tell them what they did win:
1. Additional traffic and crowded trains during events (noise included)
2. A lovely, souless, glass box "downtown" that will be about as warm as the great wall of China (additional 75 mph wind tunnels included at no extra cost).
3. More trash and the fresh stench of unrine near your stoop from more people who don't live in your neighborhood using it as a detour.
4. Marty Markowitz at a photo op promoting himself again.
5. Here is my favorite: INCREASED TAXES in a few years to help run the place or pay for some part of it....that will still be under construction....while the developers get richer!!!!
6. No housing that you- or anyone you know personally- will qualify for nor can afford. (family of 5 making $38,300 a year or a milionaire). -
3. More trash and the fresh stench of unrine near your stoop from more people who don't live in your neighborhood using it as a detour.
Let me get this straight. With your Nostradamus-like powers you predict that someone driving to or from the arena would, in your case, use Lincoln between Underhill and Washington as a shortcut, stop, get out in front of your building and "unrinate" on your stoop?
Of all the absurd predictions I've heard about this development that surely wins the prize. Even without all those Nets fans pissing on your stoop, I walk down that street almost everyday and it's not exactly stench free right now.
Am I supposed to take anything you say seriously, or are you just interested in ranting? -
My Aunt Lives in Ft. Green - about 2 blocks away and so does my cousin.
Their neighborhood saw significant traffic gain and all that goes with it with Atlantic center becuase of "short-cutting". The door prizes listed above are probably limited to people n the immediate area - I don't qualify
But I want to be more specific with my slighty tongue-in-cheek analysis:
After sporting events ( and before) at arenas in downtown areas (re: MADISON SQ. GARDEN) you have the ususal pedstrian traffic and a significant number of non residents in the area. In itslef this isn't horrible. But when the events let out, there are definitely many people in the neighborhood ( sometimes drunk and loud) who normally wouldn't be there. The result of this can be any number of things. I used to wake up in DC with trash and other things in my yard after such events.
Also, coming from downtown DC where they built the MCI center a few years ago for the amazing Wizards - the predictions came true....Also, if
They aren't such a stretch. And yes, the smell of urine is strong this summer already.
One of the things ive found that make Brooklyn special is that in places like the Park, it is mostly residents. I think that makes it differnt from Central Park in many ways. I can feel the difference. its not sleepy hollow, but nice.
P.S.:
I also do site analysis and traffic study in my profession...so,um...yea. -
Just for fun...
-Traffic concern is legitimate, not a deal breaker, but certainly will cause congestion. I suggest taking public transport which is better for the environment and cheaper.
1. Additional traffic and crowded trains during events (noise included)
As for crowds, I often have to walk around that area late at night and the desolation is not something I will miss.
Also, I wonder where all those people will shop and eat....? (see below)2. A lovely, souless, glass box "downtown" that will be about as warm as the great wall of China (additional 75 mph wind tunnels included at no extra cost).
-Riiiight, I'll really miss those warm, soulful railyards and graffiti covered buildings.3. More trash and the fresh stench of unrine near your stoop from more people who don't live in your neighborhood using it as a detour.
-This has already been addressed nicely.4. Marty Markowitz at a photo op promoting himself again.
-This is your complaint? Who cares? Better than D Goldstein, anyway.5. Here is my favorite: INCREASED TAXES in a few years to help run the place or pay for some part of it....that will still be under construction....while the developers get richer!!!!
-Interesting theory. I guess the $1.4B the city is expected to earn on this project will be embezzled by our billionaire mayor after he regrets giving away his riches to charity? Oh, and btw that figure doesn't even include the gigantic infusion of consumer cash into the local economy, all of which will be taxed as well, and more importantly will be fantastic for area businesses.
-The market units will be similar to other market level rents in the area, and the last time I checked FG/PH are not crammed full of millionaires. Also, why do you assume no one on this board knows any poor people, or similarly that no one is rich? You're clearly wrong on both counts. And since many of us are looking to buy or rent and have no option but to do so at fair market value, we'll benefit greatly from the sudden increase in housing.
6. No housing that you- or anyone you know personally- will qualify for nor can afford. (family of 5 making $38,300 a year or a milionaire).
....ah, that was fun...and a complete waste of my time....why do i bother? good night. -
escap wrote: Just for fun...
Any open sky is good for me . . .
-Traffic concern is legitimate, not a deal breaker, but certainly will cause congestion. I suggest taking public transport which is better for the environment and cheaper.
1. Additional traffic and crowded trains during events (noise included)
As for crowds, I often have to walk around that area late at night and the desolation is not something I will miss.
Also, I wonder where all those people will shop and eat....? (see below)2. A lovely, souless, glass box "downtown" that will be about as warm as the great wall of China (additional 75 mph wind tunnels included at no extra cost).
-Riiiight, I'll really miss those warm, soulful railyards and graffiti covered buildings.
I can't imagine where the juice is going to come from (blackouts and brownouts in Park Slope for the past three days fresh in my mind)
so I hope there's a power plant tucked in there somewhere :twisted: -
pitu lillet wrote: Any open sky is good for me . . .
That is an excellent point.
I can't imagine where the juice is going to come from (blackouts and brownouts in Park Slope for the past three days fresh in my mind)
so I hope there's a power plant tucked in there somewhere :twisted: -
Escap, interesting recap.
Time will tell. I can tell you the estimated revenues and jobs are complete fabrications ( I think the same guys estimated the iraqi oil revenues too
) I kid, of course. Seriously, dont beleive it...
From Village Voice: July 19th
The Battle of Brooklyn
Grassroots groups split on whether arena plan scores for boroughBut there's disagreement about the size of those benefits. Forest City Ratner quotes an estimate of a $1.55 billion net gain to the city and state over 30 years. But the New York City Economic Development Corporation arrives at a much smaller $524 million fiscal gain to the city. (The EDC doesn't report a figure for the state.) To break even, the city and state have to get back more in taxes than the $500 million in public financing Ratner would use.
Over 30 YEARS also....not small change, but not 1.55 billion either!
By far, the best: the housing also will NOT be delivered as promised to the incomes originally promised. Each month the allocation for affordable CHANGES - Hint: not in many people's favor. Forget about the original proposal presented for housing - those numbers are gone. Becuase of the increase in construction costs, the "affordable" element is getting smaller - not larger.
Same article:Even in the affordable-housing plan, critics see the devil in the details. As in all housing programs, the income tiers are based on regional statistics, which cite income levels much higher than Brooklyn's. The effect is that 10 percent of the apartments might be set aside for people making more than $60,000 a year and who would pay rents that aren't much lower than market rate. Given those potential income levels, and the fact that the project includes 2,250 market-rate apartments and 1,500 condos, City Councilman Charles Barron calls Atlantic Yards "instant gentrification."
So hey, you know plenty of millionaries and poor people! Congrats!
Let us know how many of them will be in this project that you know.
MTA will NOT increase service as they have already stated, I think that could be a problem. Not a fan of the look of the train yards or grafitti, but more of the same developer sugar-coated garbage is not the only solution.
I wouldn't mind filling it over and making it in to a public green space. It would be finished in les than 2 years and I wouldn't mind payinf tax dollars for it...Where else did smart people decide NOT to build over every single inch and build a park in the middle of the city...I know it will never happen - just a thought - sigh.
Yes, the restaurants, bars and sops will also increase foot and car traffic.
If you build it, they will come....
There is good and bad to developments. Not everything can be measured on an excel spreadsheet. There are some intangible things about living in an area that make it special. I guess you have to experience the transformation first-hand. -
escap, thank you for one of the more reasoned views on the AY project. I'm not 100% crazy about it, but if people in PH/PS/FG had their way, nothing would ever get built in this town.
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I'm all for development of the Atlantic Yards area. But do people realize that this would be the densest residential in New York? It would also be the densest in the United States, and possibly in Europe.
We're not just talking about building a new midtown. We're talking about the equivalent of 2200 brownstones in a small area. It's quite possible to be pro-development and opposed to this project.
A good article about this is at
therealestate.observer.com/2006/07/prisoner-of-atlantic-avenue.html
It may be true that residents of this neighborhood are anti-development, but that doesn't mean that the Ratner proposal is the best and only answer.
We should have real debates about the level of density that we walk on Flatbush & Atlantic to Vanderbilt & Dean. But we also should be aware that the closest comparison to the Ratner proposal in term of population density in an American or European city is considered a fantastic disaster.
It does not help the pro-develop cause to support any project that comes along. If pro-development people want to be taken seriously, they can't be blind to the problems of development. -
Subject: "nothing would ever get built in this town"
Opposition to the extraordinary, indeed locally unique, outsized proportions of this development--its being completely out of scale with everything around it--would seem to make it not very good evidence for the claim that the neighborhoods oppose everything, that if they had their way "nothing would ever get built in this town."
"Actually, I was thinking for lunch, I might prefer something smaller than an entire watermelon on 30 scoops of ice cream," ...
"If people around here had their way, they would never eat anything!" -
raulism wrote: I'm all for development of the Atlantic Yards area. But do people realize that this would be the densest residential in New York? It would also be the densest in the United States, and possibly in Europe.
I'm sorry, but the article that you're referring to (and the articles that that article refers to) are fairly ridiculous. I'm 100% for a debate on this project and, as I said above, I'm concerned about the scale, uniformity, and design of the public spaces.
We're not just talking about building a new midtown. We're talking about the equivalent of 2200 brownstones in a small area. It's quite possible to be pro-development and opposed to this project.
A good article about this is at
therealestate.observer.com/2006/07/prisoner-of-atlantic-avenue.html
It may be true that residents of this neighborhood are anti-development, but that doesn't mean that the Ratner proposal is the best and only answer.
We should have real debates about the level of density that we walk on Flatbush & Atlantic to Vanderbilt & Dean. But we also should be aware that the closest comparison to the Ratner proposal in term of population density in an American or European city is considered a fantastic disaster.
It does not help the pro-develop cause to support any project that comes along. If pro-development people want to be taken seriously, they can't be blind to the problems of development.
That said, I think it's a huge reach to compare AY to Pruitt-Igoe or the Mitchell-Lama housing developments of the mid-twentieth century. Those housing developments failed not because of density, but because of poor urban design. Those urban renewal projects were inward-facing, pulled buildings away from the street into the middle of parks, and oriented them off the street grid. AY keeps buildings on the streets, has active retail at street level (and density to support it), keeps open space to the midblock (mostly), and keeps the buildings on the grid.
I'd would, however, think the plan would be improved if more streets passed through the site and if the streetwall weren't interrupted as often with open space. As far as density goes, I say go for it. I don't see why we need to shy away from density when the site sits on top of one of the city's major transit hubs. -
Subject: Can someone please explain this?
How is this being measured? Over what area? Is it people per square foot of land? Of built space?
I'm all for development of the Atlantic Yards area. But do people realize that this would be the densest residential in New York? It would also be the densest in the United States, and possibly in Europe.
It sounds like bullshit, frankly. So this is denser than Coop City? The Robert Taylor homes in Chicago? The highrises crowding downtown Vancouver -- 30 and 50 story condos, which frankly look like an awesome place to live? -
The bonds were just approved, btw.
Bond Buyer
7-19-06
By Adam L. Cataldo
The Empire State Development Corp. yesterday adopted a development plan for a multibillion-dollar project in downtown Brooklyn that calls for the issuance of up to $737 million of tax-exempt debt across a pair of transactions.
Arena? Sure. I'd love to have the Nets in Brooklyn and I'd put up with the congestion on the roads and subways that came with game day. I don't think that the city should be subsidizing a sports arena when we have crumbling schools and critical infrastructure needing basic maintenance, but I think the city should remain conducive to the development and success of a professional sports team, if not for actual tax revenue than just for civic pride.
Five or ten thousand units of housing, very little of it genuinely affordable, with no increases in levels of civic service? Hold on a second. FCR's demands on the terms of this deal have been almost entirely one-sided. When the building at 50th and 8th Ave in Manhattan was being developed, the landowners were ultimately compelled to pay for renovations of several surrround existing residential buildings (in that part of Hells Kitchen, basically walk-ups) as well as the 50th St C/E subway stop. Where are the genuine investments in the city's infrastructure to diminish the impact of this proposal on long-established neighborhoods and tenants?
Blighted? I'll go take pictures of Pacific St and WIlliamsburg and invite you to blindly determine which is blighted and which is currently a thriving, tax-revenue-generating residential neighborhood.
Atlantic Yards is too big, too fast, and too expensive, and in its current form it is not good for Brooklyn. -
Subject: Re: Can someone please explain this?
Brooklynartisan wrote:
To answer your question, here is what the The Observer had to say in the link I posted above:
How is this being measured? Over what area? Is it people per square foot of land? Of built space?
I'm all for development of the Atlantic Yards area. But do people realize that this would be the densest residential in New York? It would also be the densest in the United States, and possibly in Europe.
It sounds like bullshit, frankly. So this is denser than Coop City? The Robert Taylor homes in Chicago? The highrises crowding downtown Vancouver -- 30 and 50 story condos, which frankly look like an awesome place to live?
The densest census tract in the country is located in West Harlem, where a 1,190-unit former Mitchell-Lama building stands surrounded by numerous tenements (below). The two-block area has, according to the 2000 Census, a density equivalent to 229,713 inhabitants per square mile.
Sounds positively suburban next to the density envisioned by Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn (below): between 436,363 and 523,636 inhabitants per square mile (based on estimated population of between 15,000 and 18,000 residents over 22 acres). That is the density for the whole footprint, including the open space, the arena, and the office towers.8thandPrez wrote: That said, I think it's a huge reach to compare AY to Pruitt-Igoe or the Mitchell-Lama housing developments of the mid-twentieth century. Those housing developments failed not because of density, but because of poor urban design.
Thanks for bringing up the issue of urban design. I'm not sure how you define it, but the Municipal Art Society just based their analysis of the Ratner proposal on urban design criteria. They asked if it would work, and their answer was no. MAS is a respected organization, and I'm curious what you think of their analysis. You can find it at http://www.mas.org/ . -
Good Posts.
If one word could summarize the concerns and objections of most people, it has to be: SCALE,SCALE,SCALE. (there are others of course)This is a big concern.
To clarify for the 'Ratnerettes", people in the area are not against ALL development.
Yes, previous housing projects and urban renewals listed above have all turned out to be horrible, but remember, they were sold to the public with the SAME sugar coating by architects, politicians, and designers that we are being treated to now regarding this arena and all of the rainbows it will bring to our borough: LEARN FROM IT. We are not the only ones going through similar redevelopments. Again, there is good and bad to all developments, but dont forget the main goal of developments is to make MONEY for the DEVELOPER - everything else is secondary.
Check out this story: It is neither pro nor con on this arena, but food for thought. I think is addresses some of the issue that will be dealt with with this development. To be sure there are others. I am not suggesting anarchy, but people all over the country are dealing with their own "Ratnervilles".
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/columnists/14856087.htm
And talk about changing a neighborhood:
http://www.brooklynpapers.com/html/issues/_vol29/29_25/29_25nets1.php -
Excellent, I'm glad to see I helped stir things up--and even more shockingly, someone's on my side!!! Thanks 8th and Prez.
I can't respond to everything that was said, unfortunately, so I'll just try to address a few key points for the record.
Complaining about gentrification while calling for a park to be built is contradictory, as putting a nice park in the middle of the area (as much as it would be great) would most definitely increase land value and then you really would see the poor pushed out. Building a ton of new housing, however, will give people a place to live. Will it strain public resources? Yep, and so do the other 8 million people that live in the city. Luckily we pay taxes, and after union health and pension benefits are paid out there may be a couple bucks left over for infrastructure.
Anyway, as much as we enjoy watching people flounder about desperately looking for some place to live within the nation's most congested housing mkt, it's hard to justify. More importantly, it's important that the new housing be sold/rented at market rates, since it's a shortage of those that makes this city so expensive. Bldg more rent controlled units will just make housing even more expensive, worsening the squeeze on the middle class (me). Meanwhile, do you know how many people I know who make more than $300K and live in rent control units?
So the point is, I thank god that there's a chance Ratner might weasel his way out of these "affordable housing" agrmts. Indeed, if he was proposing the construction of the world's densest housing project, I would be right there with you protesting in the streets.
And on the density subject, again, this is to me one of the key selling points--tremendous economic boon to the area, will increase safety, increase vitality, and since this is downtown bklyn and not the suburbs or the quasi-suburban outer boroughs, it strikes me as the perfect place. Now, I just hope it happens and frankly I'm not holding my breath b/c you can never underestimate this city's ability to stifle development. -
dont forget the main goal of developments is to make MONEY for the DEVELOPER - everything else is secondary.
I'd like to respond to this one. Not to be Ayn Randian or anything, but the only way to make $ (as opposed to taking $) is to sell something to someone who voluntarily buys it, and therefore thinks to him/herself, "Gee, I'd rather have that thing than this cash." ie, you only buy something if you think you'd be better off having it than keeping your options open. So if a developer makes $$, there must also be a bunch of people out there who consider themselves better off as well. In this case, those people will clearly number in the many thousands, including thousands more in the surrounding area (and if you include Bklyn Nets fans, even more).
Here's to profitable investment in downtown Brooklyn--I hope for more and more. -
Subject: Okay, so let's talk about the MAS's analysis
"MAS is a respected organization, and I'm curious what you think of their analysis. You can find it at http://www.mas.org/ ."
I wish I could find a more in-depth discussion on their web site. All I see is an artless press release filled with wannabe sound bytes.
Sure, Brooklyn is a "big and ever-changing place" with a "historic character" and a "promising future." But saying that Brooklyn is "appreciated for its human scale" is a lame generalization. You could say the same thing about most of the Northeast. This borough has more than 2.5 million residents and would be the 4th biggest city in the US on its own. The question is whether we have to keep this same "human scale" over one of the largest and underutilized transit hubs in the metropolitan area.
About its specific proposals:
1. I'm sorry, but the Williamsburgh Savings Bank is an average building. The fact that people have spent decades staring at an average building doesn't mean it should be protected.
2. What does "respect the character of the existing neighborhood" really mean? A neighborhood can remain intact and border an area that is more densely built up. Brooklyn Heights has been called America's first suburb and was first populated with stock exchange financiers, among others. Lo and behold, almost 200 years later, abutting downtown Brooklyn and the BQE, Brooklyn Heights is STILL an intact neighborhood of well-off financiers.
And, yes, I bet those financiers were outraged, OUTRAGED when a five-story "hi-rise" was about to be built in their midst and complained that it would utterly destroy their neighborhood. Well, it didn't.
3. I've walked from Prospect Heights to Fort Greene many times when the bus hasn't come and would suggest that, as it is, the Atlantic Yards is ALREADY a huge dead zone that prevents the neighborhoods from being connected.
4. Yes, I wish there was more public green space included in the design, and an effort should be made to maintain as much of the street grid as possible. But is suing the developer to stop the project the best way to accomplish this goal? I don't know ... -
So if a developer makes $$, there must also be a bunch of people out there who consider themselves better off as well. In this case, those people will clearly number in the many thousands, including thousands more in the surrounding area
escap - your reasoning sounds like the reasoning of a drug dealer...
I am sure you aren't one, but I'm just sayin'... There surely has to be a way to balance the existing with the new.
Capitalism - yes, but not forsaking all other values in the process...?
Again, this is not the first nor last development in this country, I just wish we had more creative and imaginaitive developers and politicians. I think it is okay to be against the scale of the development and still be for development in Brooklyn.
The supply of housing has always been an issue in New York and now other areas but develpments like this do not solve them lke you would think. Mainly because the affordable element typically gets squashed.
And, I actually think the bank building is a nice building - compared to the Ratner Atlantic Center - I'll take the bank building. I think the public must force the developer to address issues of scale. -
SevenOneEighty wrote: escap - your reasoning sounds like the reasoning of a drug dealer...
Your first point in no way refutes my point. And I don't think buying a house is the same thing as buying coke--call me crazy.
The supply of housing has always been an issue in New York and now other areas but develpments like this do not solve them lke you would think. Mainly because the affordable element typically gets squashed.
And, I actually think the bank building is a nice building - compared to the Ratner Atlantic Center - I'll take the bank building. I think the public must force the developer to address issues of scale.
Again with the "affordable" element. I've had to address this myth so many times already but I can repeat myself endlessly if forced. The more market-rate units exist, the cheaper those units will be. Period. What you are euphemestically referring to as "affordable" housing is really a horrendous, failed policy that is unjust, unfair, hurts the middle class, hurts the city coffers, hurts neighborhoods, hurts the quality of housing, and succeeds only in doing what all price ceilings do, by economic law--causes shortages! If you want to investigate the cause of NY's housing shortage and skyhigh prices, you have to look no farther than the city's backwards, obsolete and destructive rent control policy. Furthermore, the same people who fight for "affordable" housing are the ones who protest the construction of housing and instead call for parks, thus preventing the problem's solution.
And lastly, how can you explain your fondness for the gigantic williamsburg savings bank in one breath and decry the construction of all buildings in the next? Can you imagine anything more out of scale than that bank? At least the new bldgs will have company--the bank stands out like a sore thumb (and another common comparison as well...). And yet you say you like it. :? -
SevenOneEighty wrote:
Always? What about all those decades of the 20thc. when population was flat or falling?
The supply of housing has always been an issue in New York...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City -
escap wrote:
True. There's an important distinction: if you buy a house, the government can take it from you via eminent domain, whereas if you buy coke, the government can take it _and_ your house by asset forfeiture.
Your first point in no way refutes my point. And I don't think buying a house is the same thing as buying coke--call me crazy. -
Subject: Re: Can someone please explain this?
raulism wrote: Thanks for bringing up the issue of urban design. I'm not sure how you define it, but the Municipal Art Society just based their analysis of the Ratner proposal on urban design criteria. They asked if it would work, and their answer was no. MAS is a respected organization, and I'm curious what you think of their analysis. You can find it at http://www.mas.org/ .
Well, it wouldn't be the first time I didn't see eye to eye with MAS. I respect them, but I also think some of their AY arguments are laughable. Let's take a look:With its prime transit connections  10 subway lines and a Long Island Rail Road terminal  the Atlantic Yards site is a logical one for new development, including an arena and badly needed affordable housing.
Ok, good so far. But then...First, the project should respect the character of the existing neighborhoods. Sixteen new skyscrapers would overwhelm the surrounding brownstone neighborhoods and block views of Brooklyn’s wristwatch  the Williamsburgh Savings Bank’s famed clock tower. The overall density of the plan should be reduced, historic buildings on the site  like the Ward Bakery  should be reused, and the city should protect adjacent historic neighborhoods from inappropriate development.
Wha? So AY is a logical choice for new development, including affordable housing, but only if it's located within development that's contextual to brownstone Brooklyn? What's wrong with towers? Nothing - the area is already highly varied in height and it would be flat-out wrong to argue that brownstones define the context in this area. What's wrong with blocking views of the Williamsburgh Bank Bldg (now being converted to a condo-wristwatch)? First off, who the hell uses a building to tell time? Secondly, this is New York - if we had to protect views of every significant building we'd be the size of Omaha. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing Miss Brooklyn 'dance with' or 'kiss' or just stand next to the WSB Building.Second, public streets should not be eliminated. The project should retain Pacific Street between Carlton and Vanderbilt avenues and keep Fifth Avenue open. It should add new public streets to connect the communities surrounding the rail yards.
Ok, fair enough on that one.Third, a real public park should be created. Forest City Ratner proposes a seven-acre “publicly accessible†open space, but this space will serve primarily as a private backyard for residential skyscrapers. Genuine public parks  like Brooklyn’s Cobble Hill Park and Fort Greene Park  are bordered by streets.
Ummm... sort of ok. A publicly accessible open space is just that - open to the public. It's not a public park, and I imagine that's bc the Parks Dept doesn't need to take on the burden of maintaining a major new open space when those costs can be foisted onto FCR. So we get a park and they have to pay for it. I think it's a valid point about the streets though - dovetails into my (and MAS') argument for running more streets through the project.Fourth, the project should promote lively streets. The 16 “towers in a park†would suffocate the active street life that Brooklyn is famous for. Instead, the plan should allow for a continuous and diverse stretch of shops, restaurants and other small businesses along Atlantic Avenue and other streets in the project.
No, NO, NO! For chrissakes, we don't need another 5th Avenue here. Why can't we envision a different retail model that isn't defined by Smith St or Atlantic Center? AY will contain street-level retail; it's always been shown in their renderings and plans. And it's tremendously irresponsible for MAS to argue that 16-story buildings will suffocate street life. If that were the case, then Manhattan would be dead in the water. Active street life requires density. Tall buildings provide that density.Finally, the surrounding neighborhoods should not be left frozen by traffic gridlock. The developer, the city and the state have yet to put forward a plan to deal with the staggering traffic consequences of the proposal. Improved public transit, traffic-calming measures, congestion pricing and residential parking permits should all be explored to create a binding plan to make sure that Brooklyn doesn’t grind to a halt.
Again, decent points to make, but none of these things should stop the development. In fact, I propose something even more radical: no parking garages. Why provide a mass of parking if you're sitting on top of a major transit hub? The other strategies such as traffic-calming, congestion pricing, and parking permits can be implemented in the future as needed. Improved public transit.... I won't hold my breath on that one.
To summarize - MAS makes some good -- and logical -- points. But their biggest criticisms fall flat and, at most, only argue for a more careful look at discrete aspects of the plan. -
Dr. J.
Affordable housing has always been an issue in New York City.
Even with the population shifts and flattening affordable housing has ALWAYS been an issue in this city (see Jacob Reis Photographs and also the Tenement Museum in Manhattan)
Guys, I work with developers EVERY day in my profession and all I'm trying to tell you is this:
The numbers (on affordable/ market-rate) will change again as costs increase. Unfortunately it wil be 2009 or 2010 before we can have this disucssion again for me to be proven correct. By then all of this will be forgotten and it will be too late. You'll just have to wait and see. The definition of "affordable" has several levels.
Escap, when was the last time you spoke with a developer and how to finance a project?
Also, liking the Williamsburg Bank Building, a historically significant building and disliking the molding EIFS "architecture" of Ratnerville are mutually exclusive and not contradictions. You cant be serious, right?
Again, I am not against development - I am for holding developers ACCOUNTABLE for context and scale of their projects.
Your rant about policies and housing are interesting, but your analysis that more housing makes pricing go down is definitely spoken out of emotion and not factual data (especially here in NEW YORK).
See FDIC information here and See NOrthest section of US:
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/fyi/2005/021005fyi_table1.pdf
Even when a so-called "decline" in price happens in New York, it is more of a flattening or correction - not an overall decline across the board, and it goes against the trends of the greater united states. Construction costs, taxes and overhead and profit keep those prices going up and up.
The days of the $500 (decent) 1 BR are long gone in the 5 boroughs and no amount of new housing by Ratner and friends will bring it back. Hell, the $1300 1BR is pretty much gone too.
So, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
Do more movie theaters make movie prices go down?
I stand by my original thoughts. -
SevenOneEighty wrote: Dr. J.
You're still thiniking about the short term. ALWAYS is a very long time. I bet you affordability wasn't an issue in the 1350s. It was just a given that when the time came, you'd get together with your friends and family and raise a dwelling next door. See: the current shortage is just a historical anomaly that market forces will correct in time, just like escap tells us.
Affordable housing has always been an issue in New York City.
Even with the population shifts and flattening affordable housing has ALWAYS been an issue in this city (see Jacob Reis Photographs and also the Tenement Museum in Manhattan) -
Dude,
1350?
NYC as we know it was founded in the 1600's.
But yes, even then, available affordable housing was ALWAYS an issue. -
doctorj wrote:
what a relief!!!
You're still thiniking about the short term. ALWAYS is a very long time. I bet you affordability wasn't an issue in the 1350s. It was just a given that when the time came, you'd get together with your friends and family and raise a dwelling next door. See: the current shortage is just a historical anomaly that market forces will correct in time, just like escap tells us. -
SevenOneEighty wrote: Dude,
Typical colonnial gentrifactionist perspective. Blow in here in the 1600s and think you own the place. But before you came, the original New Yorkers had affordable housing.
1350?
NYC as we know it was founded in the 1600's. -
I hear that Ratner's Neuw Amsterdam Center mall was a real shithole.
-
Some architecture from times past is still standing...but it wasn't made of EIFS like Atlantic Center....by Ratner....
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