Change of leadership at 77th Pct?

MHA wrote: Have you ever gone to the 77th Precinct?? The whole energy of the place is just about dismal.

I can't say I've had the pleasure or displeasure of visiting the 77th.

...but I can say I've been to lots of pcts, they are all pretty dismal. ...it's kinda par for the course, like an emergency room, an ACS office, or a District 75 school....

The pcts do look better than the one in Hill Street Blues (we are seriously old, btw.)

bklyn50 wrote: The interventions used were separated by drugs and violence and they were simple and direct. A group of alleged lawbreakers were asked to attend a meeting, and when they arrived they were greeted by community residents and its leaders, their local police, and their local district attorneys, along with several other criminals of similar ilk. The alleged criminals were told by the local residents of their negative affect on the community, and the pain they had caused by their actions.

Finally, they were shown an unsigned warrant, listing all the crimes that they could be indicted for if the warrant was signed. This tactic is called "warehousing warrants" by the police. The were give two options: go into a program where they could see how they could earn an honest living with a living wage, OR the warrant could be signed and they could begin the process which would end in a conviction and a long jail term. Some of criminals who were summoned in a few of these communities were already serving time for other crimes. At a separate breakout seminar there were testimonies given by three persons who had been so summoned and had come through their local program. The three, two men and one woman, were all grateful for the second chance they had been provided to live an honest life.

While not an atty, I do read (or at least skim) the publications regularly put out by organizations like Vera http://www.vera.org/
and the Brennan Center
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/community_oriented_defender_network

Ah, the promise and hope presented by Community Policing (a term I would argue has been over used to the degree it now lacks meaning). Together with pure communism and pure capitalism, community policing may be right up there in term of things "that we know would work, if only we allocated the right amount of resources. If only we didn't have these pesky humans with their failure to comply and work for the common good".

More concretely, this afternoon I question whether the "Warehousing of Warrants" approach would stand a chance of working in NYC.

1. The city is large enough that criminals experience some degree of anonimity. Why would I, a common criminal, go to the community meeting? ...I'll move my trade to another precinct where they don't know me. Or, just stay here because the police are rarely here long enough to know who anyone really is.

2. With plea bargains and the like, the cops have been pretty demoralized. Why would they save up these warrants? They are rewarded on the basis of arrests; not convictions. ...and certainly not the length of the guys sentance. This leads cops to arrest the same fool over and over an little charges, none of which result in any real time ...and certainly don't change the fools behavior. Well, they prevent the drug dealer from carrying bulk weight and might reduce the number holding guns, but its mostly a revolving door for those smart enough to just get charged with misdemeanors.

3. The public, like the police, isn't into long term solutions either. As you note above, the individual victims want the guy who victimized them caught ...nobody has the time or interest in systemic reform. (Teach the criminal to read? Teach him to show up on time to a job? ....not the victim's list of priorities)

I can imagine the public outcry when the police respond something like "we were sitting on an unsigned warrant, and were going to arrest him eventually" in response to the public complaining about a serious crime by a specific criminal.

Public: What? You could have him in jail for the last 2 weeks, but you were waiting to have him in jail for 1 yr, and while you were waiting to do your job he raped/killed/whatever!

Whynot the Blogger: "The court system is already so overwhelmed/under resourced that it takes forever to have a trial and/or sentancing. Warehousing warrants (in the eyes of the public) would further breakdown the already fragile, barely correlary relationship between crime and punishment. ...and I'm think I'm being generous!"

Detective: "Um, nope. Not gonna happen. When I see criminal committ crime, I'm just gonna arrest him. I'm not gonna open that racial can of worms. Maybe he'll be reformed in prison. (then laughs and snickers.)"

Cop: "so, wait, you want me to document these crimes I learn about but not arrest him until he has done enough that he gets real time? How is my Sgt gonna know I did anything on my shift?"

Criminal: "I shouldn't do x crime because I might be one of the 12 people in NYC that the police bother to watch in this new attempt to warehouse warrants? Hah, I'm gonna commit the crime. I need some $ now."

Excuse for a Social Service System: "You are going to send me criminals who haven't worked, and I'm supposed to teach them to read and develop job skills? I am supposed to teach students who are here instead of being in jail, yet I am an under trained, 5'4", female Social Worker who is 27 and earning 39k a year? Hell no. Develop a system to support me first. Until then, I'll go into Dog Walking ...it pays better"

4. Who gets to decide which criminals are subject to this technique? Clearly you'd better take the time to make sure that every criminal who gets this "priviledge" is awarded (subject?) this on the basis of some allocation that reflects race, religion, income, etc. Make sure you don't roll it out any specific neighborhood first ...you have to roll it out citywide, all at once so no one is treated differently. Ever.

Our criminal justice system could be compared to our investment system:
Everyone involved (police, courts, victims) is only interested in the short term gains, as measured by statistics that have very little relationship to the "real problem" at hand.

In the case of criminal justice, we have an class of people/criminals with few skills, and they are completely alienated and detached from the larger, functional society.

In the case of investments, the players are obviously investors, companies and the like (not police, courts, victims) ...the analogy for the "real problem" being something along the lines of "quality" or "competition from China".

MHA wrote: I think the solution to the crime problem is vigilantism. I don't know if I spelled that word correctly. I think due process is overrated, and wasted on many around here.

I didn't expect you to side with the Klan and the civilian border patrols.

...you continue to surprise us. Here I thought equal protections and civil rights would be the way you'd come down on this issue.

bklyn50,

If and when the Campiagn for Fiscal Equity's decision is ever implemented, it will be a great day.

...but there is no way in hell that upstate residents are going to sit by while their tax dollars are sent to "those people" in the city.

Yea, it was a court decision. ...but see if anyone from any upstate district gets re-elected after implementing it.

Who votes in NYS elections? Upstate people, not downstate ones.

The downstate reps are bright enough to know that they can get the decision implemented, but -if they do- they'll quickly be the minority party until the end of time. ...The decision is so large $ that it effectively has no end.

Note to readers, this post is off the thread's topic.

Captain, captain, captain....

I find that Community Board Mtgs are the worst.

--Infighting by vested interests who are tied to events and stories that happened years ago.

--The same 15 people fighting it out every month.

--the person who interupts every mtg to talk about their issue over and over, but can't excluded or even controlled.

--A collective scorn is cast upon anyone who hasn't been there since the Koch administration.

Advantages of online Community Board Meetings over real ones:
1. You can quickly scroll past people who annoy you.
2. No florescent lighting.
3. Everyone there can always at least read.
4. Everyone gets the illusion of being heard (i.e. having people read their posts).

On the other hand, the members of the 50+ community boards are appointed by the BP and City Council Members, often simply to get them out of their hair.

"Go here, listen to people complain. If you do well, you'll get a paying gig next"

....But I suppose my view may be jaded from years of past experiences.

Let's review what the Councils are actually supposed to do. I'd argue that their most important function is the creation of a "community district needs" statement, and reviewing land use proposals.

As a real estate broker, I assume you (Capt. Planet) are familiar with the "Three Strike Rule" but for anyone else that might be reading (?!), here's a summary:

Basically Community Board members, the City Council member and the Borough President are all required to vote one way in order to stop a land use proposal.

Needless to say, achieving "three strikes" is very difficult, but I can see why a real estate broker might not mind being part of something that can't present a genuine obstacle to development, no matter how ill conceived.

I picked this issue because just about everything else done by the boards (alcohol permits, zoning, block parties, etc) are simply "advisory" in nature.

Ah, the illusion of democracy and neighborhood control. ...an illusion almost as good of a "drug for the masses" as religion, but I promise to stay on topic.

must. stay. on. topic.

Back to the illusion. The illusion falls apart when one realizes that Community Board members are appointed, not elected. End Result: If a community board is to have any power, it must maintain the favor of the person who appointed them.

Citizen groups organized around a neighborhood block or a pressing issue don't face such constraints.

So, to answer your inquiry: As someone who has met many of the regular posters, I can assure you that many are involved on many levels, but I predict you are unlikely to see many of us at a Community Board Mtg.

Clarification: We might come once if there is a pressing issue, and we've never been to one before.

...but if it works for you, have a good time.

Unsolicted Advice:

1. Earn extra points by bringing the coffee.

2. Avoid alienating people by keeping your views about wanting your block to defect from CH to PH to yourself.

3. Thanks for the invite, but I'll work for under funded non-profits instead. I find I make little changes everyday, and find I'm in a better mood when I have no illusion of democracy. [the fact that I often have time to pontificate here is an extra bonus]

4. Glad you read the stuff by Vera and Brennan. My career allows me to use it often. ...hope you can too. Demos puts out some good stuff too, but it has a broader focus: http://www.demos.org/

...and some readers might be here to read about crime and policing, not community boards.

Actually, most people who read my posts see me as an optimist who feels we are making progress. Sometimes we move forward, sometimes backward, but I perceive an overall positive trend. I constantly enourage people to take the long view, and realize that the perspective needs to be over several decades ...not months or years. My world view fits nicely into my career choice, the publications I read to stay informed, and my hobbies.

But this thread isn't supposed to be about me.

It is supposed to be about out we could best use the limited resources of the 77th pct to effect neighborhood change.

yes, prisons are a boon to the upstate economy.

As you point out, they bring census numbers, which brings in tax money and also results in seats in the NYS legislature.

...the prisons also support the fragile economies of many upstate towns.

Counting prisoners as being residents of NYC would be an excellent start to toward getting the support necessary to implement CFE, as well as implementing real criminal jusice/prison reform (the recent reforms to the Rockefeller drug laws come to mind, but much more is needed).

I'd love it if NYC residents felt engaged enough to voted in state elections, and hope that Albany's performance over the past year gets people upset enough to learn about thier interest then take active steps to defend them. ...It would be a shame to quickly lose the involvement that Obama's election garnered.

...we are going to have to depend on organizations like the Working Family Party to get the word out, however. As you point out, both the Democrats and Republicans seem quite comfortable in their roles.

...and, it probably doesn't even need mention that what's left of ACORN after 2009 is a complete disfunctional mess.

Somehow, we as a nation need to convince people that getting an education will result in a valid social contract ...one that society will not renege on, and one that presents real benefits: jobs, respect, living wages, etc.

Until then, we will continue to have to incarcerate people. ...and might transfer the Capt of our local precinct just to make it look like we are addressing the symptom.

P.S. If one follows the attached link, I think the murder numbers on the bottom are cause for optimism. I find the writing and dates on the top are merely interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_New_York_City_crimes_and_disasters

It's a matter of long term perspective. Maybe I am wearing rose colored glasses, but I think we are making progress, don't you?

bklyn50 wrote: Did you notice the last item in my post?:

DI John Cosgrove has been re-assigned.

I did ...but I didn't know him, so I still don't know whether it will make a difference in anything.

I hope the new person will be more successful in getting crime under control, but that's difficult to predict given my lack of knowledge of what's already been tried.

In otherwords, a big "Under New Management" banner isn't always a good sign to put on your business, or precinct.

See you at Crow Hill Bistro?