unsafe wiring--can we get out of our lease?
I live in a brownstone apt. We are planning to move, we're required to give 3 mos notice, which we did. We'd like to get out earlier.
Our apt has bad wiring. The fuses constantly blow, and 3 times I've had smokes/sparks come out of switchplates and outlets. The last time I was just standing in our kitchen and the socket on the floor suddenly made a loud popping sound and smokes/sparks came out--nothing was plugged into it (we'd never used that outlet). This apt has apparently been neglected for years--we didn't know much about apts and just thought it was charming--lots of old details. When we moved in we found that 3 of the 4 bathrooms are unusable because the showers are either scalding hot or freezing cold--it's old plumbing throughout. Basically, we don't think this apt is habitable, it needs to have the wiring and plumbing redone.
I would think that the wiring in particular would be some kind of potential fire hazard that might enable us to get out of our lease...apparently the wiring is from the 50s or so, probably the insulation has disintigrated. (according to the electricians who have visited). does anyone have experience with this? thanks!
Our apt has bad wiring. The fuses constantly blow, and 3 times I've had smokes/sparks come out of switchplates and outlets. The last time I was just standing in our kitchen and the socket on the floor suddenly made a loud popping sound and smokes/sparks came out--nothing was plugged into it (we'd never used that outlet). This apt has apparently been neglected for years--we didn't know much about apts and just thought it was charming--lots of old details. When we moved in we found that 3 of the 4 bathrooms are unusable because the showers are either scalding hot or freezing cold--it's old plumbing throughout. Basically, we don't think this apt is habitable, it needs to have the wiring and plumbing redone.
I would think that the wiring in particular would be some kind of potential fire hazard that might enable us to get out of our lease...apparently the wiring is from the 50s or so, probably the insulation has disintigrated. (according to the electricians who have visited). does anyone have experience with this? thanks!
Comments
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I'll guess that the time it would take to go to court to get out of the lease would be more than three months. Did you ask the landlord directly about moving out sooner?
You might want to scan the archives or post your question on http://tenant.net/phpBB2/ -
yep, you're right, we don't want to go to court...I didn't ask the landord yet about moving out early, I am sending him a letter with my rent this month. But I'm just wondering if I have anything to back me up, aren't there safety standards of living for apts? Is it fair that we moved in here in good faith and the wiring is unsafe? we paid a huge broker fee thinking we'd stay here for a few years, now we have to move and part of the reason is that I don't feel secure here because of the wiring. It's not something we could have known from seeing the place.
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If you don't have the goodwill of your landlord, the enforcement of any statute that would help you will definitely take more than 3 months. If you had longer and had documentation of your previous communication with your landlord asking for the wiring and plumbing to be fixed, than you might be able to hold your rent in escrow until it got fixed, but that only works if you're planning to stay. I think your best bet is to appeal to his/her sense of human decency and just try to beg out of the lease sooner.
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You might also want to call 311 and see if there are any city laws or agencies that can help.
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Subject: Re: unsafe wiring--can we get out of our lease?
findcate wrote:
Have you asked the landlord to fix the problem? Those symptoms might come from wire-to-outlet-terminal connections that have loosened over the years. Even if you have nothing plugged into a sparking outlet, it's just one member of a whole circuit whose other outlets may be serving appliances (and therefore it has current passing through its terminals). The floor outlet: your footsteps may have caused vibration which jiggled the connections enough to make them spark. There could also be corrosion on the connection points, which could cause enough heat to produce smoke. This may just be a matter of replacing outlets or retightening connections. The house wiring itself may not be at fault, but it's still an unsafe condition; your landlord should be motivated to correct it asap.
Our apt has bad wiring. The fuses constantly blow, and 3 times I've had smokes/sparks come out of switchplates and outlets. The last time I was just standing in our kitchen and the socket on the floor suddenly made a loud popping sound and smokes/sparks came out--nothing was plugged into it (we'd never used that outlet). -
apollonia666 wrote: You might also want to call 311 and see if there are any city laws or agencies that can help.
Except if it's really unsafe, Dept of Buildings could kick you out until the hazard is fixed. You should just know what you're in for when you go that route, and whether it's in your interest. Are you in that building that gets discussed on this board everyonce in awhile (12th St?) for the hideous landlady?
Anyway with DOB violations, the landlord gets a notice or a fine and it all goes to the courts.
Most leases say the landlord has to provide a liveable situation -- and that means fix the problem, not let you out of your contract. This stuff really happens better through negotiation than law enforcement. -
findcate wrote: we paid a huge broker fee thinking we'd stay here for a few years, now we have to move
I would definitely mention this to the broker you used. Maybe others have more experience, but isn't it the broker's responsibility to talk to the landlord and notify you of known problems? Perhaps the broker didn't ask or didn't know, but maybe you could get a discount or no-fees on your next place if you use the same broker? -
I mentioned it to the broker...he's pretty sketchy. I don't trust him, and I feel like he just wants to show us overpriced apts that aren't what we are looking for.
Yep, I should get that letter to our landlord and follow up with him. According to the broker he bought the place just before we moved in, although I would think when he bought the place he'd have checked out the wiring and I can't believe it's OK to rent a place out that has such bad wiring that sparks come out of the switchplates! ugh...
Anyway, Lew, we asked him to fix it and he send over an electrician who didn't do much. He fixed each switchplate, but then another would spark...how do we know until something happens? i imagine the place needs to be rewired and we pay too much rent to live in a construction zone... -
Next time you move to another apartment bring a friend who has some knowledge of constructiona and plumbing with you. Or you could do a spot inspection yourself. Ask to see the circuit breaker board. A board alone is pretty good. They should have a mix of 15 and 20 amp breakers. See if the plumbing is rotting or made out of pvc instead of cat iron/copper/steel. Most of all have the broker write in the contract that he will perosnally check to see if everything is up to code.
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If you arent concerned about your deposit you can move out whenever you want. Before you do file a complaint with the dept of housing and/or walk over to the civil court and ask about initiating a HP proceeding and/or filing an order to show cause to get them to remedy the situation.
Also, before you move out, send a letter to your landlord complaining of the situation. Don't forget to mention any past conversations or letters with regard to the same.
Take some pictures too.
If its that bad, just move out. You might have to give up your deposit, but it might be worth it. -
Thanks mykidssmarterthanyourmom. What's an HP proceeding? It might be worth just moving out. I have too look at my lease, we'd might be liable for more than our deposit--is this something we should worry about? But I am kind of tired of dealing with the general falling-apartness of this place and feeling stressed about fires.
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findcate wrote: Thanks mykidssmarterthanyourmom. What's an HP proceeding? It might be worth just moving out. I have too look at my lease, we'd might be liable for more than our deposit--is this something we should worry about? But I am kind of tired of dealing with the general falling-apartness of this place and feeling stressed about fires.
I wouldnt worry so much about being "liable for more than your deposit." In all likelihood they won't try and sue you, and, if they do, if you've started the HP proceeding or filed and order to show cause the will not collect.
New York has something called the Warranty of Habitabilty which more or less means that your apt can't be unsafe. It's it's unsafe you are entitled to move out.
Take a walk over to the Kings County Civil Court (when you have a decent amount of time to spare) and go up the the housing part. It's easy to get to; right off the 4, R, or 2 at Borough Hall.
If your apt is unsafe; move out. -
that last post was me
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i agree with some of the other posters. best just ask the landlord first. dont get the gov invovled yet. cause they might kick you out to fix stuff. plus going to court might take longer than 3 months and this might piss off the landlord.
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They want to leave.
They should leave once they find a new apt. After that eviction is moot.
Don't worry about pissing off the landlord. Landlords are relatively powerless in the five boroughs especially Brooklyn.
You can stay and hope it gets fixed quickly if at all or you can leave.
If I had a dangerous condition like that, I would have stopped paying my rent long ago and waited for the landlord to fix it.
But, like I said, it's your call.
Landlord-Tenant court is a joke. -
Also, if the building is that bad, I doubt it has a certificate of occupancy. The owner cannot legally rent out space without it. And if you are indeed an illegal renter, you cannot be evicted and cannot be forced to pay rent. If this is the case, I would stop paying rent until you move out, then if you don't get your security deposit back, you're not out any money.
There's a good article about C of O in the voice:
http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0629,tucker,73881,15.html -
mykidissmarterthanyourmom wrote:
It's actually called Housing Court. Can you elaborate on your "joke" comment?
Landlord-Tenant court is a joke. -
prusik wrote: [quote=mykidissmarterthanyourmom]
It's actually called Housing Court. Can you elaborate on your "joke" comment?
Landlord-Tenant court is a joke.
Actually it's referred to as both. -
mykidissmarterthanyourmom wrote:
Actually it's the Housing Part of New York City Civil Court.
Actually it's referred to as both.
http://nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/index.shtml
And you still didn't explain the joke comment. -
prusik wrote: [quote=mykidissmarterthanyourmom]
Actually it's the Housing Part of New York City Civil Court.
Actually it's referred to as both.
http://nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/index.shtml
And you still didn't explain the joke comment.
If you went to the civil court and asked for the Landlord/Tenant party the clerk would know what you meant, so would any attorney, court officer, judge, court reporter. etc. What's your point? You managed to cite something you know nothing about. Good job.
As to it being a joke:
It takes forever to evict someone. Most landlords don't recover past rent due. Plenty of landlords wind up paying their tenants to leave so as to avoid the hassle.
Also, most judges don't take kindly to landlords letting their tenants live in a hazaradous situation. -
me again, sorry.
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caaahyoko wrote: Also, if the building is that bad, I doubt it has a certificate of occupancy. The owner cannot legally rent out space without it. And if you are indeed an illegal renter, you cannot be evicted and cannot be forced to pay rent. If this is the case, I would stop paying rent until you move out, then if you don't get your security deposit back, you're not out any money.
Thats is not necessarily true. I do own a two family home and rent out the top floor. I do not have a C of O because my home was built before 1920.
There's a good article about C of O in the voice:
http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0629,tucker,73881,15.html
What that article is referring to is loft buildings which are zoned for commercial use and not residential. Interesting story though thanks for pointing it out.
There is also a big difference in a multiple dwelling (2 or more rented apartments) or a 2 family home (rental unit plus owner occupied). There is not much recourse you can get from the buildings dept. on a 2 family home since they are not subject to BD's inspections.
I suggest you talk to your landlord and tell him/her that you are very concerned about the unsafe conditions in the home, if he is not willing to make the repairs you would like to move out as soon as you find something. Even though it is an inconvenience you should allow him/her to show the apartment to prospective renters (of course at convenient times for you) because if he gets a renter to move in on your move out date (or next rent-due date) than there is not court that would enforce the rest of your lease because the landlord did not suffer any damage because of your breach.
If your landlord gives you a hard time (which I doubt because it costs more to hire a lawyer than to miss one months' rent) make sure you pay for a licensed electrician to come to your apartment and give you a report which states that the apartment poses a "dangerous condition". This is the proof you will need to fight in Housing Court if it comes to that.
Good luck. -
Anonymous wrote: As to it being a joke:
Still not clear to me why that's a joke?
Also, most judges don't take kindly to landlords letting their tenants live in a hazaradous situation.
And if you don't think the judges are doing such a good job - why not give it a try yourself? http://www.nycourts.gov/careers/1jd/20603.pdf
I wouldn't be too quick with that "know nothing about" comment - you might be surprised. Presumably that was a typo but I'm not sure how much of a party it is in the Housing Part.
If you were to ask any tenant advocacy group which side they think the system favors you'd find they would say it was the landlords. I guess that since both sides think it's weighted towards the other that suggests they're just about hitting the right balance. -
stacey wrote: Thats is not necessarily true. I do own a two family home and rent out the top floor. I do not have a C of O because my home was built before 1920.
Ah, I see. I should have figured that.
What that article is referring to is loft buildings which are zoned for commercial use and not residential. Interesting story though thanks for pointing it out.
There is also a big difference in a multiple dwelling (2 or more rented apartments) or a 2 family home (rental unit plus owner occupied). There is not much recourse you can get from the buildings dept. on a 2 family home since they are not subject to BD's inspections. -
Also, I've called housing court before and spoken to someone that said that if you find specific language in the lease that you feel the landlord has broken, you leave early, and they withhold your security deposit, you actually get to take them to small claims court, not housing court.
Plus, I looked back in my contract law book, and was reminded that the basic principal of the lease as a contract is that you both receive "consideration" (something that you want/is of value). The owner receives money and in exchange you receive quiet enjoyment of the property. Worrying about being set on fire or electrocuted don't quite qualify as quiet enjoyment. Unless you're into that kind of thing
As far as common law goes, I think they have broken the contract. -
Who's the landlord? Where's the building?
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