SPLIT TOPIC: Fois Gras

findcate wrote: No, they're not doing that to me--they're doing that to helpless geese. That's why i'm obligated to speak up, because gluttons like you don't have any compassion! It doesn't sound gross, it IS gross. And you're gross. It has nothing to do with fetuses, btw, so don't even go there. We're talking about a live animal that suffers pain as much as we do. How would you like to be force fed until your liver exploded? So that some gluttonous pig could have his 'delicacy'? You're no different from the savages that eat live monkey brains.

findcate wrote: Grossness is a moral arguement? as if you're the authority on moral arguements! Is that why you brought up abortion? A totally unrelated thing designed to appeal emotionally, not rationally--great strategy. You should be working for fox news.

I don't eat meat, haven't in 15 years. And fetuses to me are globs of tissue until they are able to live on their own, so I think you're reaching pretty far with the whole abortion thing--unless you're just trying to inflame, in which case maybe some people will fall for it. I don't believe in right to life, or religion. I think all we have is here & now, all we can do is show respect and compassion for life in all it's forms. And when you see an animal with an open wound on it's neck festering with maggots, that can't move because it's in pain from a swollen liver--and when you excuse that because of gluttony, that is NOT compassion. That's disgusting.

And btw, I'm not anthropomorphosizing geese--but their brains are similar enough to ours and I've read enough to know that mammals have the same nerve structures and share basic cognitive functions such as love of live, self preservation, pain, and protection of their young. They even mate for life, so they show more loyalty than most human males.

And also, the vast majority of people do share my outrage--77% of ny-ers support a ban on fois gras. But our state legislator is in bed with hudson valley fois gras.

findcate wrote: Actually, you are the one who is skewing the arguement. And I think you should apologize for calling me dense. I got your point, but you brought up abortion, not me. It is totally irrelevant to what we were talking about, you brought it up to make the arguement emotional, rather than rational. Personally, I'm pretty rational about abortion.

YOUR WORDS:

"Despite what you say, the issue bears many similarities to the abortion issue. Yours is an incremental approach. You'll never convince people to ban meat, so you work at the margins like the anti-choice crowd is trying to do with "partial birth abortion"."

How exactly does force feeding geese really relate to partial birth abortions? Why did you bring it up? Really, I'd love to know. Other than making things inflammatory...I never try to convince people to not eat meat (that is your assumption, and it's wrong). I just do what I can to try to keep agribusiness humane, by writing letters to govt officials and stuff like that, which is as productive as banging my head against a wall but I feel like I have to do something.... and that unfortunately involves learning about agribusiness. Fois gras goes way beyond humane, it is torturing animals, according to veterinarians--which you think is 'awesome'. You are willing to torture animals so you can stuff your hole with fois gras, and you are trying to make me feel bad for pointing out that it is ethically unsound?

Subject: FIGHT!! FIGHT!!

Carnivore wrote: agree about the excessive packaging, but I'm glad that FD still sells fois gras. It's delicious, and I'm glad there are enough people in New York who recognize that to ensure that the stuff will never be banned here. 13 out of 192 countries is hardly a mandate or a moral consensus. There are more countries than that where women lack the legal right to not be raped by their husbands! I've got to start ordering fois gras from FD to support their refusal to bow to this unfair pressure!

findcate wrote: OK, so you can't justify your arguement because it was totally illogical...

Carnivore wrote: I believe that sentience is a relative thing.

The fact that you can make the process sound gross doesn't really add up to a real argument. It's the same kind of tactic that anti-choice people use when they show pictures of aborted fetuses to convince people that abortion is wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion about what kind of diet is ethical, but don't pretend there is some absolute moral truth to what you're doing. If you don't like the idea of fois gras, don't eat it. No one's trying to force it down your throat with a metal tube.

findcate wrote: why don't you just look at the photos of animals being tortured? just take a look...BEFORE you reply...you really can't find something else to eat?

http://www.nofoiegras.org/

Also quoted in the 2000 WSPA report is veterinarian Dr. Eric Dunayer, who explained that the liver steatosis induced by forced feeding would "cause the animals to suffer from severe, debilitating metabolic diseases" and that "since the liver is the site of detoxification of. . . many substances, these chemicals will accumulate in the blood and cause an animal to feel sick, upset normal cell function, and can lead to coma and death."

The 2000 WSPA report also cites the comments of two other veterinarians commenting on necropsies performed on foie gras ducks:

a. "Animals in this condititon would experience constant pain. . . I consider the production of foie gras to be inhumane as it deliberately harms the duck."
b. "Having seen firsthand the terrible suffering of ducks. . . confirmed by autopsy reports. . . I am forced to conclude that foie gras is produced at a terrible cost to the birds themselves. Foie gras, touted as a gourmet delicacy to entice the palate, is really only the diseased tissue of a tortured, sick animal."

Christine Nichol, a Professor of Animal Welfare at the School of Veterinary Science at the University of Bristol, states:

My view on the production of foie gras is clear and supported by biological evidence. This practice causes unacceptable suffering to these animals. . . It causes pain during and as a consequence of the force feeding, feelings of malaise as the body struggles to cope with extreme nutrient imbalance and distress caused by loss of control over the birds’ most basic homeostatic regulation mechanism as their hunger control system is over-ridden.

In February 2004, Dr. Ian Duncan, a poultry welfare expert and professor in Applied Ethology at the University of Guelph in Canada, issued a "Statement against the force-feeding of ducks and geese." In it, he explains that

“[f]orce feeding quickly results in birds that are obese and in a pathological state, called hepatic lipidosis or fatty liver disease. There is no doubt that in this pathological state, the birds will feel very ill. In my view it is completely unethical to deliberately promote a diseased state in an animal. The birds' obesity will lead to a myriad of other problems from skeletal disorders to difficulties in coping with heat stress and all of which are accompanied by feelings of malaise.”


Statement by Jay Holcomb, Director and Karen Benzel, Public Affairs Director, International Bird Rescue Research Center (IBRRC)

Statement by Nedim C. Buyukmihci a veterinarian with 30 years' experience

Does foie gras amount to cruel and unusual punishment? — with an absolute yes.

The birds do suffer during the feeding process. A stomach tube is rapidly forced through the esophagus into the stomach, sometimes leading to injury, and the huge amount of food being forced into the stomach causes harm in and of itself. Not only does the liver become enlarged, it also malfunctions, so the birds are chronically ill. The ducks are kept in crowded conditions, and their bills, which are rich in nerve endings, are removed with scissors, which causes acute and chronic pain and prevents normal feeding and preening.

When you consider what these birds must endure — and the many other food choices available--it seems that promoting foie gras reflects human indulgence at its worst.

quijibo wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]damn you bunch of meat eating animal murdering hitlers. puting all the animals in those plants aka concentration camps.

kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Livetotravel]Thank God for foie gras, thank God for Upstate New York foie gras production that helps feed the world's foodies this delicious product. Thank God for French cooking techniques. Thank God for Anthony Bourdain and Daniel Bouley.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Try looking at the American chicken processing industry or the American meat packing industry.