Crack wars rage in Crown Heights

capt. planet · July 2010

Folks:

Check out this lovely headline about Crown Heights in today's Daily News.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2010/07/29/2010-07-29_cops_bust_lively_heroincrack_business_in_housing_project.html

Yes, Crown Heights hits the headlines again with criminal intent.

Did this event transpire on Bedford Avenue? Franklin Ave maybe? How about Nostrand Avenue?

Nope, in the Albany Projects.

Anybody on this bulletin board ever been there?

Does what happens there have much effect on the scene on Franklin Avenue or Bedford Avenue?

Probably not, but when people read "Crown Heights" in the headline, and then are told that Franklin Avenue is in Crown Heights, they are naturably disturbed.

But they wouldn't be if we called the area around Franklin Avenue "Crow Hill" or some other equally justifiable name.

Dittio, calling the landmarked blocks around Brower Park "Brower Park".

That's what the area was once called incidentally, just perhaps not in your lifetime.

stacey · July 2010

Subject: Re: Crack wars rage in Crown Heights

Capt. Planet wrote:
Nope, in the Albany Projects.

Anybody on this bulletin board ever been there? .

Yes my son has school friends who live there and the majority of the people there are good hard working people who live in fear of this small group of assholes.

Capt. Planet wrote: Does what happens there have much effect on the scene on Franklin Avenue or Bedford Avenue?

Of course it does.

Seems like brokers are trying to use the old "bait and switch".

mdgately · July 2010

Capt. Planet has already identified himself as a real estate broker, and here sounds to me like he's frustrated that unfortunate Crown Heights news hurts commissions.

pulpandbean · July 2010

i said it before. franklin ave is franklin heights!
(hello everyone from jerusalem, see ya soon)

whynot_31 · July 2010

That's Eastern Crown Heights.

mougar · July 2010

Subject: Re: Crack wars rage in Crown Heights

Capt. Planet wrote: Anybody on this bulletin board ever been there?

Yep, I used to live about a block east of there.

whynot_31 · July 2010

Subject: Re: Crack wars rage in Crown Heights

Mougar wrote: [quote=Capt. Planet]Anybody on this bulletin board ever been there?

Yep, I used to live about a block east of there.

I visited that neighborhood a lot between 1996 - 2000. A kid at the group home I worked at had an aunt that lived there. He was discharged from foster care to them in 2000. She was the best aunt ever.

Does that count?

capt. planet · July 2010

mdgately wrote: Capt. Planet has already identified himself as a real estate broker, and here sounds to me like he's frustrated that unfortunate Crown Heights news hurts commissions.

Not only my commissions are kept down, but so are home values in the area.

Those new merchants on Franklin Ave won't be pleased by crime news either. They need the disposible income of new residents to buy their products.

And new residents won't come if they think Crown Heights' real name is "Crime Heights".

The only folks pleased by crime news might be drug dealers and possibly renters who hope their rents stay low.

mr. met · July 2010

i hate to break it to you, but there are shootings on franklin ave regularly and the drug trade is active. why should it get a special name when the same shit happens there?

i lived two blocks away from the albany houses for a year and never set foot on albany ave, btw.

mr. met · July 2010

are the new merchants on franklin ave pleased by the blood spilled regularly on...franklin ave?

whynot_31 · July 2010

Capt. Planet wrote:
Not only my commissions are kept down, but so are home values in the area.

Those new merchants on Franklin Ave won't be pleased by crime news either. They need the disposible income of new residents to buy their products.

And new residents won't come if they think Crown Heights' real name is "Crime Heights".

The only folks pleased by crime news might be drug dealers and possibly renters who hope their rents stay low.

Capt-
Life is hard and buyers are always nervous when signing a 30 year mortgage, but lying isn't an option. We'll let you counter such fears by pointing out how good the schools are in the immediate area the apartment/home is located.

As stated previously, I think "Eastern Crown Heights" and "Western Crown Heights" would be completely accurate.

Remember what they taught you in real estate class?
The part about how people like neighborhoods full of hard working, honest, people? Well, the converse is also true. Neighborhoods with lying, dishonest, "professionals" tend to have low property values.

Is your presence part of the latter?

capt. planet · July 2010

mr. met wrote: i hate to break it to you, but there are shootings on franklin ave regularly and the drug trade is active. why should it get a special name when the same shit happens there?

i lived two blocks away from the albany houses for a year and never set foot on albany ave, btw.

If you attend community board meetings or 77 Pct Council meetings, you'll hear from the police that the real "hot" blocks are east of Utica.

Sure crime happens everywhere. I remember a few years a cobbler on 4th Ave and 10th Street was murdered for the change in his cash register by some thugs from Windsor Terrace. Same thing with the proprietor of a dry cleaner in Windsor Terrace. But as a former boss once said, "the exception proves the rule"

whynot_31 · July 2010

Let's Practice:

Capt. Planet wrote:

If you attend community board meetings or 77 Pct Council meetings, you'll hear from the police that the real "hot" blocks are east of Utica, in East Crown Heights.

whynot_31 · July 2010

more practice:

mr. met wrote: are the new merchants on franklin ave pleased by the blood spilled regularly in Western Crown Heights on Franklin Ave?

capt. planet · July 2010

OK, OK. I get it. But East and West are just not very colorful nor do they draw on the rich history of our area. We all know where Crow Hill is thanks to the Crow Hill Association. The area around Brower Park was once call "Bedford Park" when the park also bore that name. It was also called "St. Marks" after the milion dollar mansions on St. Marks Avenue between Nostrand and Kington that were knocked down long ago. The very first name for the area was simply "Bedford" when Grant Square at Bedford and Dean, site of the Union Club and the Imperial Apartment building, was the major locus of activity.

whynot_31 · July 2010

I guess you are going to have to wait for a time in which people value "colorful" over "truthful".

....then those suggestions will work out great

cool the kid · July 2010

Lol... NOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Franklin's not Crown Heights hahahahahahahaha

carnivore · July 2010

Capt. Planet wrote: Sure crime happens everywhere. I remember a few years a cobbler on 4th Ave and 10th Street was murdered for the change in his cash register by some thugs from Windsor Terrace. Same thing with the proprietor of a dry cleaner in Windsor Terrace. But as a former boss once said, "the exception proves the rule"

Exceptions don't prove rules, except in one specific legal sense that does not apply here. Check out Cecil Adams' column for what the expression you're using actually means. The section titled "THE LAST WORD ON EXCEPTIONS" explains the only context in which the expression makes sense.

capt. planet · July 2010

whynot_31 wrote: I guess you are going to have to wait for a time in which people value "colorful" over "truthful".

....then those suggestions will work out great

If you don't see that the architecture in both quality and size is greater and grander in the vicinity of Brower Park than elsewhere east of Washingont Ave, then you need to pull yourself away from your computer screen and go for an actual walk in the area you purport to have such a detailed knowledge of.

You know, for 15 years I toiled as a non-profit developer, renovated vacant and abandoned buildings in the North Crown Heights area. My company renovated 35 1-4 family homes most of them east of Nostrand. We also restoref 12 multi-famly buildings into 81 inexpensive condos and 31 affordable rental units along Bedford Ave and created at least another 70 affordable rental units in other buildings, all in Crown Heights North.

Then along came Guiliani, who decided that he'd rather give vacant city buildings to for-profit developers, and our non-profit got toasted.

So I've gone, at least in the public's eyes, from being Robin Hood to just plain robbin' folks in the 'hood.

And it all makes me realize how silly all of this name calling really is.

Once we get beyond labeling people with stereotypes, honest dialogue begins. Until that happens...................

carnivore · July 2010

Capt. Planet wrote: Then along came Guiliani, who decided that he'd rather give vacant city buildings to for-profit developers, and our non-profit got toasted.

I don't understand how you can complain about this when you've been a vocal advocate on these boards in support of the Atlantic Yards project. Oh that's right, maybe because it is actually in Prospect Heights, not in your neighborhood, however you might try to sell your neighborhood to others.

spnder · July 2010

I'd just like to chime in that the title of this thread has little if nothing to do with the story that was linked to in the post.

Perhaps your intent is to make people so scared of a name that they wouldn't mind taking up another- regardless of the decades of history behind it.

I get it. I understand that neighborhood names are fluid and change over time. But somehow Williamsburg, which is every bit as large and diverse as Crown Heights, managed to become a desirable designation.

Maybe we shouldn't spend so much time talking about names and more time talking about how to make Crown Heights a name we are all proud of.

whynot_31 · July 2010

It does seem ironic that Capt created a thread that seemingly degrades the 'hood he would like to see prosper. It seems to just add to the hysteria.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=crack+war+crown+heights&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CbmFs1yhSTI_nEYWWhgS18_XODAAAAKoEBU_Q11cO

Capt,
I have no intention of applying stereotypes to you. I have yet to say all realtors are not truthful. In fact, many truthfully advertise their listings to be in Crown Heights. See:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=crown+heights+NY+real+estate&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

As you point out, parts of Crown Heights are really nice and a great value. I'd love to buy a home near Brower Park. It is right in the center of Crown Heights.

novanglus · July 2010

Ironically, Crow Hill was renamed Crown Heights as a marketing gimmick. We've come full circle.

whynot_31 · July 2010

novanglus wrote: Ironically, Crow Hill was renamed Crown Heights as a marketing gimmick. We've come full circle.

Correct. Crow Hill used to reference the prison and/or its black residents (known derisively as "Crows").

for more on this topic, read this thread starting at the time noted:

http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
Tue May 04, 2010 7:19 pm EST

mr. met · July 2010

If you don't see that the architecture in both quality and size is greater and grander in the vicinity of Brower Park than elsewhere east of Washingont Ave, then you need to pull yourself away from your computer screen and go for an actual walk in the area you purport to have such a detailed knowledge of.

i lived on brooklyn two blocks from brower park for a year.

i'll let you in on a little secret. yes, the architecture is great in the area, but no one wants to live there because there is nothing to do there. nothing at all. it's all elderly people and families. it's also an annoying location for transporation.

mr. met · July 2010

...and during my time there, there were shootings all around the area, including one right outside my window.

this area, like franklin ave, doesn't deserve a special name. it's already landmarked; that should be enough. giving this area or the area around franklin different names to try to show that violent crime is not a problem there would just be misleading.

whynot_31 · July 2010

The NYT seems to be no longer maintaining its murder map, so the data ends at 2009.

http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map

....but clearly the area of Brower Park has its share of "dots". Even if the risk to Mr and Mrs Gentrifier (who don't use drugs and go to bed by 11) is low, some folks would prefer not to live in an area with all those dots.

capt. planet · July 2010

The question I'd like to raise, given that the architecture is indeed significant around Brower Park, is: does that reality deserve any special recognition, like a n'hood name reflective of this realty?
If the whole nabe from Washingon to Ralph is tagged "Crown Heights" how would an outsider have any clue that some special is going on around Brower Park?
As we all should know, the first reaction of many outsiders when they hear that you're considering moving to Crown Heights is "Is that where the riot was?"
We know that happened 20 years ago, but the rest of the world doesn't seem to get it.
As I said before "Crown Heights" has too much baggage. A new name begets new possibilties. Why keep getting tarred with the same old brush?

whynot_31 · July 2010

Well, many believe that the whole "riot" itself was a brush.
....as riots go, Crown Height's was a pretty small one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

There are folks in the world that idealize the 'hood. (i.e. "Crime only happens to bad people, I am a good person therefore crime would never happen to me").

...and there are those who are seemingly willing to pay obscene amounts of money to live in what they believe to be crimeless uptopias (Park Slope, UWS). They are frequently disappointed.

However, I think there are enough intelligent people that presently live in Crown Heights, as well as intelligent ones that are willing to move to Crown Heights that no name change is needed. (you'll do fine Capt. ....you just gotta find the right buyer).

and, personally, I perceive those who claim to live in neighborhood they do not to be either lying to themselves or me. Insecurity isn't a flattering quality, and one should not be defined as being "merely where they live".

carnivore · July 2010

Capt. Planet wrote: The question I'd like to raise, given that the architecture is indeed significant around Brower Park, is: does that reality deserve any special recognition, like a n'hood name reflective of this realty?
If the whole nabe from Washingon to Ralph is tagged "Crown Heights" how would an outsider have any clue that some special is going on around Brower Park?
As we all should know, the first reaction of many outsiders when they hear that you're considering moving to Crown Heights is "Is that where the riot was?"
We know that happened 20 years ago, but the rest of the world doesn't seem to get it.
As I said before "Crown Heights" has too much baggage. A new name begets new possibilties. Why keep getting tarred with the same old brush?

I believe the Landmarks Preservation Commission calls that part of Crown Heights the "Crown Heights North Historic District."

http://gothamist.com/2007/04/24/lpc_yes_to_crow.php

stacey · July 2010

Capt. Planet wrote: The question I'd like to raise, given that the architecture is indeed significant around Brower Park, is: does that reality deserve any special recognition, like a n'hood name reflective of this realty?

To me this is where the broker comes in. When you hear a person is looking for architectural significance/beauty its up to you as the broker to say "let me show you some places around Brower Park in Crown Heights".

Capt. Planet wrote: As I said before "Crown Heights" has too much baggage. A new name begets new possibilties. Why keep getting tarred with the same old brush?

See I disagree. It has historical significance whether it the history you want or not. Its your job to state: that was then, this is now. Seeing a change for better in a neighborhood is what brings in new renters and buyers.

The only disadvantage I see to buyers with families is the school situations.

Crack wars rage in Crown Heights

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