Avatars -- A Virtue Attached To Assuming Recreational Skin
Comments
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Indeed.
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I wrote some more.....
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I had one of those moments where in conversation with someone about something quite banal actually, they were more taken with HOW I spoke rather than what I was speaking about. It was one of those moments where A Virtue Attached To Assuming Recreational Skin would come in handy, to prevent the gazer from being distracted by what seeming contradiction is engendered by seeing Black bodies commune with non-black bodies in a fashion where individuals don't retreat into race specific roles. This also came to mind watching Lettermen tonight where that white woman from that 'Pretty Woman' movie (Julia Roberts?) is sitting beside a middle-aged brother on the show and can't help but to start hamming it up with Dave by delving into what she must construe as black-speak... Avatars for everyone on that show please. Dave, you should know better. Julia, STFU.
A brother of mine plays Halo on line with people from all over the world and loves to tell me that despite everyone having an avatar, the most popular thing said by one player to another is something along the lines of, 'Nigger I shot you!' Essentially denoting that 'you' got shot. He himself uses the word thusly and on one funny, ironic occasion had a white dude take offense and say, "I have African American friends, and they don't like that word bandied about like that..."
I know,you had to be there...
On the 4 train and some dude tripping on masonic lore comes and sits down, all blinged-out in triangles, and compasses, and symbols placarded on his bag, hanging from his neck, wrapped around his finger, and holding up his pants for god's sake. And this stuff is supposed to be esoteric? "Your attention please, Avatar needed at Franklin Avenue, fourth car from the front."
There is so much virtue in not knowing who you are. Ellison had it wrong. -
MHA wrote:
Hmmm. I think you mean to state "there is so much virtue in others not knowing who you are"
There is so much virtue in not knowing who you are. Ellison had it wrong.
I also find it scary that you need to dispute the knowledge of one of America's foremost authorities on being a dumb blond, Jennifer Ellison.
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Ellison&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=4EdlTNikPISclgfhsaDYDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQsAQwAw
Clearly, not everyone's opinion is worthy of consideration.
[at the get together I promise to tell my Shaka Mandingo story, it is too long to post here] -
Coming late to the conversation, I find it *mind blowing* that not a single participant on this thread (besides its progenitor) has embraced the avatar. Really? Really?!?
As I journey through the world, I would love to don an avatar at will. I am constantly gauging when I can safely make my opinions known about what goes on around me. I often disagree with things that are said in my presence, but I choose my "battles" wisely. And, yes, they are battles, because people do not like their assumptions to be challenged, especially since they so often believe they are surrounded by people who think just like them. When I disagree with someone, however politely, I know that I risk:
- occasional violence (try asking a drunk guy at a bar to stop loudly referring to the server as a "bitch");
- social opprobrium (try not gushing over the new diamond engagement ring of an acquaintance, even if you think the money could have put to some better purpose, especially since her fiance is in massive debt from medical school);
- and especially professional stagnation (try telling your boss, as he gushes details about his son's birthright trip to Israel, that you don't agree that the Palestinians are terrorist monsters holding Israel under siege).
I think in asking people to act "as if" in public on this board, censure is active. We live in a society with social and political norms, and most of us subscribe to them most of the time. That may keep most people comfortable, but for those that don't meet those norms - or aren't interested in meeting them - that experience is very uncomfortable.
One of the interesting things I've seen here is that, despite the avatars, how we identify ourselves seems so important. It is imperative to so many to be able to identify a poster in real world terms. Posters want to know definitely what people do professionally, how "educated" they are (in a credentialed way), and certainly race and sex (if not class, only because I think there's an assumption that "we're" all middle-class professionals).
There was a thread that I participated in about interracial dating where posters pretty consistently stated that race should not be an issue between potential partners, or to the society that surrounds them. To those people: this board should be your nirvana, because at least here race is not "seen" up front. Yet, in so many posts on this board, people are clamoring to know the "identifying" details of individuals. Clearly, race - and all those other demographic details - matter.
I enjoy the idea that at least in this one small space of my life, I can truly only be known through my words. I get so tired of being judged in other ways. -
stacey wrote: I have had run ins with people on trains and in restaurants that have made comments that were offensive. Sometimes I have gotten into shouting matches and fistfights with some of these people but I would do it again in a Brooklyn heartbeat.
Stacey,
You might think that class and race may be the reason I am how I am but it has more to do with how I was raised and the lessons I learned from those people around me I truly respected. I grew up in a predominantly low/low-mid income neighborhood. I was taught that you stand up for what you believe in and stick to it.
I've said things to people in public places too, and I'm well aware that I've gotten away with it *only* because I am female. In fact, I stopped after a few incidences where my male friends or family members were threatened by guys who felt they couldn't fight (or shoot) "a girl". Besides being male, MHA is also a black man, which adds a whole 'nother layer of complicatedness.
Race and class *and* gender mean that we make choices with different constraints. To chide MHA for not making the same choices as you ... well, that's offensive to his humanity.
Respectfully,
Krowonhill -
Whynot, I should have said, if anything, 'There is so much virtue in ME not knowing who you are; the word 'others' works as well, but it dilutes the point.
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Krowonhill, I think that there is little appreciation for wearing recreational skin because most of these 'folks gain so much advantage from the skin they already possess....
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krowonhill wrote: [quote=stacey]I have had run ins with people on trains and in restaurants that have made comments that were offensive. Sometimes I have gotten into shouting matches and fistfights with some of these people but I would do it again in a Brooklyn heartbeat.
Stacey,
You might think that class and race may be the reason I am how I am but it has more to do with how I was raised and the lessons I learned from those people around me I truly respected. I grew up in a predominantly low/low-mid income neighborhood. I was taught that you stand up for what you believe in and stick to it.
I've said things to people in public places too, and I'm well aware that I've gotten away with it *only* because I am female. In fact, I stopped after a few incidences where my male friends or family members were threatened by guys who felt they couldn't fight (or shoot) "a girl". Besides being male, MHA is also a black man, which adds a whole 'nother layer of complicatedness.
Race and class *and* gender mean that we make choices with different constraints. To chide MHA for not making the same choices as you ... well, that's offensive to his humanity.
Respectfully,
Krowonhill
There is no chiding MHA - just letting him know my take on it. I will still stand up for what I believe in and like I tell everyone - "Love me or leave me". Do I respect MHA's feelings and opinons (as well as yours) even if I don't agree with it? Of course.
I grew up with mostly African American and Hispanic families and to tell you the truth - many of those older generations are the ones who instilled this in me. -
MHA wrote: Whynot, I should have said, if anything, 'There is so much virtue in ME not knowing who you are; the word 'others' works as well, but it dilutes the point.
fair enough. I get what you are saying.
What I was saying, however, is that I think its imperative that people to know who they, themselves, are. If they don't, they can never know who anyone else is.
....and they end up being told who they are by the media and the larger culture.
Which, needless to say, is often really damaging. -
stacey wrote:
Stacey,
There is no chiding MHA - just letting him know my take on it. I will still stand up for what I believe in and like I tell everyone - "Love me or leave me". Do I respect MHA's feelings and opinons (as well as yours) even if I don't agree with it? Of course.
Ok, glad to hear it, but your initial message did come off as judgmental and condescending.
K -
krowonhill wrote: [quote=stacey]
Stacey,
There is no chiding MHA - just letting him know my take on it. I will still stand up for what I believe in and like I tell everyone - "Love me or leave me". Do I respect MHA's feelings and opinons (as well as yours) even if I don't agree with it? Of course.
Ok, glad to hear it, but your initial message did come off as judgmental and condescending.
K
Thanks - I didn't want it to come off that way. Unfortunately I am not such an eloquent writer as some of the other posters here
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stacey wrote:
Stacey,
I grew up with mostly African American and Hispanic families and to tell you the truth - many of those older generations are the ones who instilled this in me.
I don't understand the relevance of this statement. Are you saying that MHA's parents didn't raise him right? Are you saying that, if they had, he would have risked violence, social opprobrium, and professional stagnation to constantly challenge injustice in people's speech (as you do)?
Since I'm white, would you say the same thing about my white parents?
K -
Krowonhill-
I read it as Stacey learning something like:
"no matter how you feel, express it. You shouldn't care whether it makes you unpopular."
....and Stacey pointing out that many of the folks that taught her this were Hispanic and African American.
But I have no doubt Stacey will soon correct me if I read it wrong. ...she isn't shy.
MHA-
I assure you, my presence is here is purely recreational. And, if it hasn't become obvious yet I take steps to make sure I represent only myself, not my skin. Yes, this is one of the few venues in life one can get away with it ...and have time to express one's self before being interrupted.
....what others ascribe to me on the basis of my skin is often to my advantage, but some learn such inferences are not always wise.
...you would LOVE the Shaka Mandingo story. I will tell it at the next gathering. It is too long to type here. -
^^^ this
If you read the conversation between myself and MHA you will see how I came to the last thing I wrote.
Never once did I ever infer anything about how he was raised - I only stated how I was. -
stacey wrote: ^^^ this
Stacey,
If you read the conversation between myself and MHA you will see how I came to the last thing I wrote.
Never once did I ever infer anything about how he was raised - I only stated how I was.
Ok, perhaps you meant that you identify with the experience of lower class blacks and hispanics, and you still speak up consistently about "your truth"? So, it is unfair for MHA to challenge your statement that your "speaking up" behavior has nothing to do with your race and class?
(But I'm getting from you that you are white? And that you don't identify - or maybe not anymore? - as lower class?)
K
P.S.: I really am trying to understand this. I mean, how often do we get to talk about an issue like this with such a diverse section of our community? -
whynot_31 wrote: Krowonhill-
whynot,
I read it as Stacey learning something like:
"no matter how you feel, express it. You shouldn't care whether it makes you unpopular."
Just to be clear, the stakes are a lot higher than popularity.
K -
this is all so weird because many members have already met and know who MHA is. Anyways... carry on...
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This medium has advantages and disadvantages.
but, yes, it is often all we have.
Here, a poster's ability to influence people is based far more on their writing skills and intellect than it is on the race, wealth or authority they possess in real life.
As a result of the priviledges they have in real life, some folks come here and act as if they have the continued ability to tell others to "shut up".
...it is great fun to watch them be ignored. Or, to paraphrase MHA: "quite recreational" -
krowonhill wrote: [quote=whynot_31]Krowonhill-
whynot,
I read it as Stacey learning something like:
"no matter how you feel, express it. You shouldn't care whether it makes you unpopular."
Just to be clear, the stakes are a lot higher than popularity.
K
Yes, but I have a hard time imagining Stacey as a little girl was taught "no matter how you feel, express it. You shouldn't care whether it makes you risk violence, social opprobrium, and professional stagnation" and being able to internalize it.
Sometimes you gotta say things to kids in ways they'll understand it. -
whynot_31 wrote:
Very very true..
Here, a poster's ability to influence people is based far more on their writing skills and intellect than it is on the race, wealth or authority they possess in real life." -
Mamacita wrote: this is all so weird because many members have already met and know who MHA is. Anyways... carry on...
I'm confused. I thought that MHA refuses to come to the social outings? Are you sure you're right about his identity? An earlier poster thought she had spotted him at a community meeting, but he denied the person described was him.
In any case, if MHA's avatar is shaky, that doesn't invalidate a discussion about the use of an avatar. -
whynot_31 wrote:
This is an interesting point.
As a result of the priviledges they have in real life, some folks come here and act as if they have the continued ability to tell others to "shut up". -
krowonhill wrote: In any case, if MHA's avatar is shaky, that doesn't invalidate a discussion about the use of an avatar.
Agreed -
Mamacita wrote: [quote=krowonhill]In any case, if MHA's avatar is shaky, that doesn't invalidate a discussion about the use of an avatar.
Agreed
See my discussion on the first page of this thread.
...it can still be great fun, especially if the regulars abide by a code that says "do not disclose anything about a person you learn in real life, or on a prior thread".
Most of the regulars abide by this code. ...and there is a strict rule about not posting pictures of the get togethers.
Basically, I believe it works best when readers only get to know what a poster is actively disclosing to the reader.
[I am tempted to tell the Shaka Mandingo story now, but it is too long, and I have some stuff to do. I think its better in person too, the story isn't well suited to this medium. Maybe we could broadcast it to MHA via a oneway Skype connection] -
abide by a code that says "do not disclose anything about a person you learn in real life, or on a prior thread".
-- Actually that is hardy a code. Look at the Lounge, people disclose everything and anything about another person. There is no official rule. And prior threads are totally game, come on, you even post links of prior threads. The best you can do is be polite, play nice, that IS in the rules.
Edit to add: Obviously don't say peoples real name/address/number etc without asking. Pictures do get posted and often, but it's a members choice to contact that person and say "hey can you remove that" to the OP. For instance MHA can ask for his pic to be removed. -
krowonhill wrote: [quote=stacey]^^^ this
Stacey,
If you read the conversation between myself and MHA you will see how I came to the last thing I wrote.
Never once did I ever infer anything about how he was raised - I only stated how I was.
Ok, perhaps you meant that you identify with the experience of lower class blacks and hispanics, and you still speak up consistently about "your truth"? So, it is unfair for MHA to challenge your statement that your "speaking up" behavior has nothing to do with your race and class?
(But I'm getting from you that you are white? And that you don't identify - or maybe not anymore? - as lower class?)
K
P.S.: I really am trying to understand this. I mean, how often do we get to talk about an issue like this with such a diverse section of our community?
MHA started the thread with the idea that being able to hide behind an avatar allows people to state things they would otherwise not be able to do with someone face to face. He brought up reporters which I agreed that in that specific situation the avatar might come in handy. I also felt sad for him if he thought that because of his "race and/or religion and/or nationality" he felt he could not speak "his" truth as he sees fit. I could not tell anyone who is not white how they should feel because as a white person I would never truly know what it is like to be in the other person's position. I was trying to make a point that I "speak up because of who and what I was influenced by growing up".
Yes I do identify with the low-middle working class and still identify myself with that. I am white and I grew up in a very mixed family with different races as well as religions so I tend to classify my thinking as one of "class" and not race. Growing up I was never left out because of my race, yet there were people who would exclude me from things because "I was poor" or my family didn't have the right "connections".
Many of the people in my family and in my neighborhood are the people who influenced me and taught me the values I have now, which are work hard, be proud of who you are and where you come from and stand up for what you believe in. -
Mamacita wrote:
Admittedly, "code" is too strong of a word. It's not like there is a secret induction ceremony after a rigorous screening process. (I'd enjoy whacking a few posters with fraternity paddles though. I'm kinky like that)abide by a code that says "do not disclose anything about a person you learn in real life, or on a prior thread".
-- Actually that is hardy a code. Look at the Lounge, people disclose everything and anything about another person. There is no official rule. And prior threads are totally game, come on, you even post links of prior threads. The best you can do is be polite, play nice, that IS in the rules.
Edit to add: Obviously don't say peoples real name/address/number etc without asking. Pictures do get posted and often, but it's a members choice to contact that person and say "hey can you remove that" to the OP. For instance MHA can ask for his pic to be removed.
...but a lot of us who do know the other posters do seem to keep our mouths shut when we see someone, especially a newbie, burying themselves.
For example, when I see a newbie take some bait from a regular in the regular's field of expertise, I know it's going to be fun, so I as a fellow poster I don't ruin it.
Example:
Regular with advanced degrees and 20 years experience in xx states, "if only someone here knew something about xx, we could have this conversation"
Newbie replies "I don't know much about xx, but think the following...."
Regular then slams Newbie into wall, using their advanced knowledge.
There's nothing "not nice" about it. It is pure fun.
Being behind a avatar, people are also able to keep their professions a secret. ...which has the advantage of preventing those of us who occasionally act like Beavis and Butthead on line from destroying the credibility of our professions and being brought up on ethics charges.
It allows the myth of the sterile professional to be continued.
This layer of fun is an advantage that can come as a result of knowing each other in person, but can also be obtained by simply being a regular. I've not met many of the regulars who post, but have certainly gained respect for some of them based on their prior posts) -
I succumb to whynot's thinking.
Yes, a point in this thread is very true, hilarious, awesome. I will no longer interfere in the fun of this thread. There are many layers to online personalities, who knows who, who doesn't think they are known or know who... I will now step aside and let the conversation thrive.
In the end we are all a community and let's get along Very Happy
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