Avatars -- A Virtue Attached To Assuming Recreational Skin
Comments
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stacey wrote:
Thanks for elucidating, Stacey. I don't want to dismiss your grit in speaking your mind (or the grit of those of any color who taught you to always speak your mind), but I am left wondering why we've come to such different conclusions about the wisdom of always speaking one's truth. I don't do it, because I fear the consequences. Do you think that makes me a coward? (I won't hold it against you if you do.) I also believe that the consequences are potentially more severe for some amongst us (such as the African Americans neighbors who partially raised you).
I was trying to make a point that I "speak up because of who and what I was influenced by growing up". -
MHA wrote: Krowonhill, I think that there is little appreciation for wearing recreational skin because most of these 'folks gain so much advantage from the skin they already possess....
MHA, and everyone else,
Intellectually, I see the wisdom in this. But, emotionally, it's hard for me to accept. I mean, I'm white. I know that my white skin has made my journey through live easier. Shouldn't I be clinging to my real-life identity with hard knuckles then? I guess I'm willing to forgo it, since I don't think it's productive for my community or my world.
Our identities so often divide us. I think we acknowledge that when we insist on acting "as if" we live in a post-racial world. So many times now on this board, I've seen people state that race - or whatever other "identifier" - is not an issue for them. I don't think that's possible, but, whether or not it is, the avatar suddenly makes that statement so. I would think that people would embrace the avatar for that reason, but they aren't.
Posters are outraged at the suggestion that someone could enjoy taking on an avatar. It's not just that they don't find it appealing, but that admitting to its appeal is considered an affront. Why is the idea of an avatar so threatening? Maybe, the reason is a white-knuckled hold to a privileged status?
This is a surprise to me.
Krow -
The virtue of being black and donning my avatar is that, believe it or not, being publicly Black and proud has more consequences than you can ever imagine. For instance, note that there has been little public Black radical thought between the discussion of American oligarchy, radical Islam, and the fact that the fundamentalist Arab enemy is often African if not African descendant. This does not mean that Black radicals are promulagating for the ascendancy of radical Islam -- THEY ARE NOT -- but they know better than to even risk talking about it for fear of being put in the same category as King was (communist) or Malcom was (racist-subversive). So now we live in an era of a paucity of intelligent Black radical subversive discourse. Having an avatar serves the purpose of filling the vacum of public debate. And probably because I don't wear my 'I wanna save the world' button on my sleeve a la I-nelson, or I don't take my soapbox outside and scream oration at the corner of Eastern Parkway and whatever, that doesn't lessen the need for the messenger, or the message. Wearing recreational skin aids in that. I am sorry whitefolks, but history has taught me the power of keeping my mouth publicly shut. Working in corporate America, working for whitefolks practicaly all my life has taught me that. I ask you, how many of all of y'all ever worked for a black man or woman who OWNED the business? Seriously. And what kills me is that the paucity of Black people on this blog prevents a me-tooist response that would add legitimacy to what I say.
I stick to my guns: Most of you don't appreciate your recreational skin because you face no detriment to having the skin already on your backs. -
First, let's clarify the you are not discussing folks that just enjoy this medium for its anonymous nature.
These are the folks who act like Beavis and Butthead online, when they are librarians in real life. They just get the courage to be someone who they don't have the courage to be in real life. (to my knowledge no analysis has been done of these characters re: race)
Let's also exclude the people who don't post much, or just post about where they ate dinner last night and how yummy it was. (to my knowledge no analysis has been done of these characters re: race)
So, we are down to a group of people who feel this medium allows them to speak their mind, without real consequence but doesn't do so in person.
This would be people who have never been fired, arrested, or faced any real consequence as a result of speaking their mind "to power".
....considering that a lot of the folks on this board are either:
unemployed, or
employed in a consultant role because full time doesn't work for them, or
employed but posting while at work...
I predict your sample size of people who keep their mouths shut is very small.
....I'd bet very few people (of any race) use this medium to regularly express views that they don't express in real life. You have to remember, most people (of all races) have views that are pretty mainstream ....there is no "inner rage of pent up feelings" that they force to stay down at all times.
Life is easier for them.
...don't be jealous.
...don't distain them.
but don't spend your life trying to make them into you, either
...the best you might accomplish is to get them to understand you; you are unlikely to get them to join you.
As a result, you'll save yourself lots of frustration.
but that's just my unsolicited advice. -
MHA wrote:
I am also struck by the lack of black people on this board, especially astounding since we live in Brooklyn, if not Crown Heights.
And what kills me is that the paucity of Black people on this blog prevents a me-tooist respose that would add legitimacy to what I say.
I did notice in the now-infamous "spitting" thread that there was a second voice affirming MHA's posts, Outside Child. She has since been banned. Personally, I thought her posts were direct and honest. This board is riddled with inflammatory posts, but, in my opinion, hers did not fall into that category.
However, her posts did fall outside of mainstream thought, because (again, in my opinion) black experience is so far from the experience of the white, middle-class. I made the judgement (quietly until now) that that was the reason why her posts were interpreted as "inflammatory," and she was subsequently banned.
Very disappointing ... and now we may wonder out loud why we're left without the benefit of black voices. Or not. Because, really, how often do we ever hear authentic black voices? -
whynot_31 wrote:
whynot,
....I'd bet very few people (of any race) use this medium to regularly express views that they don't express in real life. You have to remember, most people (of all races) have views that are pretty mainstream ....there is no "inner rage of pent up feelings" that they force to stay down at all times.
Quite honestly, I think you've spent too much time around white, middle-class people and reading their journalistic outlets if you seriously believe that "most people (of all races) have views that are pretty mainstream."
If you spent time with poor or working-class people, or black people or any other people of color, not to mention the Muslims who everybody in America now seems obsessed with, you would find that many of them can provide a social analysis that rivals that of Noam Chomsky. They don't have to be "educated" to do so (although some definitely are), and their analysis may not sound "educated" to you (or, it might) but it will be incredibly sound. (In fact, I'd argue that education is often a detriment to being able to think outside of the mainstream, but that's a tangent.)
As MHA stated, many people keep their mouths shut when in "polite company." The fear of reprisal on so many levels is too great.
Krow -
Krow-
If you only knew how off you were.... That is what makes avatars great.
Hint: I have not had a straight, white male coworker or boss in 20 years. I integrate the conference room.
...and you have brought a smile to my morning.
I'd be delighted to PM you my resume, or discuss it at Bristen's.
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EXACTLY Krowonhill,
And there are other Blackfolks who have said to me face to face, 'There are dire social consequences if I stand up as you do'. Outside Child was given her walking papers because she mentioned something about Kevin Powell -- who was running for office -- and I think in some way she was also working on his campaign, and she said that publicly. She told me about what she had to endure as a result via PM, and one cannot help but say 'Damn, what's up with THAT?'
Meanwhile Hamilton was making jokes about Black leprechauns and a mythical African 'tribe' called Spittutsis (referring to the Tutsis of Rwanda - an ETHNIC group) and nothing becomes of it. You ask why, you get essentially an 'Oh he's cool.' Translation - too much entitlement to fuck with...
Most of the 'these people' are 'illiberal liberals'. They really only approve of dissent if it fits within a certain parameter, and if they can't 'win' intellectually, then they spend every moment trying to devalue the points you make through feigned attempts at humor. Or they use bureacratic backchannels to try to get rid of you.
One of my early points on a now near forgotten thread was to equate a great deal of gentrification with the 'Green movement'. I said essentially, "Dang, look at all these whitefolks moving in. The same kind of folks who vote for Obama, recycle, and want to help the environment. If they really want to help the environment, then maybe they should consider Crown Heights an ecology worth saving and NOT move in..." I'm sorry, when I did the test with my Black friends, they all cracked up, so when I posted this, the last thing I expected was to be called a racist, and I WAS in so many ways.
Whitefolks don't want to hear the term 'whitefolks'. They want to assume that the skin that they wear somehow doesn't for the most part define them; they want to act like they somehow 'transcend' race -- but they don't get that the whole Jamesian notion of transcendance is once again THEM looking out of their OWN egotism. And this cracks me up. Now whitefolks don't even want to be perceived as white -- while still DEPENDING upon whiteness to say that...
They don't even see my own dissent as dissent. They have NO respect for a Black nationalist stance -- and they don't even UNDERSTAND it.They just don't like the fact that there is one. They see it as something anti-THEM. I've gotten posts from a moderator for instance who asked that I stop 'harassing' some of the posters. My response was, really, 'WHO' have I harassed??! Instead of saying to me, 'We have done some research and have determined that you have been harassing people and as a result you face social consequence because of it, because some whitegirl simply made the comment that she 'FELT' harassed -- that JUSTIFIES their warning. Do you get it? So here I am, essentially now perceived as an online Bigger Thomas threatening whitegirls; harassing whitegirls -- simply because one pointed an online finger and said, 'He is harassing me'. Meanwhile I say in response, 'Waitasec, homeboy over there told me LITERALLY 'go fuck yourself', what will become of that?' There response -- 'Yeah, well, have a nice day.....'
And then there is a moderator who said to me via PM essentially, 'Relax despite Whynot_31 alluding to knowing who you are [and saying smugly, 'You are just asking to be taken out of your recreational skin (an online lynching???)'] no one can know who you are..' -- but then HERE another moderator says 'Well the thing is we KNOW who MHA is' (!!!) And she is a moderator! WTF? What gives her the right to say something like that? Perceived entitlement does. (Note: I edited this)
So, even speaking through an avatar has its consequence, because even HERE there are people who will say in so many words, 'Okay because you identify yourself as Black, we are going to perceive you as such, and use our power and perceived entitlement to ensure you feel that there are things you cannot say."
I started this thread because I wanted to here people speak about what having an avatar means to THEM -- dispassionately. And to paraphrase Whynot_31, 'For the most part for it doesn't mean a goddamned thing...'
And this is because there is no dichotomy between who THEY are online and offline. It doesn't HAVE to. There lives don't require it. But my Afrikan heart does, if I want to survive in this world; and for the other Afrikan hearts out there, they too must appreciate the virtue of recreational skin, because the one that they are in puts a bullseye on them. So, I stick to my guns: They don't understand the importance of having recreational skin because the skin that they already wear affords them social entitlement -- despite their Jamesian desire to transcend it.
They don't face death if they say candidly to the drug dealer: "Will you stop dealing on my corner?"
Or to the Crip gang member: "Will you stop hanging on my steps and dirtying them with your excrement?"
Or to the angry brother who likes to urinate on the steps and talk about gangbanging, or beating 'bitches' up - 'Can you stop doing that?
Or to the white feminist and gay-folk, "Do you REALLY think YOUR struggles equate to what Black people endure(d)?"
Or to Jews, "Don't you think you're acting a wee too much like the very people who fucked you over in the first place?"
Or to Muslims, "Don't you think you ought to be more critical of the crazy motherfuckers in your camp before you say ANYTHING about anybody else?"
You see, most of these people can talk about things free of any dire social consequence.
Lastly, EVERYTIME I see one of these white hipsters giving some of these cold-blooded black killers and weed-dealers soulful handshakes before and after they buy product from them (in their own attempt to transcend race), my afrikan heart shakes just a bit, because I KNOW that they are likely a few heartbeats away from one of these very moderators who probably imbibes, but doesn't have to 'buy'. I imagine the conversation: "You know, there is a dude on your block who is constantly talking about what's going on in the neighborhood..." And the rest will be, as they say, history.
So yeah, wearing recreational skin is very important to me. And, '... the fear of reprisal On SO MANY LEVELS is too great...' to take it off. -
So yeah, wearing recreational skin is very important to me. And, '... the fear of reprisal On SO MANY LEVELS is too great...' to take it off.
and my advice, has consistently been that you should be very careful what you state on line, because your avatar can so easily be broken as a result of everything you have posted.
Personally, I think you are using the "power of your avatar" in a responsible, thoughtful manner. Yes, there have been exceptions, but I perceive them as becoming very rare.
Other regular posters may disagree me, but some always do...
I'll stay on topic:
Where do you go from here?
As a result of your posts, you've gained respect as someone who is very concerned about the neighborhood and would like it to improve. You don't want the marginalized folks to be simply pushed out; you'd like them to get legal jobs, care about where they live, and stay put. Got it.
For the reasons you express above, you feel your safety would be at risk if you were not posting here behind an avatar.
While I believe you could probably accomplish the same thing in real life (granted there would be some tense moments, and you might not be able to talk about drug dealer locations with the same zeal and live), let's go forward with your decision to remain an avatar.
....you may want to begin posting sensitive information via PM to folks that have demonstrated an ability to get things done with your information, such as the cops who troll this board, and any regular posters who you trust.
You'll continue to integrate your work's conference room; I'll continue to intergrate mine. -
YOU make my point.
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MHA wrote: YOU make my point.
Depending on which point we are talking about, I've never claimed to disagree with your point.
....btw, you still haven't told me if you have Skype.
or whether you want my notes from old professor. (I'm sure they are in a box somewhere, I never throw anything away) -
krowonhill wrote: [quote=stacey]
Thanks for elucidating, Stacey. I don't want to dismiss your grit in speaking your mind (or the grit of those of any color who taught you to always speak your mind), but I am left wondering why we've come to such different conclusions about the wisdom of always speaking one's truth. I don't do it, because I fear the consequences. Do you think that makes me a coward? (I won't hold it against you if you do.) I also believe that the consequences are potentially more severe for some amongst us (such as the African Americans neighbors who partially raised you).
I was trying to make a point that I "speak up because of who and what I was influenced by growing up".
Why would I think you are a coward? People handle situations in their own way and who am I to judge how someone lives their life? People handle things in different way. I would feel sorry for you if I found out that you were being bullied or taken advantage of and you didn't stick up for yourself, and if I had a way to help you I would. I have seen too much in my life to ever be judgmental. -
If I may add:
Sometimes one does not get things done by speaking immediately, or directly.
You often get a lot more done in life if you are a person working on the inside to slowly change things, as opposed to the guy who is throwing rocks at the building.
....whatever method works for you.
I just ask that you have a method: This world is in serious need of change. -
MHA, "And then there is a moderator above who said to me via PM essentially, 'Relax despite Whynot_31 alluding to knowing who you are [and saying smugly, 'You are just asking to be taken out of your recreational skin (an online lynching???)'] no one can know who you are.."
I've never PM'd you or replied to your PM, if you are talking about me, and I would not say anything like the above and lie by stating "no one can know who you are."
Maybe you are confusing regular members that you constantly PM for moderators? Either way. Just wanted to clarify. IF you were talking about me. If not then that person can speak up. -
Okay, Mamacita, I will have to check my PM's. I could've swore it was you. I will check right now, and assuming it's not you, make the change in my thread noting that what I said was in error.
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Mamacita is right -- it wasn't her. It was another moderator. But the point remains the same. And here's the thing. I have no idea who these members are. I can say with all honesty I've never met anyone who has written on the Brooklynian, or rather, I have no idea who that would be. The fact that she can say that there are members who have met me is troubling -- for how would they know who I am? They are either mistaken, or correct. I presume the latter.
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MHA wrote: I can say with all honesty I've never met anyone who has written on the Brooklynian, or rather, I have no idea who that would be. The fact that she can say that there are members who have met me is troubling -- for how would they know who I am? They are either mistaken, or correct. I presume the latter.
good presumption.
....this is why I have been telling you to be careful what you say on line.
PM me if you wish. You've asked to remain anonymous on these boards, and I will respect that. I ask any readers who know who MHA is to do the same. -
MHA, I had PM'd you, not to say "relax, no one could know who you are" but to say that no one would be permitted to reveal your identity on this site.
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Meat boy is 6'4" and 220 lbs of solid muscle. He rules with an iron fist. We quake at the sight of his sock puppet.
....actually, I think its more of an instance of people understanding where MHA is coming from.
We may not believe he would be in as much danger as he does, but we still respect his wishes. -
MHA wrote:
I saw the posts threatening to reveal MHA's identity, and I was appalled. And, of course, the talk of "oh, we all know who MHA is" becomes subtly threatening in this context. I still can't believe that these threats were unchecked by the moderators. If not to put an immediate end to behavior like this, what are the moderators for?
And then there is a moderator who said to me via PM essentially, 'Relax despite Whynot_31 alluding to knowing who you are [and saying smugly, 'You are just asking to be taken out of your recreational skin (an online lynching???)'] no one can know who you are..' -- but then HERE another moderator says 'Well the thing is we KNOW who MHA is' (!!!) -
whynot, since you like to give other people advice so much, here is some advice for you: I think you should start listening to the people around you, instead of trying to take them out for beers.
And whynot, since you like telling stories so much, here is a story for you:
I have one friend who is black - yes, only one. (I am white, in case anyone missed that.) Over the years, my friend and I have talked about all matter of things under the sun (relationships, sex, money, etc.), everything except for race. Then, suddenly, after ten years of intimate friendship, she started to talk to me about race. When I asked her why she was suddenly open to discussing race, she said, "I decided that I could trust you."
My friend is fair-skinned, treats her hair chemically, and dresses immaculately. She is Ivy-league educated with multiple masters degrees. She is a highly successful member of the professional middle-class. Perhaps surprisingly to most of you, her ideas about race - and, especially, her feelings about race - align with those of MHA and also Outside Child (even if her politics do not). And, yes, when she talks to me (a white person), she uses the phrase, "white people," without distinguishing between them.
One final piece of advice for you, whynot: try asking yourself, "Am I trustworthy?" and really listening to the answer that comes up inside you. I say this without taking any moral high ground. After all, it took my friend ten years to trust me with her intimate thoughts and feelings - about race.
P.S.: Removed (see moderator's note, below)
MOD warning: cursing at other people is against the rules of the site. -
krow-
Read carefully. He was being told that he should be careful what he posts on line because people may figure out who he is in real life.
As we've written above, of the folks that I know who know his identity, none of them will reveal it here. We will respect his wishes.
However, there is (shocking!) a world outside of Brooklynian. This world reads Brooklynian not for the purpose of posting inane banter for days on end, but to get something they need. ....then they leave.
Police read it for leads.
Journalists read it for stories.
...and less reputable characters read it to see who is causing the police to bother them.
All of these people have brains, and could easily figure out who a poster is.
For example, it would not take much digging to figure out who I am.
....on occasion I post stuff that I might regret later, but I always try to keep in mind the fact that this is a board that serves the very neighborhood I live in, and a neighborhood I quite actively participate in.
P.S. It is true, this board is the source of a lot of amusement in my life. Regarding your friend, talking about race is very difficult and I am glad you have gained her trust.
It is true, it is risky to assume that folks are not "taming down" their feelings and opinions on race simply to meet the level that they think the listener is comfortable. ....but I stand by my post above re: the reasons I believe they don't want to talk about it all the time: Quite simply, it isn't on their mind all the time.
....they have found a way to be themselves in spite of cultural hegemony.
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58711 -
whynot_31 wrote: krow-
whynot,
Read carefully. He was being told that he should be careful what he posts on line because people may figure out who he is in real life.
You threatened to out him. I may not have many black friends but I do have a lot of gay friends, and I recognize the threat of an "outing" when I see it.
It was despicable behavior though, so I'm not surprised you want to disown it.
Krow -
I have nothing to own, or disown.
He has a career and a lifestyle he feels would be threatened.
He and I seem to enjoy some pretty thought out conversations that other posters don't enjoy.
...and I have a conscience.
...and a resume, if you want it. But your opinion of me seems set.
If he ever wants to "come out" here, he will. Until then, those who know who he is will simply respect his wishes, even though we don't make the same decision re: our level of anonimity.
...his sloppyness about his identity put him at risk of anyone with brain learning who he is, and I've consistently encouraged him to exercise more caution.
P.S. I'm not among them, but you do know that many people believe outing advances gay rights, yes? -
Krow-
For example, here is good advice that I give to readers wishing to remain anonymous that you may find as "threatening":
a. Don't disclose what area you live in.
b. Don't ask questions at public meetings using the same type of language you use on line.
c. Don't discuss your involvement in neighborhood activities in which there are a limited number of participants.
d. Don't talk about how you are really good friends with such and such business or such and such person.
e. Don't allow your picture to be posted by others online.
f. Don't disclose your avatar name to people, even those who you think are not on the boards.
g. Don't post the same thing here that you post on a website that has your real name on it (classic!).
h. Um, don't use an avatar that in anyway identifies you.
i. Don't take pictures, and then post them on line. People can figure out that the avatar posting the picture = the person they saw take the picture.
j. Do not say what you do for a living, or type in a manner that demonstrates an indepth knowledge of some profession.
If it seems like really basic advice, I agree. If it seems like a lot of work, I agree. That is why my avatar is very thin. Anyone who wants to meet me, can. -
In my ongoing efforts to remain anonymous, I have decided to use a picture of bearded Winter Anthony as my avatar during the summer, and will return to a clean shaven Summer Anthony avatar in the winter.
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anthonycm wrote: In my ongoing efforts to remain anonymous, I have decided to use a picture of bearded Winter Anthony as my avatar during the summer, and will return to a clean shaven Summer Anthony avatar in the winter.
genius!
I will post pictures of my dog that have him wearing his collar when it was new.
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WTF???
a. I live in Brooklyn.
b. I don't ask questions in public meetings
c. I don't discuss my involvement in public meetings -- what public meetings??
d. what good friends?
e. what picture? There are pictures of me Whynot_31? Since you are SO
CONCERNED WHYNOT Publicly show these pics?
f. who have I disclosed my avatar name to?
g. no idea what you are referring to here.
h. my avatar identifies me? really?
i. I have never taken a picture and posted it.
j. I have never said what I do for a living.
thank you for your feigned concern whynot_31, seriously. I really can't wait to meet you.
Krownhill, you are right, it IS despicable, and the moderators have allowed him to get away with it. Here he is feigning concern. And it is allowed. -
MHA-
Check your PM box.
Items a - j are advice to all posters, not just you.
...you are only guilty of a few of the items, but not all.
I will not disclose your identity. Should you wish to disclose it, that is solely your job.
Frankly, you have stated you wish to remain anonymous over and over, yet acted in a way that people as dumb as me could put the pieces together. In a way, I've decided to out you to yourself.
Man, exercise caution. Your voice is valued and needed. Franklin Avenue continues to be rife with risks, both real and imagined.
Again, you'll get no "outing" from this short, portly, little white guy ...only advice. Advice that you can discard or use.
Feign and self deceive away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception -
MHA, Krow, et al,
An old article on White Hat Hackers:
http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=honorscollege_theses
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