. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque

Hamilton wrote: [quote=whynot_31]Was the Atlantic ave mosque in anyway associated with the one being proposed? I'd hate for all Christians to be banned as a result of the antics and insanity of the Westboro "baptist" church

.

i must be writing cryptic messages , if so advise where i compared atlantic ave mosque with the" trophy" one
to be built at ground zero.
the atlantic ave statement in response to a Boygabriel post.

...and my post is a direct response to it.

You are describing acts of terrorism by "muslim" extremists against the United States, and note that a mosque on Atlantic Avenue contributed some cash to terrorist groups.

I am asking "What does that have to do with the mosque and community center being proposed near the former World Trade Center?"

It seemed to me as if you are associating the two, which would correspond to thoughts like: "The actions of a fews mosques = the intentions of all mosques. The actions of a few muslims = the intentions of all muslims".

If you are not, then apologies from me and serious kudos to you. You have successfully engaged in the hard work that it takes to not associate the actions of an individuals with the characteristics of a group.

The work that Stacey describes above.

Let's not kid ourselves, it is difficult work to not hate all members of a given race/gender/religion after one was violated (raped, mugged, attacked by a plane) by a subset of that group.

Let's help the rest of America do the work. ...let's support the mosque. The organizers can use it much like the church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) use Salt Lake City.

Allow me to explain:

A few weeks ago, I was in Salt Lake City, the headquarters of the LDS.

The Mormons have taken an attitude that basically is:

"We know many of you think we are freaks and don't understand us. Here, come to our temple and tour our facilities. Ask our guide any questions you wish. See our children and families going about their daily lives in our community center and temple. Please don't be afraid of us, or shun our children and centers of worship once you return to wherever it is you are from. Thank you."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

Free shuttles from the airport.
Free tours in multiple languages.
...from 7 AM - 10 PM.
Year round.

It was all really well done.

I can't think of a better place for the Muslims to have such a community center, than near the origin of the unfair hatred that is often levied against them: The former World Trade Center.

...and I believe the time to do it is now.

I don't understand what the relevance of bringing up the Atlantic Ave mosque was without the implied equivalence. FYI, that is the only mosque being discussed in this thread, since the cultural center planned for several blocks from the former WTC site is not a mosque.

This whole thing is a B.S. Repug distraction from their shooting down healthcare for the 9/11 first responders. It is geared toward rural and suburban Republicans who don't understand what a vast difference 2 blocks makes in a city like New York.

As a result of this thread, today I've gone from merely believing it is a location I don't object to, to a location I strongly believe in.

I now hope that two blocks isn't a huge difference to people.

I hope the tourists visit the World Trade Center Memorial, then the community center in the same day.

I hope that the builders of this center look at places like the LDS complex, or the huge mosque-community center I visited when I was in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (a predominantly Muslim country) a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_Negara

...both places do a really good job at changing people's preconceived notions by providing education in really nice facilities.

I'd love for a well financed, well run, place like either of those to be in New York.

...And, I hope money comes from all over the world to support it in the present location, where it has the potential do the most good.

Imagine the hundreds of thousands of people that could visit both sites each year, and the intense mental work and growth that could result!

After they visit those two sites, they could visit the Statue of Liberty. It would be excellent, and be an example to the world of our ongoing moral values, as well as our historic history of being a diverse nation.

Hamilton, do the organizers of the mosque-community center have a "donate now" button on their website?

Re: Farrells. Cool, I'll totally be able to find him there.

Re: Tourists. I hope so. It is a wonderful opportunity to showcase NY's muslim community, and the contributions they make. A lot of places in the US don't have large muslim communities, Detroit and NY are notable exceptions. ...Not a lot of tourists go to Detroit.

Re: 52 states. Apparently he is not the only one. http://www.ask.com/questions-about/All-52-States-of-USA

Boygabriel wrote:

i responded with a couple of incidents that occurred ,that may have tarnished the image of all muslims for some people.

Incidents which, like 9/11, are logically, morally and thus ultimately irrelevant to whether this community center for fellow Americans should be built.

They were examples that justified nothing of moral or legal significance.

But, sadly, they DO continue to influence people's perceptions of muslims (both in America and overseas).

Although muslims (like Mormons) should not have to state "please do not make incorrect assumptions about us", the builders of this community center likely have the goal of exposing the world to their membership with the hopes that such misconceptions will eventually fade away.

They correctly perceive the problem, and are proposing a constructive, well thought out solution.

More power to them.

whynot_31 wrote: But, sadly, they DO continue to influence people's perceptions of muslims (both in America and overseas).

Completely understood, and I agree.

But they are irrelevant factors to the legality and morality of building a community center & prayer room for fellow Americans 2 blocks away from the WTC site in a neighborhood where mosques are already present.

Let's be clear here, the person who started this thread stands against the mosque downtown and also thinks it ISN'T inappropriate to call spitting Black people 'Spit-tutsis' and also jokes of me being among many other things, a Black Leprechaun because I'm proud of (said in a sing-song manner) 'me Irish-Scottish ancestry.' He's jokes consistently about race in an offensive manner, and now here he wraps himself in the flag and speaks lovingly of firefighters who died at 'Ground Zero'... How is his stance not one of bigotry and intolerance? Seriously people...

Hamilton, what Tea Party denomination do you belong to? The Crown Heights faction?

Not that he doesn't make a point about the idea of a Islamic cultural center being so close to 'Ground Zero' is somewhat impolitic --- because it is, no matter how you slice it, but do we really think this is discourse with someone who has thought about the issue dispassionately?

Hamilton, your racially-intolerant chickens are home cock-a-doodle-doodling.....

FWIW, I used to work down where the community center/mosque is being built. Often when I walked to lunch, I'd pass a long row of presumably Muslim guys praying on prayer rugs on sidewalk of Warren Street btw Broadway and Church Street. So obviously there's an actual need for a prayer room in that area - to the benefit not only of those who pray, but of those who like unobstructed sidewalks as well.

Also, I would like to say for the record that Abe Foxman is an embarrassment and worse. He should be fired for betraying the explicit mission of the Anti-Defamation League. In terms of politics and policy, I'd say the ADL has a checkered history, but this is really beyond.

Can anyone explain any of the following behavior from these idiots:

1. What exactly does a sign that says simply "Sharia" mean? Maybe they're proponents of islamic law?

2. Why is it written in a blood-like font?

3. What does Sharia have to do with a community center and prayer room?



Is this the best the opponents have to offer? Is this who Half-term governor Palin and Rush Limbaugh inspire to action?

Is this the best the opponents have to offer?

This question has no relevance. Since the beginning this has been a race to harnass people's most primal, undeveloped, and reactionary sides.

In other words, many of those opposed do not claim (nor are they seeking) to demonstrate their best. ....this is about giving people permission to demonstrate their worst. In this light, I'd argue that the above folks are admirably stepping up to the task they feel they have been given.

....and it is starting to genuinely scare me that such intolerance, can be quickly awakened by merely telling them things like they are:

1. Honoring 9/11 Victims and/or
2. Defeating Sharia.

....But they are not "dumb". ....I predict someone opposed to the project is smart enough to show up to at a rally supporting the project under the guise of being a part. All is takes it for that individual to light a flag on fire and we will have absolute chaos on our hands.

stacey wrote: That's interestingly that you mention flag burning that happens to be the one of the two forms of protest that actually hurt me personally. I can see that turning into a real clusterfuck

The flag is powerful symbol to me as well. Like you, I have all sorts of emotions and feelings that I attach to it.

Unfortunately, the only thing more powerful than waving it and invoking speeches about "America's Ideals and Great Promises" ....is burning it.

Both sides of this debate are presently seeing who can wave it (figuritively or literally) the most. History shows, the one who waves it the most and the most convincingly is often the one who wins!

The way for the those opposed to the project to convince the media that those for the project have no right to wave the flag is to get someone that is "supposedly for the project" to either literally or figuritively burn it.

It could even be "genuinely for the project" angry 17 year old Muslim kid who doesn't understand the potential implications of his act.

.....I fear it's coming, and I fear people's reaction.

Ah, the game of capture the flag. In this case, those for the project can be "stripped of the flag" in this fashion, but those opposed to the project can not be. Those opposed have the magic of marching under the stereotype of what people think "great america" has always been: Brave soldiers, police and firemen.

.....no matter how successful Park51 is at finding Muslim heros, a lot of people are going to dismiss them.

When a good "set of heros" trumps the right to religion, we are on the wrong track.

....which leads to two scenarios: That flag gets burnt by someone who thinks it represents nothing but bullshit.

....or a somewhat clever mole.

What's sad is that it is our religious tolerance that has prevented us from having the extremist problem that Europe has.

But if O'Reilly & Palin's army of bigots have their way, we'll have more home grown extremists in no time.

Yup.

and what distance, exactly, is far enough, hamilton?

this is such a dumb "debate" our country seems to have been bamboozled into having.

THERE IS NO CHOICE HERE. bloomberg, obama, whoever can't disallow the un-mosque -- because as carny correctly observes, calling this place a mosque is as accurate as calling a hospital with a one-room chapel a cathedral -- because doing so violates the constitution. there is no "except when we don't feel like it" clause in the first amendment.

if ground zero and its environs (of indeterminate size) are so sacred, what about, i don't know, every other business in the area? is century 21 an appropriate neighbor?

i'm glad stacey pointed out the many muslim victims of 9/11. that the voice of the victims' families has been compressed into one perspective is very sad. the people who died on 9/11 were PEOPLE, not symbols. they didn't all think the same things, want the same things, or believe in the same things. acting like they did reduces them from individual humans to a political bludgeon, and it's disgusting.

and acting like this fake scandal is about one community center and not about the cold-blooded desire of certain members of the press and political class to turn fear into vote-winning racism and xenophobia is at best disingenuous.