. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque

No, that's not the issue. You're making it about yourself b/c you don't want to deal with the central issue:

At the core of the victim families' logic is "I associate all Muslims with 9/11."

That's not grounds to keep a group from building a community center & prayer room, for any reason or by any power whatsoever.

Boygabriel wrote: No, that's not the issue. You're making it about yourself b/c you don't want to deal with the central issue:

At the core of the victim families' logic is "I associate all Muslims with 9/11."

That's not grounds to keep a group from building a community center & prayer room, for any reason or by any power whatsoever.

Allow me to take a short break from my vacation....

If I were to be posting instead of on vacation, I would actually rephrase Boygabriels post to Hamilton to read something like:

whynot_31 wrote: No, that's not the issue. You're making it about yourself b/c you don't want to deal with the central issue:

At the core of the some of the 9/11 victims is a is a logic "I associate all Muslims with 9/11." On the otherhand, many of the families have done the hard work (such as that described by Stacey and Homeowner above) to not become become bigoted. As Whyfi notes, some families that were victimized on 9/11 are even coming out in support of the community center.

I admire their sense of hard work, and committment to the values that make this country great.

But even if the 9/11 familes were united in their opposition, that would not be grounds to keep a group from building a community center & prayer room. The great american ideal is a society that is not governed based on opinion polls, but instead one that is based on civil rights. Religious freedom is central to those rights.

What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right.

...but that's just my two cents.

....so, we are back to assuming we know the builder's intentions.

As I've stated above, I assume that they are building a community center, which will both give muslims a place to hang out and socialize, and tourists a place to see people go about their daily lives. In far more eloquent terms, the organizers have said this is their intentions as well.

What is the foundation for your belief that they wish to be inconsiderate to 9/11 families or provoke us?

As a person who currently works in a section of the city with a large muslim population, and supervises 5 employees who are presently fasting, I choose to believe the organizers.

....but I must admit, had you asked me in late 2001 whether this community center should be built, I probably would not have held the same opinion. My opinion would have been similar to Hamiliton's.

This is why we have civil rights.
Civil Rights prevent the country from doing the wrong thing while some people are wrestling with issues, or have adopted opinions that are based on emotions that are inconsistent with our country's core values.

<<<<< waves flag, vigorously and convincingly around office.

Hamilton wrote: as i stated earlier i feel to build the center that close to ground zero is an act of arrogance and indifference to the families of those killed on 9/11.

Yet you still haven't explained WHY you think that it's an arrogant, insensitive move. You say that you don't associate the actions of the extremists with the moderates, yet you still persist. This tells me that you have one of two beliefs 1) those building the center are not moderates or 2) if those building the center are modrates, you feel that they should associate themselves with the actions of extremists and, under the weight of guilt, offer to move. If you don't associate them, why should they associate themselves?

Hamilton wrote: [quote=WhyFi]Yet you still haven't explained WHY you think that it's an arrogant, insensitive move.

it's probably has something to do with the 3000 killed on 9/11
Why does it have something to do with that? The people building the center have nothing to do with 9/11. What is the connection?

I just have a couple of things to say:

There's a mosque 4 blocks away- should it move so as to not upset people? If so, how far is acceptable? 14th Street? 72nd? How about Manhattan? It's a damn slippery slope and if you think you're not next you're fucking kidding yourself.

So, by saying that Muslims and their recent terrorist acts make them unsuitable neighbors and therefore they should "go somewhere else," what about the havoc that so-called 'Christians' have brought to this country? Uh- let's see- they've killed people, have bombed medical facilities that performed abortions, (and my personal favorite)- they've called for war in the name of God (good 'ole G doublya!), and, oh yea, they've told people to NOT BUILD HERE all in the name of the USA which has inexplicably become a euphemism for 'under God.'

I was techincally raised a Christian, but I am Catholic. I do not see myself as one of "those" Christians. Is there no difference from the way most Muslims must feel??? Is the minority of that religion supserceding the majority of good and honorable Muslims?

Boygabriel wrote: Thankfully in this country we usually don't let irrational illogical emotional perceptions trump the rights of individuals based on race or religion.

In this case, Hamilton feels otherwise.

Once a country takes that step, it is very difficult for it ever regain its footing, and every group that is not able to convince the majority of their "value, merits and intentions" is at risk.

.....democracy is not a manner is which rights are fairly assigned.
This nation, along with most nations, has tried the "democracy approach to human rights" in the past.

As a result of enacting what was popular:

It trampled the rights of blacks, and deemed them less than human.

It prohibited women from voting and owning property.

It prohibited gays from marrying and adopting.

(more examples and details upon request)


As a result of social movements in the past and presently underway, this nation now treats members of the above groups far better.

Hamilton is right, 9/11 was not another day at the office.

....but history has shown that waiting for everyone to heal from some trauma (as defined by Homeowner) is not an option.

Quite simply, it isn't an option because not everyone does the work Stacey describes.

...and some people have formed opinions about the value of other groups that have no foundation in reality. Their opinions are merely based on what the media has told them, or perhaps on some primal fear of people different than themselves.

If we were to base decisions on "intent", or (as Hamilton writes) the "effect" of actions regardless of the builders intent, we would end applying subjective criteria that would be based on popular opinion.

As a result of being an absolute, Civil Rights frequently require people to sit back and look at the overall good (or negative) impact for a society. I argue that whenever someone or some group is denied their civil rights, and we sit back ad either deny it or endorse it, we are all worse off in the long run.

This isn't easy work.

The creation of a just society is a constant struggle, one that requires vigilance and a unwavering commitment to a bill of rights.

In many instances, the work requires that you put aside your personal feelings in exchange for the pursuit of a larger goal. One can have good intentions (for example "respect the feelings of those who have yet to heal"), but the effect of those intentions be negative (i.e. result in the discrimination against another person or group).

Let's keep moving forward. Let's never go back.

(waves flag)

WhyFi wrote: Working vacation, eh?

shut it.

This thing is crack. I can't surpress the urge to tell people when they are not making sense. I don't know why.

Bill W. (the founder of AA) needs to come back to life and form group for this.

Yup, and that's a pretty well written piece.

Basically, this group has just articulated what a good, hard working mental health therapist is able to achieve when he/she has a good, hard working client in the room.

....both the client and the therapist heal and grow.

When one holds on to anger and generalizations, one does not just hurt others. One hurts themselves.

hmmmmm :P

(shhhhhhh)

tl;dr: bigotry

<<<<
Folds flag, and walks home with it ...having given it a good day's use.



P.S. If you'd like one, don't worry there are more. Let's not let folks steal the flag and define it as something this country does not stand for.....

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1680&bih=914&q=american+flag&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

As usual, The Onion nails it.

Whatchuwant wrote:
Great op-ed in NY Times a couple of days ago speaking of this very thing. A Case of Mental Courage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/opinion/24brooks.html?_r=1

I couldn't help but think of my experience on The Brooklynian when I read these words:

We have confirmation bias; we pick out evidence that supports our views. We are cognitive misers; we try to think as little as possible. We are herd thinkers and conform our perceptions to fit in with the group.

In this case though I'm with the herd, so that makes today easier for me.