Shomrim

Shomrim may be lic'd as security guards. ....a lic that does not take long to receive.

Of course, most of the time they seem to catch people without incident.

In these instances (in Crown Heights, not Williamsberg) a combination of Shomrim and citizens seem to have chased suspects or merely followed them until police arrived:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=27914&catid=23#c
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=27894&catid=23#c
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=27745&catid=23
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=27408&catid=23#c

(note: Whynot does not endorse the comments of people on the above blog. Gotta love the racial harmony that is being expressed - sarcasm!)

....at some point though, even regular citizens seem to have the right to hold people until the police arrive. Here's a recent event wherein some guys cornered some local kids who were doing things much more serious than whacking off in a car or the crimes I reference above. (i.e. shooting a shot gun, almost hitting a guy with a car, and yelling religious/racial epithets)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/nyregion/01mosque.html

So, it isn't clear to me when people have the right to detain someone. It must be up to the police on a case by case basis.

Personally, I totally agree with what the Muslim guys did.

Although the Jewish guys who got shot weren't pursuing as serious of a crime, I'm not opposed to their actions either.

It does, however, blur the lines. At what point do I (a hypothetical criminal) know that I am not about to get the crap beat out of me by a gang of vigilantes? ....when do I lose my freedom and right to self defense? How do I know you are waiting for the police, and not just waiting for some more friends to show up and administer street justice?

BTW, if you are whacking off in a car so often that the local patrol knows about you ....you have a problem on several levels. If you are doing this while carrying a weapon, and then discharge it at four people who corner you.... I'm at least ok with Assault in the 1st degree. (I'll let the lawyers debate on that charge vs. attempted murder)

Definitely a funny movie. I saw it when it first aired.

too bad citizens can't be armed too like in those southern states.


back in the day i know a associate of mines he got held by a group of them. they did well. the guy was up to no good trying to rob a place.

King without a crown wrote: Atleast they had the balls do something, most people on this board wouldn't have gotten involved other than posting about it the next day.

if nyc allow citizens to carry guns out in the open and not this draconian gun laws where only cops and criminals carry and some rich guys.

I think more citizens would get involved.

"I" heard back in the day some asian kids getting robbed almost every day by a bunch of black kids. cops did nothing. I hear they got a bunch of kids after school and beat the snot out of those kids, they never came back and rob any asian kids again in that area and that time.

side effect of those kids coming together was some of them formed into a street gang. it was meant to be self protection lol, like most street gangs it started out as such.

brooklyn back when i was growing up is much like philly now, where the schools did nothing. cops did nothing.

September 3, 2010In Protecting Hasidic Neighborhoods, Squads Patrol Without Guns or BadgesBy COREY KILGANNONNY TIMES

On Thursday night in Brooklyn, a suspect was chased and quickly surrounded by a group of patrolmen in blue uniform jackets who ordered him to halt.
The man, David Flores, 33, who witnesses say was fondling himself in front of children in a Hasidic section of Brooklyn known as Borough Park, was about to be caught by the men in blue. He began shooting at the men, all unarmed, with a .22-caliber handgun, the authorities said, hitting and wounding four before being tackled.
Although these streets are in the jurisdiction of the New York Police Department — the 66th Precinct — these patrolmen were not police officers. In fact, two were bakers, one was a dry cleaner and the fourth sells insurance.
They were volunteers with the Brooklyn South Safety Patrol, a licensed, unarmed civilian group. They wore blue jackets with emblems, but they also wore skull caps and had forelocks of the Hasidic. They yelled in Yiddish as chaos erupted about 8 p.m. on 49th Street between 9th and 10th Avenues.
Within minutes, the area was swarming with patrol members, who roped off the area with yellow crime scene tape — marked “shomrim,” a word derived from the Hebrew word for guards.
While few outside the community are familiar with the group, the shooting cast a spotlight on it and its role on the streets. There are similar groups in Brooklyn’s three other ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods: Williamsburg, Crown Heights and Flatbush.
In Borough Park, the patrol members are as natural a sight as men in black coats and hats. Many area residents are more likely to call the patrol’s hot line number than 911.
The calls go to the Brooklyn shomrim communications center — a phone in a truck tire repair shop owned by Sam and Mendy Rosenberg. The brothers go from fixing tires to answering about 100 calls a day and then dispatching shomrim responders by radio.
“We have a faster response than the police, about a minute and a half,” said Mendy Rosenberg, his big hands and mechanic’s outfit smeared with grease. If a suspect is trying to escape by car, he can call upon hundreds of people to block streets and bridge entrances.
“I can shut down the streets in half of Brooklyn in seconds — instant traffic jam,” he said. “We’ve trapped many perps that way.”
The Borough Park shomrim was formed more than 20 years ago and informally called the Bakery Boys because the original members were bakers who delivered bread at night and saw a lot of car break-ins.
The force works out of a small headquarters on 14th Avenue above a hardware store, and the members respond to matters ranging from burglary to shoplifting to missing children. Some drive vehicles with official emblems, but mostly they work — two to a vehicle, like police patrols — in their personal cars, some with lights and sirens, many without. The tools of the trade are a light jacket and a walkie-talkie. They mix Yiddish and police jargon.
“Our role is to try and get the police to an incident as quickly as possible and make sure they apprehend the perp or address the problem,” said Simcha Bernath, the shomrim’s coordinator. Members do not carry batons, pepper spray or handcuffs, he said, and they try to detain suspects only as a last resort.
“If it looks like they will get away before the police come, we will try to hold them in a professional way,” said Mr. Bernath, an accountant by trade.
Brooklyn shomrim groups have not been without controversy, like accusations of vigilantism and actions that stoke racial tensions. In a 1996 case, several members of a Crown Heights group were arrested after they were accused of beating up a black man whose nephew they suspected of a bike theft.
A police spokesman, Paul J. Browne, said there was a “long tradition” of citizen block watches and citizen patrols, like the shomrim. The department has had a “close working relationship” with them, he said.
“These are citizen volunteers,” he said, “and so there is always the concern that they keep their own personal safety in mind and that their mission is to kind of be eyes and ears, and radio for the police or call for the police, particularly if there is a dangerous situation.”
It is not unusual for members to encounter gunfire. In fact, on Monday night the same Borough Park shomrim patrol helped foil an armed bank robbery and was fired upon before helping to track down the robber. But Thursday was the first time that shomrim members were hit, members said. Two remained hospitalized on Friday.
Police officials said charges against Mr. Flores, who accidentally shot himself in the left arm during the attack, included attempted murder, assault and criminal use of a firearm. The authorities said he had a long history of arrests.
Some patrol members complained that the police had ignored their report of an encounter with the same man a week earlier, but the police said they had no knowledge of it .
Regardless, Mr. Bernath said, the shomrim has “a good working relationship” with the local precinct.
“The precinct is really doing anything and everything to help the community,” he said, adding that the police “act fairly and professionally with the information we give them.”
Al Baker contributed reporting.

King without a crown wrote: Police want the public to get involved by being a good witness,calling 911 or even holding a suspect until responding Officers arrive on the scene. Police don't want people taking matters into their own hands. These guys were alerted to a pervert jerking off in front of children and they followed him in effort to assist the Police.

Uh, no. A) they didn't simply follow him - they coordinated vehicles to block him off and had foot patrol to close in - if this isn't "taking matters in to their own hands," I don't know what is. They we're trying to assist the police? According to the article you posted, it looks like they were frustrated with the lack of response from the police and decided to try to get the job done themselves. That sounds like a nice recipe - authorize a vigilante group to assist the police... only to have the police ignore their requests, pushing said vigilantes to make stupid decisions that result in gunfire. Bravo.

I guess you're unaware that you didn't address either of the points I'd raised.

That's okay - don't expect much else from you.

in a unrelated city in a unrelated country called canada, a asian store owner got arrested for kidnapping for making a citizens arrest for holding a thief till the cops came.
instead of arresting the thief the cops arrested the store owner and workers for kidnapping.

the same thief who came and stole very frequently. so the owners got sick of waiting for the cops to show up way later when the thief already left. so they decided to hold him this time till the cops show up.

but the two does have common english law behind them.

In-vest-ing in Jewish watchmen
AP

Last Updated: 5:17 AM, September 7, 2010

Posted: 3:46 AM, September 7, 2010

Comments: 2 More Print An unarmed Orthodox Jewish community-watch group will receive five bulletproof vests so that its members can safely patrol neighborhood streets.

Sen. Eric Adams (D-Brooklyn) says he'll buy the vests using his own funds and donate them to the Shomrim safety patrol. Each costs $400.

"It's just about giving the civilian patrols the necessary equipment so they can do their jobs," Adams said yesterday.

Four members of the group were wounded Sept. 2 when a suspect accused of exposing himself to young girls opened fire on them.

When the patrollers approached the 33-year-old man, he fled and they gave chase. While trying to force the suspect to the ground, he pulled out a weapon and opened fire.


Benny J. Stumbo
SAFER: Sen. Eric Adams gives the Shomrim patrol group its vests yesterday. Two of the group's members were hit in the hand, one in the neck and the other in the stomach. All are expected to recover.

The nearly 100-member volunteer Shomrim group is licensed and works alongside police to patrol Borough Park.

Adams said yesterday that he hoped to encourage other elected officials to support the group.

He says five vests will be sufficient for patrols at any given time. But he says it would be best if all members of the patrol had their own vests.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/in_vest_ing_in_jewish_watchmen_HHzLZBtvqHm9JAwtyWJ1KI#ixzz0yqJqTPVt

like i said too bad citizens can't be armed like in the south!!

AW, I guarantee that if you lived in the South "back in the day" you would have quite different thoughts about armed vigilantes. They really took that "yellow peril" thing seriously as well.

Try rolling with one of these or these.

Mougar wrote: [quote=King without a crown]A citizen may make an arrest for a personally observed misdemeanor or any felony.

Jerking off in public is a misdemeanor and the Shomrim didn't personally observe it. So they broke the law in arresting him?

This would mean they broke the law whenever they are utilized to apprehend a shoplifter on behalf of a shopkeeper. Nope. ...that does not seem to be how the law is being interpreted.

As licensed security guards, it seems they are able to act in the role of a "Gated Homeowner's Association Security Force".

...only the "community" in this case is located on public property, not private. ....and, in this instance, it seems to have fluid boundaries.

(no pun intended vis a vis Sperm)

Needless to say, NYC has wrestled with this issue before.

Historically, the Guardian Angels and the Nation of Islam have both stepped in with patrols when they felt police protection was inadequate.

Sometimes the patrols had the "blessing" of the police dept, other times the relationship was poor.