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Crow Hill as a neighborhood — Brooklynian

Crow Hill as a neighborhood

xlizellx
xlizellx
edited November -1 in Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
So there is always the debate of the Crown Heights / Prospect Heights border. Many people have suggested having a "new" neighborhood designation for what is Crown Heights North/West. Crow Hill is one name that gets used occasionally. On Brownstoner they placed the Jewish Hospital in the neighborhood of "Crow Hill".

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2010/09/building_of_the_132.php

Interesting
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Comments

  • mha
    mha
    Gentry Mound?
  • drkman
    drkman
    Crow Hill was the original name of Crown Heights.
  • mha
    mha
    Yep, that's my understanding. Any insight on whether or not that name is as result of the 'crows' which lived here, or some other reason?
  • sweet tea
    sweet tea
    i've heard that MHA, but i've also heard that there was a ...tannery? slaughterhouse? something like that ...that attracted actual crows.

    i have no way of knowing, but my guess is that the name started with actual crows and then was perhaps applied to the inhabitants. but was the area even black then, or jewish (or something else)? was "crow" a common slur? (if not, then 10 points to my version -- i would think if the name was meant to describe the inhabitants, particularly if unkindly, it might well be less poetic.)
  • MOD
    MOD
    There was a thread about a year ago (?) on the subject. I seem to recall people actually dug up some historical texts and posted them. Maybe someone is curious enough to search for that post..
  • tsarina
    tsarina
    correct me if I'm wrong but I think it referred to the penitentiary that was there. Buffs? Crow hill society will know.
  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    I mean, I am a member of the Crow HIll Community Association -- I just found it interesting that it was being referred to as a neighborhood -- usually it's just Crown Heights and the CHCA is just the name of the association on its own.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well?

    http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    Backinbrooklyn wrote: Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well?

    http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
    I like it. It seems that Crow Hill is certainly past Bedford on this part of Crown Heights -- and so Malboneville is much more accurate. I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed.
  • snowboardqueen
    snowboardqueen
    xlizellx wrote: [ I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed.
    Ah.., but the true Question is Why?

    Why are neighborhood boundaries constantly changing and moving and being renamed?

    Who controls or what are the controlling factors of this change? And most importantly, who benefits the most from this change of neighborhood boundaries?
  • mha
    mha
    Whitefolks control; capitalism is the controlling factor of this change; whitefolks benefit.
  • drkman
    drkman
    MHA wrote: Yep, that's my understanding. Any insight on whether or not that name is as result of the 'crows' which lived here, or some other reason?
    I have no clue but reading the article that was posted it appears it could have been several reasons but most likely it was the crows.
  • drkman
    drkman
    Backinbrooklyn wrote: Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well?

    http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
    Malboneville appears to be a vanity name for an area where someone brought property. Since during that time, Brooklyn was separated into different villages which may have had their own rules and municipal structure, I think that name is just something for the history books and should not be utilized as an example of changing boundaries within the borough of Brooklyn.

    I know that there have been numerous debates about the ending of Crown Heights and beginning of Prospect Heights but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights. Same thing goes for Bed-Stuy | Clinton Hill. Clinton Hill is more desirable so the boundaries tend to fluctuate depending on the apartment advertisement. Even though it is not Brooklyn, I found it funny when a friend of mine mentioned that a teacher she was working with stated they lived in SpaHa. I guess someone figured if you have SoHo and NoHo you might as well have SpaHa since for those that don't know, the name would not have the same connotations as someone saying they live in Spanish Harlem.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    We recently discussed the origin of the Crow Hill name here:
    http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

    Despite lots of googling, and even finding a book that attempted to address the question, it seemed to end up as a tie. Very disappointing for those us who like clear outcomes. Whynot's summary for those too lazy to click:

    * Some evidence points to the name being derived from a derisive term for blacks, "crows".

    * Some evidence points to the name being derived from large black birds that lived on a hill, "crows"

    * Some evidence points to the name being derived from old prison on the site, and points out that the modern term "jail birds" = "people in prison" and the birds in jail were often "crows".
  • capt. planet
    capt. planet
    Lost in the fog of history? So be it, and just as well. Let Crow Hill's name rest in obscurity.
    Regarding SBQ's observation that neighborhood name change is driven soley by evil real estate interests. let me point out that evil realtors are just the front men and women for homeowners, who pray almost daily that their property values have increased. Another contributing factor are those renters who engage in neighborhood puffery for reasons of vanity, as in "I live in Prospect Heights" when she/he in fact lives on Rogers and Park Place. When challenged, the tenant says "hey, that's what the real estate said".
    Like the deriviation of the name Crow Hill, n'hood name change has many causes and many culprits.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Capt-
    "Solely driven by evil real estate interests"? She said nothing of the sort:
    SnowboardQueen wrote: [quote=xlizellx][ I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed.
    Ah.., but the true Question is Why?

    Why are neighborhood boundaries constantly changing and moving and being renamed?

    Who controls or what are the controlling factors of this change? And most importantly, who benefits the most from this change of neighborhood boundaries?

    This is an instance of Capt Planet answering the SnowboardQueen's questions with "evil real estate interests", then attributing his answer to the person who asked the question.

    This is very strange. Why would Capt do this to himself and his profession?

    I find it odd that Capt. seems to automatically assume that people will give real estate agents all of the blame/credit for a neighborhood's expansion or name change.

    He's right, Real Estate agents are simply playing a forward role in the functioning of the capitalist market.

    As a result, the whole idea of a real estate professional engaging in deceptive or dishonest practices (like leading a potential buyer to believe that a listing in is one neighborhood when it is really in another) is complete baloney.

    Real estate agents are, and should be, completely free to do whatever they, and the customer believes will get the lease (or contract) signed.

    P.S. Capt, here's a lead on a listing: A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.html
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    whynot_31 wrote: A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.html
    I love how he lies and says "2 blocks to 2/3/4/5 trains." Uh dude, you can only get the 3 train at Nostrand (and the 4 during late nights or when the 3 isn't running).
  • mougar
    mougar
    The worst Prospect Heights mislabeling I've seen is this one: http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1940319764.html

    The apartment is on St Johns between Kingston and Albany Ave
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Carnivore wrote: [quote=whynot_31]A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.html
    I love how he lies and says "2 blocks to 2/3/4/5 trains." Uh dude, you can only get the 3 train at Nostrand (and the 4 during late nights or when the 3 isn't running).

    As per Capt, I now believe that Real Estate professionals do not lie.
    ...they are the front men and women, and bear no responsiblity for correcting either the landlord or the renter. They are simply one of many factors that influence a neighborhood's changing boundaries and name.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Mougar wrote: The worst Prospect Heights mislabeling I've seen is this one: http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1940319764.html

    The apartment is on St Johns between Kingston and Albany Ave
    Again, what is this about "worst"?

    The neighborhood boundaries are flexible. Stop being judgemental.

    ....stop making these people out to be "evil".
  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    When I first was moving to Brooklyn, I wanted either north Park Slope or Prospect Heights. I talked to some Real Estate agents and they said to try just over the Washington border because it was in my budget. They clearly said that the Prospect Heights border was Washington but that LAND LORDS were listing out to Bedford as in Prospect Heights.

    I just find the fact that some people say that because the area between Nostrand and Washington has changed recently and maybe there should be a new name to differentiate it is racist or blasphemy, etc.

    My wondering is do people who live in the East Village (Which used to just be part of the Lower East Side but in the 60s was called it's own neighborhood because the people living there and the vibe changed and so different from the rest of the LES) get up in arms that within that larger neighborhood there is also The Bowery and Alphabet City within the East Village. If someone lived at Avenue B and 9th street, they could say either East Village or Alphabet City.

    Why can't Washington be the border of Crown Heights and Prospect Heights AND a certain part within Crown Heights also be something else.

    I keep hearing people say "people want a new name so that their friends visit, they're not lumped with the crime from the eastern border of Crown Heights, etc." and in no way is THAT why I sometimes think there should be another name. I tell people I live in Crown Heights and either they don't care because if I live there it can't be as dangerous as the papers sometimes make it sound or they say something and I can refute what they say with additional anecdotes
    about my actual neighborhood.

    I would like a smaller neighborhood name WITHIN crown heights because I think that it helps build an actual more tight-knit community. Crown Heights is HUGE. By having the Crow Hill Community Association things like the mural project, the garden, etc. etc. have come about. If we had smaller communities created within the larger Crown Heights I think that our community as a whole would feel closer and be more productive (For lack of a better word).
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    I completely agree.

    I just think it is important to continue to point out that the Crow Hill is a subset of the neighborhood of Crown Heights. Crown Heights is a perfectly good name.

    I like Crown Heights, and think that it should always be referenced by the people living there. As you mention, the more that people living in Crown Heights point out to outsiders that THEY live in Crown Heights, the more accurate it's reputation will become.

    Crown Heights is quite large and has several small neighborhoods, and the more people learn about them, the more that they will realize it is not easily stereotyped as "gentrified", "crime ridden", "orthodox" or what have you.....

    "I live in the Crow Hill section of Crown Heights"

    "I live in the Brower Park section of Crown Heights"
  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    whynot_31 wrote:

    "I live in the Crow Hill section of Crown Heights"

    "I live in the Brower Park section of Crown Heights"
    exactly.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Note,
    "I live in the Prospect Heights section of Crown Heights" was not mentioned as being an option.

    Prospect Heights is a subset of th boro of Brooklyn.
    Crown Heights is a subset of the boro of Brooklyn

    Crow Hill is a mico sets, Crown Heights a sub set, etc.

    Skipping sets is not permitted.
  • mougar
    mougar
    My main complaint is that it makes it a pain in the ass to search craigslist for apartments that are in a particular area.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Mougar wrote: My main complaint is that it makes it a pain in the ass to search craigslist for apartments that are in a particular area.
    Well, that stems from real estate agents and property owners trying to confuse people.

    ....not there is anything wrong with that.
  • capt. planet
    capt. planet
    [quote="Backinbrooklyn"]but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights. quote]
    Sorry, here's the quote I had meant to reference. My apologies to SBQ
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    drkman wrote: [quote=Backinbrooklyn]but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights.
    Sorry, here's the quote I had meant to reference. My apologies to SBQ
    Landlords would be included in "real estate interests," no?
    As far as residents who for some reason find it inflates their sense of self-worth to claim to live in a neighborhood other than the one they live in, I'm not sure how to characterize that one, but I think there are more people who are genuinely confused by the false statements made in real estate ads (whether prompted by brokers or landlords) than there are in this hypothetical category.
  • capt. planet
    capt. planet
    I clearly recall years ago an acquaintance telling me she had just rented an apartment in Park Slope. When I inquired where she had rented, she replied "on Windsor Place". In case you didn't know, there's an entire n'hood south of Park Slope called "Windsor Terrace". It's been there a long time and it's named Windsor Terrace because of Windsor Place. Why she said Park Slope is unclear but the relationship of Park Slope to Windsor Terrace is similar to that of Prospect Heights to Crown Heights.
  • mha
    mha
    SpaHa -- instead of Spanish Harlem
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