If I were Bruce Ratner....
Comments
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quig wrote:
Great point, and it wouldn't be that easy a fight. But FCRC's ability to build with the cooperation of the government would be done, over, finished. They've made the public some promises, and it's our responsibility to hold them to it. So let's do it.
The MOU to me is a sham, all smoke and mirrors. Let's say hypothetically, this project gets rubber stamped, construction begins and for some unforeseen reason FCRC goes back on it's word and builds all of the affordable housing in the middle of Bushwick. The only recourse ACORN has is to sue FCRC. Do you think that’s a fair fight?
Of course, it would be interesting to see what Governor Spitzer would have to say if they went back on their promise, but that's a whole 'nother thread...
-je -
Jamie wrote: Hi! Can't believe I've been hanging out here all day - this site has really sucked me in (your motives, and actions, really are totally nefarious!!!!). I guess I should register, but that would only make my intrusions into your neighborhood official....
Jamie, what's your neighborhood?
Sorry to go off-topic, but I'm trying to get a sense for who reads this board and whether it makes sense to add boards for other neighborhoods. We opened up a board for Crown Heights this week, and I just got an e-mail today from someone requesting a Boerum Hill board. -
Jamie is my college drinking buddy who lives in Manhattan.
We've been trying to get him to move to Brooklyn, but thus far without success. You can tell he's a cool Manhattan person, though, because he'll come out and have drinks with us at Half on a weeknight. -
If I'm not mistaken the MOU is with ACORN & BUILD oops..ahem.... I mean the community. Not with NYC. It's a private contract between two parties.
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There are lot of people who are claiming to be in support of certain types of development, and I hope this is true. I hope you are all the exception to the general trend of opposing everyone who wants to do so much as plant a tree. I think neighborhood advocates are suffering from crying wolf too much. By protesting every possible idea that's ever brought up, you just alienate city officials and make them think that nothing will ever please you.
The criticisms of the Ratner plan that go, "This has some good elements but the following areas need improvement," are great and constructive, and I think officials would be willing to listen to them. But most of the tone has been more like, "Ratner is EVIL!!!!! This is a capitalist conspiracy!!! This will DESTROY our neighborhood!!!"
Note DDDB's choice of words. They say the arena is just a front for Ratner's true agenda--not to build profitable housing--but rather for a LAND GRAB. This makes it seem like Ratner's true motive is not profit, but rather to satisfy some maniacal lust to seize other people's property for the sake of pure sadism. This kind of vitriole and hype just alienates officials and leads to less community involvement, not more. -
I will say about Ratner that I feel about him sort of the way that I feel about George Bush: even when he says something that sounds good, I can't help but believe it will turn out badly because I trust him so little; while realizing that he is not ultimately responsible for everything, he is in charge of a lot of bad stuff.
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quig wrote: If I'm not mistaken the MOU is with ACORN & BUILD oops..ahem.... I mean the community. Not with NYC. It's a private contract between two parties.
Perhaps it isn't NYC, but if it's the community, it's still a form of the public trust. Simply put, FCRC has made some public promises to the public, and the public can hold the firm accountable.
Glad to see I'm nothing more than a drinking buddy around these parts, but I'll take it as a compliment anyway.......
-je -
EmilyM wrote: I will say about Ratner that I feel about him sort of the way that I feel about George Bush: even when he says something that sounds good, I can't help but believe it will turn out badly because I trust him so little; while realizing that he is not ultimately responsible for everything, he is in charge of a lot of bad stuff.
has bush ever said anything good?
just yesterday he flipped the bird to the press.
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bush-flips-press.mov -
Here is what I would do. I would build a pedestrian mall, with the floor levels being retail space and hopefully get a lot of small businesses to set up shop. The buildings could be as much as high as 6-10 stories. Maybe a movie theatre. Some music venues. Gardens. Perhaps a community center. A nice place that people will actually want to go to while still generating revenue and letting Prospect Heights and Fort Greene remain nice cozy neighborhoods.
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Isa wrote: Here is what I would do. I would build a pedestrian mall, with the floor levels being retail space and hopefully get a lot of small businesses to set up shop. The buildings could be as much as high as 6-10 stories. Maybe a movie theatre. Some music venues. Gardens. Perhaps a community center. A nice place that people will actually want to go to while still generating revenue and letting Prospect Heights and Fort Greene remain nice cozy neighborhoods.
Great idea - but it gets back at the fundamental question of the transportation center. A retail network that would be a fair utilization of the resources of Atlantic Avenue subway and LIRR would have to be at least on the scale of a SoHo / Nolita. And you think traffic would be a mess with an arena...
If there's a tabula rasa for development, and you already have the transportation network, then it would be unfair to the entire city not to use it. In an era where mass transit isn't used nearly enough, it's tough to justify the use of one of the largest hubs in the region for anything that is local in scale.
-je -
escap wrote: Captain M, I agree with you that Eminent Domain is a highly controversial issue that should only be used as a last possible resort and that the victims should be generously compensated, taking into account not just market value but the severe imposition on their lives. I'd love to see Ratner scrap the Eminent Domain aspect of the plan. I also agree with you that there are better hypothetical uses for the land than an arena. A tech center sounds great (incidentally lots of people protested Metrotech too, let's not forget); the only problem is that there's no such offer on the table. There are three options: FCR, Extell, or Status Quo.
I disagree that just becasue there is some offer on the table we should just take it. Thats just stupid, did you marry the first person you dated. You are in such a rush to develop but fail to see the repercussions that will last at least 60 years, waiting 5 years for the right development, with no eminent domain, when the yards space is worth even more, when there are more people living in brooklyn, a developer not looking for taxpayers to finance the project, that is when the right opportunity will present itself.
If you actually think if the Ratner deal doesnt go through nobody will touch that land, then thats idiotic too. -
If you actually think if the Ratner deal doesnt go through nobody will touch that land, then thats idiotic too.
Whoa, strong and harsh words, given that I have history on my side. It has been 50 years and nobody has touched that land. You do a lot of name calling but give me no reason to believe anything has changed. You think in 5 years the perfect plan will come along?
Maybe you're right that I shouldn't be desperate to jump on the first proposal that comes along, but all I ever hear about is why we shouldn't do this or that. Schumer was right when he described a "culture of inertia" that exists in this city. It's easy to pick apart every proposal, but sometimes you have to just say a flawed plan is better than no plan, and take what is available. Lots of criticized ideas turn out great once we give them a chance.
I'm sorry, but they were really protesting the farmer's market over here in Fort Greene--too much traffic. That was the straw that broke the camel's back; now I'm willing to take whatever I can get. -
Subject: tech center?
there's already a tech center on vanderbilt/atlantic:
http://www.470vanderbilt.com/ -
escap wrote:
If you actually think if the Ratner deal doesnt go through nobody will touch that land, then thats idiotic too.
Whoa, strong and harsh words, given that I have history on my side. It has been 50 years and nobody has touched that land. You do a lot of name calling but give me no reason to believe anything has changed. You think in 5 years the perfect plan will come along?
Maybe you're right that I shouldn't be desperate to jump on the first proposal that comes along, but all I ever hear about is why we shouldn't do this or that. Schumer was right when he described a "culture of inertia" that exists in this city. It's easy to pick apart every proposal, but sometimes you have to just say a flawed plan is better than no plan, and take what is available. Lots of criticized ideas turn out great once we give them a chance.
I'm sorry, but they were really protesting the farmer's market over here in Fort Greene--too much traffic. That was the straw that broke the camel's back; now I'm willing to take whatever I can get.
Extell? -
Anonymous wrote: [quote=EmilyM]I will say about Ratner that I feel about him sort of the way that I feel about George Bush: even when he says something that sounds good, I can't help but believe it will turn out badly because I trust him so little; while realizing that he is not ultimately responsible for everything, he is in charge of a lot of bad stuff.
has bush ever said anything good?
just yesterday he flipped the bird to the press.
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bush-flips-press.mov
I'm not sure whether that was a rhetorical question or not, but I will elaborate. Sometimes Bush will say something like "Let's devote millions of dollars to AIDS prevention in Africa." Now, that's normally something I'd be very much in favor of, but because I trust Bush so little, I expect it to turn out in a way I disapprove of. And sure enough, the administration has forked over very little money, plus they're still trying to force the UN to embrace abstinence-only education and so forth. Similarly, if Ratner said something that sounded good, I would assume that it was either PR or something that would backfire on us. That's how little credibility he has with me. If someone with a record of not mooching off of taxpayers, building beautiful edifices, and not relying on eminent domain proposed a similar complex, I'd feel a lot better about it. -
EmilyM wrote: I'm not sure whether that was a rhetorical question or not, but I will elaborate. Sometimes Bush will say something like "Let's devote millions of dollars to AIDS prevention in Africa." Now, that's normally something I'd be very much in favor of, but because I trust Bush so little, I expect it to turn out in a way I disapprove of. And sure enough, the administration has forked over very little money, plus they're still trying to force the UN to embrace abstinence-only education and so forth. Similarly, if Ratner said something that sounded good, I would assume that it was either PR or something that would backfire on us. That's how little credibility he has with me. If someone with a record of not mooching off of taxpayers, building beautiful edifices, and not relying on eminent domain proposed a similar complex, I'd feel a lot better about it.
Good example. -
Yeah, it seems like nothing changes on this board. I was forbidden to enter this domain for a while (72 hour slap-on-the-wrist), but I did not miss much.
Boohoo, Ratner wins and you guys lose. So what. The sun will come up in the east and disappear in the west. Just like many of you who have migrated continentally or intercontinental, you can continue this trend. We've been a migratory predator for millions of years. Yeah, so what if you have become emotionally attached to your local hip bar. The idea is to take advantage of the location (Don't you know that location, location, location only matters for sure developments) and it's subterranean amenities. Someone posted before (Too tired to quote you directly) that the MTA is not used enough? I'm sorry, but 3 million train and bus riders are not enough? It's bad as it is that we take advantage of the fucker to the point where we're using the analogy of canned sardines ad nausea.
Sure there is an abuse of eminent domain, and there might have been a backroom deal between politicians and developers, but it happens (Some might seem shocked by this statement). As a matter of fact, it continues to transpire. The irony is that there are never any witnesses. Taxes are a way of life (The other famous saying Two things in life are definite...) and if this project uses the taxpayer’s money to help subsidize then I say go for it.
The city is in the red forever and we'll never resolve fiscal budgets or satisfy the economics of our public schools or pay our brave enforcement agents more money than they deserve. If you love this fuckin city do something about it. If you want to see a school achieve a certain goal in your neighborhood, donate some of your time and or money. If someone's dog craps in front of your home or while your walking and they do not pick it up, find a bag and pick it up. I have yet to see anyone (Other than myself) that will pick up a bottle that's in the middle of the street (A potential hazard) and toss it in the nearest container. You guys think that someone will mistake you for being poor and think you picked up the bottle to earn a 5-cent credit. Some just wear their ipods and sunglasses to notice anyway, but whine about quality of life issues all the time on this board. That's the difference between Ratner and the rest of you. You guys seem to have the attributes of politicians. You disagree about this development because your liberally correct neighbor does or because it's the politically correct side to take (Taking sides with social issues is the norm). Because they read a fuckin paper by some Columbia shmuck who is trained only in theory. A shmuck that has never built anything, but a resume for himself and not his community. So what if these issues are not relative to you. They are, though, to the developer. And the developer will pick up the fuckin litter off the street, figuratively or literally, because you whiners have done nothing.
This Atlantic Yards project did not develop overnight, but many decades ago. Multiple developers have hired professionals to draw up a plan, only to have recessional periods stop it from developing. And now that someone seizes a moment, you guys are at it with your eminent domain, architectural and traffic issues.
The real credit goes to Ratner. He has to read these insults and protests.
What will be next, maybe the Eastern Pkwy development?
There was a time when ignorance was thought to be blissful. This is a moment where it is warranted.
You want to resolve many of the issues on this board. Go and introduce yourself to your neighbors and say hello once in a while when you walk by someone (this might not register with the hip cool cats in the hood). That's what a fuckin neighborhood is. -
Anonymous wrote: Boo-hoo. Ratner wins and you lose.....Someone posted before (Too tired to quote you directly) that the MTA is not used enough? I'm sorry, but 3 million train and bus riders are not enough?
I think you'll find the the proponent of using the subways and LIRR more efficiently (me) is also one of the biggest defenders of Ratner on this thread. Indeed, the two go together like peanut butter and jelly. I think you'll also find that I'm not the only defender of Ratner on this thread. Have a go, it's worth a read. -
Jamie (again) wrote: [quote=Isa]Here is what I would do. I would build a pedestrian mall, with the floor levels being retail space and hopefully get a lot of small businesses to set up shop. The buildings could be as much as high as 6-10 stories. Maybe a movie theatre. Some music venues. Gardens. Perhaps a community center. A nice place that people will actually want to go to while still generating revenue and letting Prospect Heights and Fort Greene remain nice cozy neighborhoods.
Great idea - but it gets back at the fundamental question of the transportation center. A retail network that would be a fair utilization of the resources of Atlantic Avenue subway and LIRR would have to be at least on the scale of a SoHo / Nolita. And you think traffic would be a mess with an arena...
If there's a tabula rasa for development, and you already have the transportation network, then it would be unfair to the entire city not to use it. In an era where mass transit isn't used nearly enough, it's tough to justify the use of one of the largest hubs in the region for anything that is local in scale.
-je
So the only problem you have with my wonderful well researched plan is the traffic? I think a place that I described would be well utilized by people who do take public transportation. It's a better idea than an arena. Now give me 5 billion and let's start building. -
Quig, you keep mentioning the MOU, I think you mean CBA.
but you are absolutely correct, that is an agreement between 8 groups and FCR. if any of the promises, intentions and will-try-to's are broken the "community" and the City have no recourse. none. it is certainly a benefits agreement, it is most certainly NOT a community benefits agreement.
the 8 signers recourse is to sue, but on their own dime. or if Ratner breaks promises, guess what? he can pay BUILD 1.5 million and be done with it.
as for the person who wrote that DDDB is vitriolic in calling Ratner's plans a land grab, what would you call it? What Ratner wants IS the land, and takingn more than the 8.4 acres of the yards, especially when he already owns the site of the Atlantic Center and Terminal Malls, as well as the PC Richards/Modells, I don't know what else to call it but a land grab. He wants 21 acres to add to what he already has, and once he gets those 21 acres, with the help of eminent domain, gov't subsidies and a sweetheart price from the MTA he'll do with it as he wishes.
another thing about DDDB and all the groups (48 of them) that oppose the Ratner plan: w/o that opposition there would be no CBA (bogus and as phoney as it is), the MTA would have had only one bidder and thus no leverage to up Ratner's paltry $50 million offer ($15.15/sq. ft) and those who took buyouts would not have gotten the lucrative deals they got. Because of the way Ratner has tried to impose his plan as a fait accompli from day one, and that it avoids community/political review, the only way to shape the project has been and is, by vigourous opposition. and despite that Ratner has only enlarged his project from its unveiling, demonstrating his tone deafness.
overreaching, more than anything, could be his downfall. -
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous Guest, you do realize that by being here you're presenting yourself as a neighbor, and then being hostile. How is that promoting a friendly neighborhood? I value this board as a way of keeping up on what's going on around me, just as much as talking to my neighbors on the street. I don't appreciate you constantly trying to start fights here. It's just like someone on the sidewalk yelling at pedestrians, full of abuse and bile. It ruins the neighborhood. How about respecting your neighbors here just like you would on the street? Please?
You want to resolve many of the issues on this board. Go and introduce yourself to your neighbors and say hello once in a while when you walk by someone (this might not register with the hip cool cats in the hood). That's what a fuckin neighborhood is. -
Guest,
Yep, I meant CBA. Even though in my opinion it isn't. -
It absolutely isn't.
its a SBA, Sham Benefits Agreement -
I'm buying a round of the finest wine when FCR breaks ground.
Anyone up for it? You must be pro-FCR and honest about your position, otherwise pay for your own -
I forgot to mention, the wine is similar to the left coast version of two-buck-chuck and we'll toast out on Atlantic. So bring your brown paper bags
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tell me something Guest, would you be for this project if there wasn't even an attempt at sham CBA?
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Anonymous wrote: tell me something Guest, would you be for this project if there wasn't even an attempt at sham CBA?
Mod note: This ultra-confusing post is the perfect example of why it would be better if people registered, or at least used a name other than "Guest"! -
This project is not for CBA. If there is any benefit for the community, it's an upgrade of that fuckin' eyesore. Clearly it's for the developers benefit.
Just shut up about who benefits. The people that sold out early are the ones who benefit.
Those that have not will leave with a lump of coal -
emily, the confusion has more to do with my inability to login with a registered name.
as for guest that "fuckin' eyesore". fine. build on. as for the rest, please explain why 8.4 acres isn't enough for Bruce.
by your vitriol you betray your ignorance. -
if you're having trouble registering a username, e-mail me. OK?
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