West Indian Day parties

MHA wrote: Welcome to di Hotel de Franklin!
Such a lovely place, such a lovely place.....

Agreed Carnivore. The West African drumming and percussion, the West African dancing, the West African descendant people, the West African descendant Haitians speaking Kreyol -- a fusion of African languages and French; yeah. Lovely amalgam.

bobbybrummel wrote: [quote=MHA]I take issue with the notion that the country is predominantly Indian -- though anecodote is definitely not universal fact.

yeah whoever said that was wrong. 40% of the population is indo-trinidadian, 40% is black african, ~20% is mixed of some variety and about 1% is chinese.

I'd argue that most important way to identify them is how they choose to identify themselves.

....(gasp) many may identify themselves as being merely from the Island they are from. We have to be careful that we do not tell people how we think they should identify themselves.

For example, I'd find it uncomfortable to try and convince someone that they are West African, and that they were somehow out of touch with their heritage by identifying themselves as anything else.

.....I'm all about people being proud of who they are.

A lot of people seem to have felt comfortable coming out and celebrating their identities at this past weekend's West Indian Day Parade. ....clearly they must have some affinity for the area, its people and its culture.

That's why I was there too.

bobbybrummel wrote:
whynot, do you prefer WEST AFRICAN DAY on labor day or WEST EUROPEAN DAY on march 17?

Man, you have just caused yet another episode of

Storytime With Whynot

So, a few years ago some friends and I went to Manhattan's debaucherous St. Patrick's day parade on March 17th.

Most of us were from Suffolk County, and the five of us had some of the most stereotypical Irish names you could imagine (think of last names like O'Donnel, Flanagan, the McCreesh, O'Malley, and Mahoney).

So anyway, there we are...
Dressed in green.
Intoxicated off Jameson's
Singing O'Danny Boy
Out "sick" from work for the day

...and imagining ourselves to be 100% Irish.

But then, we saw them.

There, behind the banner of the "Bishop Gerry Adams Sacred Blessed Virgin Sacrifice of the Holy Spirit of the Sacrament High School" Dublin, Ireland we expected to see the typical marching band.

We were going to cheer on the number of under dressed, red haired 16 year old girls and guys ....until, there, prominantly visible for all to see ...were .....several black guys!

Which lead to one of the finest, most laughter filled, intoxicated conversations of all time.

Yes, those 16 year old black guys were more Irish than us.

They went to school in Ireland.
They were likely born in Ireland.
They probably spoke with a brogue.

....Here they were, literally trouncing us, despite breaking many of the rules we thought should be in place for the day!

To wit,

They were not drinking Jameson.
Nor were they singing O'Danny boy.
Nor did they have a pastey, freckled complexion
They were not defrauding their employers for the event.

....and there were we:
Completely confused posers who were only Irish in our minds.

...who needed to grow up.

....and then we did all again the following year

Bobby, to answer your questions, I describe the parades as follows:

"The aging Firefighters and Policemen event where I often drink Jameson"

AND

"The parade of sparkly women with feathers where I often eat jerk chicken"

....others are free to describe the events however they choose.

"St. Patrick's Day" and "West Indian Day" seem to mean many things to many people.

While some go to the events and see people who are being disloyal to their true heritage and a great opportunity to complain, others just see the events as an opportunity to have a good time.

Enjoy your seeing friends and people you have never met! Expand your world to encompass as many happy productive, positve people as you can! See everyone again next year!

whynot_31 wrote: Man, you have just caused yet another episode of

Storytime With Whynot

....

I was in Paris on St Patrick's day, almost 10 years ago, now, and there happened to be a jujutsu team from Ireland staying in the same hostel. My father's side is Irish and I have a very Irish last name and I participated in the merry-making for all I was worth. Funny thing that I took away from it, though, was the fact that none of the Irish participants suffered from the notion that I was even a wee bit Irish, despite my protestations, and it had nothing to do with the fact that I'm more brown than white. No, as far as they were concerned, I was irrefutably American. For me, that experience just highlighted the, uh, uniquely American view of cultural heritage.

WhyFi wrote: [quote=whynot_31]Man, you have just caused yet another episode of

Storytime With Whynot

....

I was in Paris on St Patrick's day, almost 10 years ago, now, and there happened to be a jujutsu team from Ireland staying in the same hostel. My father's side is Irish and I have a very Irish last name and I participated in the merry-making for all I was worth. Funny thing that I took away from it, though, was the fact that none of the Irish participants suffered from the notion that I was even a wee bit Irish, despite my protestations, and it had nothing to do with the fact that I'm more brown than white. No, as far as they were concerned, I was irrefutably American. For me, that experience just highlighted the, uh, uniquely American view of cultural heritage.

Yes, St. Patrick's Day (as played out on the streets of Manhattan and throughout the country) is a largely American phenomena. I've had friends who were in Ireland for March 17th, and they describe it as an almost complete non-event.

St. Patrick's day has evolved (or devolved, depending on your perspective).

While one can practice something as it "used to be", or "how they wish it was", persons who try to tell others how things "should be" often become frustrated that they are simply ignored.

....they end up as someone who tries to stop the unstoppable, and seemingly unaware that cultural traditions and identites naturally change occur over time.

Language evolves.
Cultural identity evolves.
Holiday's evolve.

Baring forced assimlation, there is nothing inherently "wrong" when this happens.

As posters point out, the West Indian day parade is a source of great pride to those who organize it and attend it. Because I like it's present form, I believe it would be a shame for it to become something it isn't, like the Thanksgiving Day Parade (i.e. festival of of big company capitalism), but I know that it too will likely change as time goes on.

It likely did not look like its present incarnation 20 years ago, and won't look like it does now 20 years from now.

It is good for people to take take pride in the Island that they are from. They should not have to identify themselves in a manner they do not want to, and it is a wonderful example of this country's capacity to allow people to pursue the identities they prefer.

.....such events are in stark contrast to things like the census, which continue to force people to either not identify themselves, or choose between a very limited selection of choices.

As I said above, people should be able to be whoever they want to be.

Personally, I'd like to especially encourage those who want to wear sparkly bikinis, and/or sell me jerk chicken.

WhyFi wrote: ^^^ you respond to me to quickly - stop it.

it's not personal. I do it to others too.

WhyFi wrote: [quote=whynot_31][quote=WhyFi]^^^ you respond to me to quickly - stop it.

it's not personal. I do it to others too.
Creep.

Name calling is against the rules. You can, however, describe me as "creepy".

I'm also under the impression that you can also use the exact definition of a term to avoid using the term itself. i.e. you could say I move slowly, and it disturbs you.

I believe we may be off topic. Mod's please split this thread at Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:15 pm EST thanks.

That damn Mexican monster is imagining me jerk my chicken, and it creeps me out.

Jameson and Roti might be a great meal...

It seems that at the moment some blackfolk (one in particular) are trying to tell both whitefolk and blackfolk what they should call a parade and the over 1 million people who participated.

Man, the last thing folks need is someone who tells them how they think about and identify themselves, especially when they just want to have a fun time on Labor Day.

Nope. I continue to believe that parade participants should be able to define themselves, and the event however they choose.

....but, I guess MHA is going to keep trying to convince us otherwise.

Trust him?
No, I'll continue to sit here and wonder what the basis of his authority is, and why he feels he has the ability to impose his views on others about an issue that many believe is personal, and solely theirs to decide and declare.

It seems to me that the participants are well aware of their history, yet have decided to embrace a culture that they have created and are very proud of.

Should MHA or a group of people ever be successful at getting the organizers and participants to change the name of the West Indian Day Parade, I'll be glad to change what I call it.

Until then, I'm going to look forward to watching people celebrate their heritage and cultural identity ....while eating jerk chicken and drinking diet coke.

But, I guess I've already mentioned how I like jerk chicken.

"It's like THAT-- and that's just the way IT is; Hoooahhh!"

I NEVER said that the name of the event should be changed. What I did say was that these were west African descendant people -- for the most part -- celebrating in this parade, celebrating their west African culture as it presently manifests itself in the islands that comprise the Caribbean, located in the Caribbean Sea; called the Caribbean Sea because of the early African and Melanesian people who emigrated their prior to the coming of the European; these people called themselves Caribs. It was then with the coming of the European who called the area 'West Indies' because they believe the area was supposedly 'West India' or so they PURPORTEDLY thought. So, the name of the area -- the name given to the region by Europeans (i,e, whitefolks) was admittedly wrong. My post about it was not questioning the name of the event. It can be called anything anyone wants to call it. My post was to claim that the consituents of the parade -- i.e., the BLACKFOLKS participating in it? -- they are west African descendant people, eating west African food -- for the most part, listening to west African derived music, and as such this parade was, for the record, a West African Parade.

You might want to overlook the African descendant people and say, 'But what of it's South Asian influences? But what of the European flair for pageantry? It would be nothing without that.' and if that's what gets you off, then fine, go for it, but what I saw was a sea of smiling Black faces celebrating what they have in COMMON, and that was their west African heritage; i.e. west African descendant people walking, dancing, singing, in a parade; a west African parade.

MHA wrote: I NEVER said that the name of the event should be changed. What I did say was that these were west African descendant people -- for the most part -- celebrating in this parade, celebrating their west African culture as it presently manifests itself in the islands that comprise the Caribbean, located in the Caribbean Sea; called the Caribbean Sea because of the early African and Melanesian people who emigrated their prior to the coming of the European; these people called themselves Caribs. It was then with the coming of the European who called the area 'West Indies' because they believe the area was supposedly 'West India' or so they PURPORTEDLY thought. So, the name of the area -- the name given to the region by Europeans (i,e, whitefolks) was admittedly wrong. My post about it was not questioning the name of the event. It can be called anything anyone wants to call it. My post was to claim that the consituents of the parade -- i.e., the BLACKFOLKS participating in it? -- they are west African descendant people, eating west African food -- for the most part, listening to west African derived music, and as such this parade was, for the record, a West African Parade.

You might want to overlook the African descendant people and say, 'But what of it's South Asian influences? But what of the European flair for pageantry? It would be nothing without that.' and if that's what gets you off, then fine, go for it, but what I saw was a sea of smiling Black faces celebrating what they have in COMMON, and that was their west African heritage; i.e. west African descendant people walking, dancing, singing, in a parade; a west African parade.

I don't disagree with any of that (except perhaps the part about the food, which is at least as much influenced by South Asian cuisine as by African cuisine). The fact that the vast majority of participants are of West African descent and that the name "West Indies" derives from an error by European explorers is self-evident and beyond dispute.

I think your statement above sounds pretty different from what you initially said,

MHA wrote: For the record, this is a West African Day parade.

which sounded more like an attempt to "rebrand" a parade which has been well and proudly known as the West Indian parade for decades in this borough.

Perhaps if you had said "this parade is actually a celebration of West African culture" rather than using what sounds like an alternate name (what with the capitalized "West African Day" and all) you would have found no dispute.

potayto -- pothahto.....

For the record this was a West African parade on Labor Day.

Dude, seriously, stop sublimating your anger about OTHER things in other threads, aight?

Just chill man, seriously. Jeez.... Just because you got called out for stalking, don't now use this moment to try to sound out what you ostensibly see as a breach in MHA argument. You be trippin' dude, Seriously. I am not gonna engage you man. You knowin' who I be, where I live, I am not gonna engage you man. Whatever you say man, seriously. I read 'Catcher and the Rye' too, Holden; it's okay. I'm on your side, alright? Just chill....

I am not telling others how to identify themselves. I am telling others how many -- including me -- identify OURSELVES. We see ourselves as African-descendant people, immigrants from the Caribbean to the U.S., celebrating OUR culture.. YOU wouldn't dare tell an Hasidic Jew -- the purported descendant of people who fled Pharaoh -- that he wasn't who he claims to be, yet you have the balls to say that I cannot do the same. You don't even see how arrogant you are. But alas, you never have, have you whynot_31, cyberstalker par excellence?

This is obvioulsy how I see the situation, and that is why I bring it to this medium. Implicit in everything EVERYONE says here is this: "This is how I see it." My seeing it this way doesn't invalidate the point that I am attempting to make. It only ATTEMPTS to do so by pointing out that this is -- indeed -- MHA opinion. And the reason I raise the argument that the West Indian Day parade is indeed a West African day parade (note the lower case 'd' and 'p' is because I want y'all to examine the elements; I want y'all to THINK). The predominance of the elements speak to the veracity of my point(s), yet despite them there is still an inclination not to even appreciate (by most) why I see it the way I do.

From post 1 to post 697 my attempt has been to speak truth to power and to confront the way y'all see things. Because I know that in other contexts, you guys are going to recall what I've said, and probably raise it in discourse with others. And also I raise it because you whitefolks have more power than I do, and if I can impel you to think then my objectives can be met; this is fodder for a prospective thread I am working on (hint: Tree Branch Breaker thread).

Whynot's crazy rant here is no different than when I said in the spitter's thread that 'the reason Blackfolks spit is because...' The first thing you whitefolks wanted to do is to individuate everything a brotha said: 'That's YOUR opinion MHA! You can't speak for all the INDIVIDUALS out there.' Nor am I attempting to do so. So, as a Black man, are you telling me that I -- steeped in Black culture -- couldn't tell YOU why the brothas be spittin'? Of course I can! "No MHA you can't" There is absolutely nothing you can say that could POSSIBLY be correct in that circumstance! Spitting is an INDIVIDUAL act! Only the spitter knows why he spits!" WHO are you, KANT???

And when I be SPITTIN' knowledge about my ancestors -- brought to the New World by Europeans, landed in the varying countries in the Caribbean, where they worked, danced, sang, and fcuked to produce the progenitors who did the same thing, ultimately to have produced MHA, who can then go to the parade with other west African descendant people and amidst that crazy, funky, noisy, rhythmic nexus, I can see other folks who look like me, walk like me, talk like me, sing like me, worship the same African deities like me -- you have the gall to tell me that these are NOT mha brothers and sisters, that I don't have the authority to say to YOU, for the record this is a West African parade??! Dude, wake up man... Or sleep blissfully in the world that you live in.

For the record, it was a West African Day parade.

I guess you've taken a poll, and you have discerned this Whynot. Cool, then I stand corrected. These are all West Indians at the West Indian day parade. If that makes sense to you, then you believe it.

The West Indians are definitely not predominantly Indian, and the Indians who made their way to the Caribbean are mostly the descendants of indentured servants who themselves were at the bottom of the social totem pole in India -- primarily the Dravidian 'untouchable' caste; the darker ones whose ancestors can be easily traced back to Africa linguistically, and through the dieties that they worship, by the way...

So here are Black people, the descendants of Africans, being labelled West Indians -- admittedly in error. And here is Whynot being able to see that these people are misnaming themselves, and here he is ignoring the elements: the people, the food, the languages, the gods -- and sticking fast to the misonmer West Indian; Point well taken.

And this isn't surprising. Black people aren't supposed to name ourselves. When we wanted the letter 'n' to be capitalized for the word 'negro' many said the very same thing many here have said. And finally,it just happened with little fanfare. And when people said the same thing about the word 'b' in Black, the same thing happened; and when we said 'African-American', many balked at that too. I expect the balking.

Balk away Whynot_31. "Balk balk-balk-balk-balk; Balk!"

For the record, it was a parade of west Africans....