. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque

Your example still isn't a rational explanation and, in fact, reminds me of the fear that some people have of flying, period - OMG, a plane fell out of the sky the other week, and I'm in a plane, now.... Just replace malicious intent with mechanical failure.

The only explanations I've heard for not building the community center there are

1. It's insensitive to people that connect all Muslims with 9/11
2. All Muslims are connected to 9/11

The second point isn't even worth discussing, but I imagine some people genuinely believe the first rationale and not the second. I don't agree with either, but not wanting to piss people off is at least more understandable.

It's like when Comedy Central censored the depiction of Mohammad on South Park. The portrayal of Mohammad wasn't at all derogatory, but Comedy Central was still afraid that merely showing Mohammad would offend some radical Muslims. I disagreed with their decision, but I understand it's not because they're radical Muslims. They just don't want to piss off radical Muslims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/opinion/09collins.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

Why should your Muslim friends have to go around being critical of fundamentalist Islam?

....they may assume that you are broad minded enough to not expect such an explanation.

They may not even regard the terrorist as being Muslim, effectively disowning them.

It's kinda like requiring a Democrat to go around distancing themselves from Communism.

....or requiring a Republican to go around constantly distancing themselves from fascism.

I would take offense if you were to attempt to have a conversation with me about Communism if you thought I was a Democrat.

I would take this same offense if you thought I was a republican and expected me to distance myself from Fascism.

If I was a black person, I would take offense if you assumed I knew anything about basketball.

Just because someone is crazy, and looks like me, I do not have to distance myself from them. I do not believe that is a weakness of mine. I believe the expectation that I should have to so is a weakness of the person doing the expecting.

They do not have to live up to your expectations. They are fine the way they are.

MHA wrote: And I am not saying that moderate Muslims have to 'go around' being critical of fundamentalist Isalm, but surely, they have an opinion. Surely they can engage in discourse with other Muslims about this. They ought not be compelled to talk to me about it, but, check the press: They rarely have this conversation. There is only confrontation and infighting. Talking is the last thing on the agenda. Moderate muslims talk to non-Muslims about olive branches and peace. Well, they need to talk to fundamentalist Muslims about olive branches and peace. They need to talk to Imams who condone women walking around in tents. They are all mum about this, rationalizing that this is just an alternate way of seeing the faith. I don't buy that. That's ignoring the problem, as does the Republicans ignore the Tea Party crowd and the Palin crazies, as does the Democrats ignore the commie zealots in their own camp. But here's the thing. The Tea Party and the commies aren't blowing anything up; the fundamentalist Muslims are.

But MHA, that is EXACTLY what the people behind this cultural center have done (in black and white in the link I posted above)! And yet these moderate Muslims, who you imply are a rarity are somehow deemed insensitive because you don't feel enough OTHER Muslims speak out against fundamentalist Islam? If what you say is true, these Muslims should be supported as an example to other moderate Muslims, and yet idiot teabaggers are showing the Muslims of the world the intolerant face that Americans show to moderate Muslims.

MHA wrote: Dude, I said earlier, I can't access that link.....

If you don't mind, could you copy and past the article, I would appreciate it.

I was talking about the first article (also hyperlinked in the text "black and white" above), which you said you read. But I also fixed the link in the second post if you want to check that again. The initial link had been the mobile version of the article, posted from my phone.

vidro3 wrote: http://www.midweek.com/content/columns/justthoughts_article/the_shinto_shrine_near_pearl_harbor/

I wonder what half-term Governor Sarah Palin would have said.

Oh wait, that would require coherence in her rhetoric.

whynot_31 wrote: It seems there was once a small mosque at Ground Zero, then some planes destroyed it along with everything else.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?src=mv&ref=nyregion

The towers were not destroyed; they imploded on themselves due to excess irony.

As I walk through
this wicked world
searching for light
in the darkness of insanity
I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain, anguish and misery
And each time I feel like this inside
there's one thing I want to know
What's so funny about peace love and understanding...

As I walk on
Through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong
And who are the trusted
And where is the harmony
Sweet harmony
Cause each time I feel it slipping away
It just makes me want to cry
What's so funny about peace love and understanding

It's a Elvis Costello song. lnelson forgot the cite.

http://www.elviscostello.info/lyrics/af.html#peace_love_and_understanding

Hmm, not too sure about that. Vodou is pretty national in Haiti, though the government has stated in the past that they are a Catholic country. When I used the word national here, I meant to say that it's my understanding that Shintoism -- a large element of that is ancestor 'worship' -- WAS quite common. The way it was phrased it was as if the author was saying the Japanese government was ordering that Shintoism was the only 'legal' religion. That's not my understanding. I'm not splitting hairs. I am just stating it how I've been taught to understand it. Now, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't say that it's interchangeable. One is government ordained (government religion), and the other is not ( national religion).

If it weren't for the efforts of organizations like the ACLU, many regions of the US would be effectively theocracies.

....On the otherhand, the various sects of Christianity might kill themselves in their quest to govern.

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/06/19/theocracies-are-doomed-thank-god.html

???

I read an article in a recent issue of the 'Downtown Express' a newspaper specific to the Tribeca, South of Canal (SoCa? ) area. In it the journalist indicates -- as WCW stated -- that the builders of the Islamic center received approval fom the community board, and, the first floor was already being used as a Masjid. It's tragic that the discourse around this issue has become so heated, and truly, it doesn't seem as if both sides are engaging in the conflict to find a solution, but 'to win'. If this was a love affair gone sour then I would recommend that both parties seek greener pastures, as it is obvious that there will forever be bad feelings here. Unfortunately, that can't be done.

The author of 'No God But God' appeared on Meet the Press yesterday (Reza Aslan), and his view about the Islamic center was much like BoyGabriel's and Carnivore's, where he stated that he was aware that there were those who felt a sense of affront at the idea of the mosque being so close to the WTC site, and I am paraphrasing here, '...but thankfully, we don't live in a country where sentiment determines what others can do...' I felt that this comment wasn't fully appreciative of the 'sentiment' of others quite frankly... He then went on to say that If you associate the actions of some Muslims with the actions of the billion-plus Muslims of the world, "then, I'm sorry, you're a bigot!"

And I agree with him. I agree with BoyGabriel and Carnivore regarding their own sense of what constitutes bigotry here. But I think that when people say, 'It's poor taste for this mosque to be there,' the other side narrowly perceives bigotry, and, using the 1st Amendment argument say, 'Well thank Allah for the 1st Amendment.' And it doesn't help that there ARE actual bigots in the mist.

Carnivore, that being said, I have to re-read the first link's Op-ed piece. I didn't take from the piece the sense that this space would be used by moderate Muslims to counter fundamentalist Islam. I took from it that this was a space where moderate Muslims would reach out to other moderates. This made me have the same sense of recoil I do when some dude gets on the train selling candy, but must preface by saying, "I'm not robbing, raping, or killing anybody, I don't belong to a basketball team, I'm just selling this candy to put money in my pocket." Implicit is veiled threat, to me. I don't like that.

I wrote earlier of my experience at the Pakistani Tea House. I went there recently late one night, and listened to some taxi drivers grumbling about how sinful a place the U.S. is, allowing women to be naked, allowing gambling. One guy said that the 'freedoms' of the West only allow man to become less of a man, and that the evils men do -- i.e. lust, rape children, naked women, etc., that the Prophet Muhammad ("PBUH") doesn't allow that. I wanted to engage him in conversation, but I decided not to. The 'PBUH' mentioned above was what the guys said, by the way. There were a number of vigorous and obeisant head nods as he spoke.

I hope that this center is built, and I hope it does become a place where moderate Islam can exist, render critique AND be critiqued; God knows there is need for that...

I hear people who have had their parent killed by terrorists are very pro-terrorist,
and are very insensitive to those who have lost lives to terrorism. (saracasm)

Elzanaty - whose parents died in an EgyptAir crash in 1999 that he believes was caused by terrorism - says he understands the pain of 9/11 families. "I am one of them. I lived this two years before they did," he said.

But the developer, a U.S. citizen, described himself simply. "I'm a regular guy. I'm Muslim. I'm an American," he said.

"I will never do anything to harm America."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/21/2010-09-21_mosque_will_be_built_developer_vows.html