West Indian Day parties
Comments
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Sheesh, outtta gas...
Whynot, you are obviously projecting your own sense of self. You can keep that mantle. In every instance where I make a point, you always hew close to the bone in attempt to make it personal; you ALWAYS do that, and it's annoying. You can never stick to the issue, but you ALWAYS have to find SOME way of making it personal. I just don't understand why you do that. Can't we stick to the issue? Must you always alter the course of conversation? And now, with the moderator's wind to your back, you have to make allegations about me deeming myself in the position to educate everyone? WTF? You have to make polls about whether or not you need engage me? How is this not harassment? Where are the moderators on this??! HOW IS THIS NOT TYPICAL IMPOLITE ONLINE BEHAVIOR?
Dude, what rankles me is that when I started the VESPA thread, and I spoke about my buddy feeling rankled about the lack of expressed gratitude, I could've sworn you made comment to the effect of, 'Well, you have to understand that she probably feels creeped out by being known by someone she does not know...' And here you are ALL up in my business, blaming ME for my carelessness, and advertising that you know who I am, and implying that I better watch out that others don't find out.' And no one here, none of your moderator friends did jack about it, and here you are with your wannabe sincere self. Do you realize how insipid you seem now dude? What's your issue man? Seriously? You have a problem with a Black dude being able to prove to you REPEATEDLY how wrong you are? How dumb you are? Is that it? Cuz you are truly getting on my nerves. You are the prime example of white privilege. You can do what you want -- and get away with it... Seriously. You have no sense of right or wrong; white privilege all the way. And when YOU are wrong, you have someone in power to back you up, to say, oh no, the other guy was wrong. I am truly disgusted with you. Truly.
And you moderators can allow this guy to have a POLL that is supposed to rank by popularity whether or not he should engage me. Why isn't ANYONE saying anything to this guy? You find this funny? You don't think this is harassment? Seriously? You think it's cool that he uses the Brooklynian in this manner? -
Yes!
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I don't think it's cool. I don't think the many attempts to discount MHA's authority on the subject matter of this thread and discredit him are cool either. Like with the appeals to individualism, or to common ancient ancestry, as if that dismisses any authority due MHA as a Black member of this online community, of Caribbean heritage, bringing a hell of a lot of provocative insight to these pages about the parade. I'm White and I think Black and White Americans are so segregated in terms of who we intellectualize with, so I appreciate the insight coming out of this aggressive online discussion. But the way MHA is discredited in this parade post isn't cool. Isn't successful either.
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I continue to believe that one's authority comes exclusively from being an individual.
I wish I had the ability to speak on behalf of others on sensitive issues.
I wish I had the ability to trust others to speak on behalf of me on sensitive issues.
....for example, most married people refrain from speaking on behalf of their spouses on topics of such intensity and sensitivity.
...while you saw me trying to discredit a black man, I saw me engaging in debate with someone who is trying to speak for more than himself.
MHAs views are as valid as anyone else's, and anyone with time to kill is able to agree (or disagree) with him.
This is exactly the "cool" potential of a neighborhood bulletin board.
Welcome Jetsy. I am out. -
MHA has no authority on the subject matter of this thread. He only has an opinion. Black or white, Caribbean heritage or Irish, all anyone has is an opinion.
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Jetsy wrote: I don't think it's cool. I don't think the many attempts to discount MHA's authority on the subject matter of this thread and discredit him are cool either. Like with the appeals to individualism, or to common ancient ancestry, as if that dismisses any authority due MHA as a Black member of this online community, of Caribbean heritage, bringing a hell of a lot of provocative insight to these pages about the parade. I'm White and I think Black and White Americans are so segregated in terms of who we intellectualize with, so I appreciate the insight coming out of this aggressive online discussion. But the way MHA is discredited in this parade post isn't cool. Isn't successful either.
MHA's authority on the subject is non existent simply because nobody has anointed him with the title of the universal black man representative. I think he makes a lot of interesting points, but ultimately if the people running the parade have given it a name, then obviously that is the name they wanted it to have, regardless of how MHA feels about it. -
And, to the extent that NO one has authority on how ANYone individual experiences reality, I agree with Booklaw, I agree with CTK and lastly, (*and leastly) I agree with Whynot. I've not claimed SUPREME authority on ANYTHING I opine on in the threads that I write on. I proclaim MY opinion, and MY reasons why I hold my opinion. It is MY opinion that a number of people disagree NOT because what I say is incomprehensible, but because I am the one stating it; that I, a BLACK man, says this is how WE think. Because Black people aren't supposed to have any unanimity in thought. This is how WE have historically been divided, and the chorus of our voices diminished.
Believe it or not, there is great history about the discourse over the naming of the parade, unfortunately not a great deal of it is easily accessible. History, unfortunately, is written by the victors. Not that the history of the debate validates my point. I agree with the point that if those who CONTROL the parade wanted a name change, they would have done that. Similarly, there isn't a great deal of accessible history about by Black baseball players about how Jackie Robinson destroyed the Negro Baseball league, but if you look at what happened, one can intimate that such protest exists.
What has been a constant burr underneath my saddle is that whenever I make argument about something, people like Whynot SKEW the argument by making CONSTANT ad hominem utterances. CONSTANT. His opining --
''Am I correct, when I assume you have decided that it is your mission to educate people on what the terms mean to you and that they should stop using them as a result?''
This is how HIS brain SKEWS what I say.... I made NO such assertion! Comments like the one he makes above has ALWAYS been made by status quo ideologues who do not want to engage the argument, to look at the FACETS of another's opinion; rather, he wants to characterise what is said as somehow malevolent, and ego driven. And he does this because HE HAS NO RATIONAL RESPONSE.
Of course this is my opinion. What else could it be?? And after I state MY opinion, I state WHY I hold that perspective. It's one thing to say, 'Well, what about the other influences MHA?' But it's another to say --
"So you you have decided that it is your mission to educate people on what the terms mean to you and that they should stop using them as a result?''
Whynot on countless other threads has made clear his bias, as well as his creepiness. He has made CLEAR his intention to reveal to the Brooklynian who I am beneath the avatar because he does not believe that I should have the right to opine here. He literally wishes to e-skin MHA. Despite his obvious intentions to do this, the moderators here are tolerant of his shenanigans. They allow him to have bizaare polls regarding me, likely because they too hold the same bias that he does. I have made repeated protest about it, and lo, his nonsense still exists. I view his ostensible discourse about MHAe as threatening. It is difficult to have discourse with someone who has threatened to reveal your identity. At this point, I view what he says -- all of it as it pertains to me -- as ploy. -
MHA, your assertiveness here indicates that your thoughts on the name of the parade were more than opinions...
MHA wrote: The point is that this parade name is a grand misnomer. The music, the food, the dances, and of course the people, are primarily all derived from West Africa -- the official site notwithstanding.
Again... I respect your perspective & opinions, and agree that there aer a lot of West African influences in the parade...
But you've gone from asserting that the parade's name was a misnomer to merely acknowledging the WA influence on the parade...
Again I don't agree w/whynot's personal crusade against you but that really has nothing to do with the contradiction/backpedaling you undertook in this thread... and this is in no way the first time.... -
Dude, it is not backpedalling. Would YOU feel better if I said, It is MY OPINION that ''..this parade name is a grand misnomer. The music, the food, the dances, and of course the people, are primarily all derived from West Africa -- the official site notwithstanding.'' ? Because it is MY opinion. I thought that was implicit.
I believe the name is a misnomer because the name West Indies is a colonial one, in the same sense that Rhodesia was a colonial name. In the same sense that Victoria Falls is a colonial name. No doubt these names DO exist. But my prevailing point has been REGARDLESS of what people want to call the parade, the elements of it bespeak ANOTHER truth; and that truth is that the people who participate in the West Indian parade are not INDIANS from the West. There were no Indians in that hemisphere when the Europeans got there!
UNLESS you want to argue that they are the descendents of the INDIGENOUS peoples of WEST Africa and India, and China and Europe, then yeah, it is a West 'Indigene'
parade!
I have never said that what I said was THE TRUTH. Ad infinitum I have stated on earlier threads, 'There is MORE than ONE truth'. I used to end COUNTLESS posts that way, remember? So, the irony here is to see people say, MHA you are not an authority; this is YOUR opinion! Of course it's my opinion! LOL -
MHA wrote:
One of the most annoying thing about white gentrifiers is their desire to change the environment around them, because they realize that THEY are the minority -- as Krowonhill so accurately points out. They feel uneasy in their minority whiteness. They feel how WE are made to feel for MOST of our lives. They don't like it so they try to alter what they see. They don't want Black people to remain themselves 'in the face of Cultural Hegemony'. They want Black people to make audacious claims about Irish, Scottish, Chinese, Indian and otherwise exotic derivations for who they are. Well my brother, I am not going to do that. I am a Black man, a proud brain-endowed brotha who has no qualms calling them on b.s... I make no audacious claims about what otherness runs through my blood, or my hair for that matter. I feel no need for that. I am not a West Indian. I am a descendant of Africans, brought to the Caribbean, now living in the belly of the blodclot beast.Quote CTK: I'm glad you made this post as this is exactly what I'm talking about. I think most of us respect YOUR CHOOSING to consciously dissociate from history of your ancestors' colonizers. But as you've done before, you can't apply your world view as fact- especially when it's wrong! Nobody disputes that Caribbeans have roots in West Africa and that many of their customs, traditions and cultural reference points have roots there as well. Where the difference lies is in how they choose to identify themselves. MHA, you identify them as West Africans. Fine. Others might not. But neither your nor mine nor any uninvolved party's opinion matters- ultimately it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to decide what to identify themselves as, and in this case the people of the parade identify themselves as WEST INDIAN.
There is much truth in this. This topic is Soooooooo off-topic even the OP is nowhere to be found
Anything beyond that is at best conjecture- not even your opinion can override that, which is something you've seemed to struggle with since you started posting here. I understand your POV here and think it does provide good historic background + insight into the parade, but I, and REALITY, don't agree with you. WHITE PEOPLE did not name the parade.
And beyond the borders of this board, what evidence do you have that white people are looking to 'colonize' Crown Heights? Again you seem to struggle with the simple idea that said white people move to Crown Heights because 1) they might LIKE the cultures/lifestyle present there, or more realistically 2) that's all they can afford to rent in NYC. No offense to CH, but do you really think people would make a conscious decision to move into a neighborhood that has high crime (compared to other more expensive areas) and an unfamiliar demographic?
Don't use your experiences at Brooklynian to validate your unsubstantiated views... like I've said time and time again, despite how much you need white people to be evil to justify some of your views, it's simply not true.
moving it to politics..... -
And awaaaaay we go. Same thing like the last time....
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booklaw wrote: MHA has no authority on the subject matter of this thread. He only has an opinion. Black or white, Caribbean heritage or Irish, all anyone has is an opinion.
Wow - this statement just boggles my mind. Of course, people have more than just an opinion. They have facts, history, and logic. If "all anyone has is an opinion," then our entire legal system would just be bunk. All so-called opinions are not relative. Just because someone says something, doesn't make it so.
In the case of this thread, MHA is referencing history to make his point. It's not an especially provocative point, given this well-documented history. It's a good point, an obvious one for someone who has repeatedly claimed pride in his African heritage. Still, an argument could be made against it, claiming more recent history than the 17th century.
I would hope that detractors to MHA's point would pay equal attention to facts, history, and logic as they argue against it. Instead I just see: "MHA has no authority." On what basis? Because he so often raises unpopular points? WTF, people? -
I did not argue with his facts or logic (nor do I necessarily accept them). I argued and argue with the suggestion that he has "authority".
I have not found his various posts especially persuasive.
He has kept minor details such as education private (as he is totally entitled to do). Consequently, we do not know whether he has a masters or doctorate in a relevant subject area, and, if so, what school might have issued such degree.
Hence, no "authority". -
MHA wrote: Would YOU feel better if I said, It is MY OPINION that ''..this parade name is a grand misnomer. The music, the food, the dances, and of course the people, are primarily all derived from West Africa -- the official site notwithstanding.'' ?
Yes. -
booklaw wrote: I did not argue with his facts or logic (nor do I necessarily accept them). I argued and argue with the suggestion that he has "authority".
i'm not convinced that authority only springs from academic study.
I have not found his various posts especially persuasive.
He has kept minor details such as education private (as he is totally entitled to do). Consequently, we do not know whether he has a masters or doctorate in a relevant subject area, and, if so, what school might have issued such degree.
Hence, no "authority".
that said, i'm also unconvinced that the people living in the islands have a culture unchanged since leaving africa, nor that the traditions represented in the parade have evolved only from african ones.
trini food, for instance. you cannot explain trini food without india. nor saltfish without the british. -
this is an idiotic discussion.
seriously. don't feed the troll.
for MHA's argument to hold water he would have to prove that West African culture is exactly the same as West Indian culture.
It's not.
Comparison fail.
If I were a mod this thread would be locked tighter than a white gentrifier's door on his first night in Crown Heights. -
vidro3 wrote:
Sha-BANG!
If I were a mod this thread would be locked tighter than a white gentrifier's door on his first night in Crown Heights.
pwned. =D> -
Wow, WOW! 'Authority'??! LOL
I have neither a PhD nor a Master's degree in Mathematics, but I do believe that 1+1 = 2! I hope that given the syllogism presented -- i.e., that ONE added to ONE equals TWO can be considered despite my lack of doing post doctorate work in the subject. Or better yet, Sometimes 1 + 1 does not = 2. I don't have any advanced study in philosophy, but I can assure you, that too is true.
Independent on whether or not one agrees with my argument, I REALLY think it's a slippery slope to ONLY give an argument credence if the point being made has to have academic accreditation to back it up. The fact that one would use as rebuttal the query, in essence ,'he lacks 'authority' to back up his argument,' is more than a tad troubling. I'm not talking about a cure for cancer here (Though I could give you a really great opinion about food supplements, but alas, I am not a doctor); I am giving an opinion about a group of people -- a group that I happen to be a member of, and have done a great deal of study about for over two decades. To have an argument dismissed because of the lack of credentials to back up a point is bizaare, quite frankly. I would think that folks can use their own MIND, and even use Google, to see why I make the point about West African vs. West Indian.
In addition, I've made no claim that there have not been other influences. Shucks, you go to any country in Africa and you will see influences. You go to England for that matter, and you will see influences. I often smile to myself when I see lions and tigers on British coat of arms. Ain't no lions and tigers in England! Never was! The point: People pollinate each other all the time. But, alas, I don't have a Master's or a PhD in History, so apparently even this point also lacks credence. -
booklaw, I shudder to think that you are a participant in America's representative democracy.
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The feeling is entirely mutual.
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I have a driver's license. I hope that lends credence to my argument.
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booklaw wrote: I did not argue with his facts or logic (nor do I necessarily accept them). I argued and argue with the suggestion that he has "authority".
We need people to be willing to think for a participatory democracy to work. To think: to look at an argument and deconstruct its logic, the facts it depends on, the history it raises.
Booklaw claims outright that s/he's not interested in thinking through MHA's argument, not interested in his facts, the history he presents. S/he's only interested in debunking MHA's authority. I'm not even sure what s/he means by that, since asking MHA to have a PhD in this area is absurd. The history MHA relates is available to anyone with the ability to do a google search and would be conveyed to students in any introductory class on the history of the Caribbean.
We are one of the most educated societies in the history of the world. A remarkable educational system has followed our democratic constitution. Our forefathers believed that education (at least for white men) would enable U.S. citizens to participate in the new democracy by providing them with the ability to think critically about the issues on which they would be voting. Voting! Determining their own futures! Completely radical.
Yet, it's like all of that is just taken for granted.
There are a few (vastly outpowered) voices on this thread who are trying sincerely to understand MHA's point (notably xlizellx) but for the most part the mob is back: "Get MHA, get MHA, get MHA."
This is all very distressing. As much as the antics of Glen Beck any day. How are you going to resist the Tea Party when all you have to offer is a soupy, ill-informed liberalism that doesn't even make a pretense at critical thought? -
krowonhill wrote:
Sha-BANG!
This is all very distressing. As much as the antics of Glen Beck any day. How are you going to resist the Tea Party when all you have to offer is a soupy, ill-informed liberalism that doesn't even make a pretense at critical thought?
pwned. =D> -
=D> =D>
Krowonhill be droppin' BOMBS yo!
"...soupy, ill-informed liberalism that doesn't even make a pretense at critical thought."
I love it! -
Great article in this week's Village Voice about how whitefolks have lost dey minds... Not related to the West Indian vs. West African-Caribbean debate, but I was too lazy to start a thread using P.E.'s album title, "Fear of A Black Planet."
http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-09-29/news/white-america-has-lost-its-mind/ -
"[Obama has] a deep-seated hatred of white people or the white culture."
Every time I see that now ubiquitous Glenn Beck quote, I think about how it is a classic example of projection. On an unconscious level he can't deal with his racist impulses, so he projects them onto people of color. "Reverse racism" has now become an acceptable outcry for white people. Please. -
There is also a wonderful Thomas Friedman Op-ed piece in the times about the Tea Party movement that hints to the Voice article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/opinion/29friedman.html
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