The accused murderers in the Army: a sad statement about us
It's sad that this isn't a massive lead story on every news site today. Voters and every American citizen needs to understand that these things happen in your name and with your precious tax dollars when we fight wars & occupy nations for nearing on a decade.
This is the kind of thing that the country has to take into account when we're all buying the b.s. the president (then or now, Bush or Obama) and the media sells us about going to war.
Whether it's invading Iraq, quadrupling down on Afghanistan, or the Neocons and their Democratic enablers new favorite target for invasion and misery: Iran.
War costs trillions. War costs American lives, and misery for soldiers' families. War brings atrocities upon innocent civilians.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/18/AR2010091803935.html?hpid=topnews
This is the kind of thing that the country has to take into account when we're all buying the b.s. the president (then or now, Bush or Obama) and the media sells us about going to war.
Whether it's invading Iraq, quadrupling down on Afghanistan, or the Neocons and their Democratic enablers new favorite target for invasion and misery: Iran.
War costs trillions. War costs American lives, and misery for soldiers' families. War brings atrocities upon innocent civilians.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/18/AR2010091803935.html?hpid=topnews
Comments
-
-
Smaller scale, and unlike My Lai, seemingly ignored by the public.
Basically this country hasn't learned anything since Viet Nam.
The only thing they've learned is how to ignore our wars & soldiers due to the fact that we have no draft, and no plan to actually pay the bills for the wars. -
Wars are an impulse buy
-
If only all the Americans who support fighting wars felt the long term costs of them the way soldiers' families and the families of the nations we invade feel them.
-
It will take more than that to demilitarize America.
....we'd need to employ everyone that is presently employed in fighting and training.
Our multinationals would also need to hire their own secruity forces; they could no longer call upon the US to protect their/our interests. -
whynot_31 wrote: Wars are an impulse buy
I lol'd -
whynot_31 wrote: It will take more than that to demilitarize America.
....we'd need to employ everyone that is presently employed in fighting and training.
Our multinationals would also need to hire their own secruity forces; they could no longer call upon the US to protect their/our interests.
Demilitarizing America and not invading Iraq and Iran are two different things. -
I argue that if we maintain our present huge military, we will keep it busy.
....we always have.
It allows us to make those impulse buys.
Based on my perception of our democracy, I believe that a draft may make the problem worse. Those in power have always found a way to keep their sons and daughters safe, and expanding the pool of people in the military may just cause those who make Impulse Buys (glad you like the term Mougar), to have a higher credit limit.
God I love credit card analogies. -
whynot_31 wrote: I argue that if we maintain our present huge military, we will keep it busy.
I see your logic but I think it would have quite the opposite effect. While wealthy, elite and people with connections can keep their kids out, this applies to a pretty small percentage of Americans. If there was a draft, a huge percentage of the population who is indifferent to our war escapades now, would no longer be indifferent.
....we always have.
It allows us to make those impulse buys.
Based on my perception of our democracy, I believe that a draft may make the problem worse. Those in power have always found a way to keep their sons and daughters safe, and expanding the pool of people in the military may just cause those who make Impulse Buys (glad you like the term Mougar), to have a higher credit limit.
God I love credit card analogies.
It would then become much more difficult for presidents (oh, I mean congress) to start wars. -
Your faith in the public's ability to make our government accountable (esp. our federal government) exceeds mine.
.....I try not to write off the danger of federalizing power, just because it is a rallying cry of a certain political movement. -
I think a draft and the threat of war might be one of the only things that could actually cause a public outcry and change the direction of decisions/legislation or whatever.
-
If you are right, why would those in power vote for such a draft?
....I'd be surprised if we managed to even get some kind of national service in place, forget an armed forces draft.
(I'd actually be FOR some kind of national service. Get folks to see the country, do a little manual labor, meet folks not like themselves, etc)
I also like the arguement that many in the military make:
"If you force people to enlist, you are forcing us to take them. We want the ongoing ability to not accept people and/or kick them out, if we do not find them suitable. Bad solidiers degrade the military as a whole"
[dangerous analogy with public schools not having the ability to get rid of disruptive students comes to mind]
Basically, no one wants to supervise people who want to be someplace else, and the whole place suffers when they are around.
.....I argue that THIS would be the effect if you filled the enlisted ranks with middle class folks. They would sit on their butts because they felt they should be doing something else for 2 years.
....presently, the military has attracted a group of people that feel they have an opportunity to be part of an elite group of people who share pride in their accomplishments.
[note: it is crucial that that solidiers who killed the civillians, above, be painted as disgraceful regardless of whether there is a draft. Order and discipline are key whenever you have a force of 19 year olds with rifles] -
whynot_31 wrote: If you are right, why would those in power vote for such a draft?
They never will. Doesn't stop me from criticizing our current structure.whynot_31 wrote:
Again, I see the logic, but this speaks to an ideal that doesn't exist during our current engagements. Our endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and soon to be Iran!) have ensured that the Army is constantly lowering its eligibility requirements, most worryingly where it comes to psychological and criminal concerns.
I also like the arguement that many in the military make:
"If you force people to enlist, you are forcing us to take them. We want the ongoing ability to not accept people and/or kick them out, if we do not find them suitable. Bad solidiers degrade the military as a whole"
[dangerous analogy with public schools not having the ability to get rid of disruptive students comes to mind]
Basically, no one wants to supervise people who want to be someplace else, and the whole place suffers when they are around.
.....I argue that THIS would be the effect if you filled the enlisted ranks with middle class folks. They would sit on their butts because they felt they should be doing something else for 2 years.
....presently, the military has attracted a group of people that feel they have an opportunity to be part of an elite group of people who share pride in their accomplishments.
The army is desperate for recruits. Because we're fighting endless wars the country doesn't care about and isn't demanding an end to... -
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
This equally ghastly crime by US soldiers inspired the 2007 Brian de Palma film, "Redacted." -
Boygabriel we agree. (Booklaw and Boygarbriel feel free to PM me for a fun fact!)
Anyone remember when the National Guard used to be available for things like big tornados, hurricanes and earthquakes?
[please forget Kent State. k thx]
Anyone remember when joining the reserves (Army, Navy, Marines, etc) used to mean that you would only be called upon in only the most dire of national emergencies? .....you could have a regular job except for 2 weekends a quarter.... The concept of a "Citizen solider"?
Those folks are now overseas, and (as Boygabriel points out) their organizations are incredibly desperate for new recruits because they have been used in ways that were inconsistent with their missions.
Some argue a draft is already in effect: It is a poverty draft. (Although I don't believe it has gotten to that point, I think we are approaching it....).
See yes, we seem to agree on:
A. Ending seemingly endless wars.
B. Using our military in a way that potentially advances our domestic as well as international interests.
C. Holding soldiers and officers accountable for their actions -
Subject: Re: The accused murderers in the Army: a sad statement about
I don't get it. Is this a thread about eliminating WAR or simply a "beard" for talking about titillating consequences of it. Arguing against war by siting the atrocities of a handful is like arguing against the automobile because of drunk drivers, A rewrite:Automobiles costs trillions. Automobiles costs American lives, and bring misery for families. Automobiles bring atrocities upon innocent victims.
Sooooo let's get rid of cars.It's sad that this isn't a massive lead story on every news site today. Voters and every American citizen needs to understand that these things happen in your name and with your precious tax dollars when we fight wars
What makes you think, Boygabriel, that people don't know this happens?
Unless I'm supposed to draw the conclusion that all military personal are nothing more then lesser versions of these animals. What happened to the theory advanced during Bush's administration. You know the trickle down one where Chaney and/or officers ordered the torture at Abu Ghraib. Funny how Obama may be incompetent but at least he isn't the epitome of EVIL. War is nothing more then a part of a country's foreign policy. Without the threat of it, and there are some who need that threat, how can a country press it's agenda and I'm sorry but a country's agenda is not altruistic it is self serving, as it should be.
There are plenty of reasons to be against the war in Afghanistan at this point, mainly mission creep. why should we be bothering to build schools and waste treatment plants when all it does is expose our soldiers. And the women! Don't even get me started!
Things like My Lai and this thing are the exceptions. Arguing against war because things like this might happen is as flawed as arguing against building skyscrapers because terrorists might blow them up. -
The ever elusive search for those who are pro-war continues....
Even the most die hard hard soldier would prefer to play with his equipment and weapons in an empty desert, with a Motel 6 to sleep in at night and shower.
I'd like our foreign policy to be "have a product and services that people want".
....then we'd only have to use our military to protect our interests abroad.
Ah, the myth of altruism ....that somehow we are invading a country to save it and not benefit us. -
The unfortunate fact is that war takes a terrible toll on the men who fight it. Not just those who get shot or otherwise physically injured. Post traumatic stress syndrome affects many, and others become so inured to violence that they commit atrocities in the war zone or bring the war home to their spouses and their kids.
For that reason alone, if not for others, war should not be "nothing more than a part of a country's foreign policy." It's too expensive... and I'm not referring to the economy. -
I'd like our foreign policy to be "have a product and services that people want".
Whats not to like about our foreign policy?
Gas prices are pretty cheap.
That DeWalt 24V drill from china is a steal at Home Depot.
My broadband uploads/downloads on copper wire from South America thank you very much.
The grapes from Argentina taste like they came out of my back yard.
Now that's foreign policy! -
booklaw wrote: The unfortunate fact is that war takes a terrible toll on the men who fight it. Not just those who get shot or otherwise physically injured. Post traumatic stress syndrome affects many, and others become so inured to violence that they commit atrocities in the war zone or bring the war home to their spouses and their kids.
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59386
For that reason alone, if not for others, war should not be "nothing more than a part of a country's foreign policy." It's too expensive... and I'm not referring to the economy. -
Boygabriel wrote: Smaller scale, and unlike My Lai, seemingly ignored by the public.
President Obama's "stimulus" cost 100 BILLION MORE than the whole Iraq war. Now who is paying for that? And we still have record unemployment and 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty.
Basically this country hasn't learned anything since Viet Nam.
The only thing they've learned is how to ignore our wars & soldiers due to the fact that we have no draft, and no plan to actually pay the bills for the wars. -
modsquad2.0 wrote:
Sounds like a trade deficit to me. One which we fund with debt.I'd like our foreign policy to be "have a product and services that people want".
Whats not to like about our foreign policy?
Gas prices are pretty cheap.
That DeWalt 24V drill from china is a steal at Home Depot.
My broadband uploads/downloads on copper wire from South America thank you very much.
The grapes from Argentina taste like they came out of my back yard.
Now that's foreign policy!
Giving someone $ or a promissory note, is not the same as giving them a product or service they want. (at least not for us....)
Should we stop trading? No. Restricting us to consuming what is available from within the country makes our prospects for competing in the world even worse.
No protectionism here. ....let's build some infrastructure. Let's compete, and stop trying to intimidate. If need be, let's set aside the "morals" of intimidation, and just agree it isn't working. -
eggcream wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]Smaller scale, and unlike My Lai, seemingly ignored by the public.
President Obama's "stimulus" cost 100 BILLION MORE than the whole Iraq war. Now who is paying for that? And we still have record unemployment and 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty.
Basically this country hasn't learned anything since Viet Nam.
The only thing they've learned is how to ignore our wars & soldiers due to the fact that we have no draft, and no plan to actually pay the bills for the wars.
Typical. Don't let facts get in the way of your argument or anything ...
http://fray.slate.com/id/2232185/
Bush dug us into a deep hole, one we won't get out of overnight. -
eggcream wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]Smaller scale, and unlike My Lai, seemingly ignored by the public.
President Obama's "stimulus" cost 100 BILLION MORE than the whole Iraq war. Now who is paying for that? And we still have record unemployment and 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty.
Basically this country hasn't learned anything since Viet Nam.
The only thing they've learned is how to ignore our wars & soldiers due to the fact that we have no draft, and no plan to actually pay the bills for the wars.
Are you equating deficit spending during one of the worst recessions in recent memory to a 10 year unwinnable war?
Republicans, ladies and gentlemen! -
10 year? I would argue that combined with the no fly zones and bombings we made between the Gulf War and Gulf War II, there was no break between the two.
We've had soldiers on the ground, and planes in the air, for 20 years. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=eggcream][quote=Boygabriel]Smaller scale, and unlike My Lai, seemingly ignored by the public.
President Obama's "stimulus" cost 100 BILLION MORE than the whole Iraq war. Now who is paying for that? And we still have record unemployment and 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty.
Basically this country hasn't learned anything since Viet Nam.
The only thing they've learned is how to ignore our wars & soldiers due to the fact that we have no draft, and no plan to actually pay the bills for the wars.
Typical. Don't let facts get in the way of your argument or anything ...
http://fray.slate.com/id/2232185/
Bush dug us into a deep hole, one we won't get out of overnight.
Too funny. Facts? your article is from 2009. Today, 2010, show us how it's working/worked. Record unemployment, 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty and you say the stimulus is working? I have a bridge I can sell you.
Can't wait to hear those facts.
Bush hasn't been president in quite some time. It's getting pathetic for libs to keep blaming Bush.
Obama Added More to National Debt in First 19 Months Than All Presidents from Washington Through Reagan Combined, Says Gov’t Data
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/72404
President Obama has negative approval ratings and Tea Party candidates are kicking ass. Probably because the stimulus is working
-
Obama: spends money stimulating the American economy to help Americans
Republicans: spend money to destroy Iraq
I know which one I prefer! -
-
eggcream wrote: Too funny. Facts? your article is from 2009. Today, 2010, show us how it's working/worked. Record unemployment, 1 in 7 Americans living in poverty and you say the stimulus is working? I have a bridge I can sell you.
Many (nonpartisan) economists believe that the stimulus averted a much deeper and longer recession.eggcream wrote: Bush hasn't been president in quite some time. It's getting pathetic for libs to keep blaming Bush.
Surely you're joking. Repugs are still blaming Clinton.eggcream wrote: Obama Added More to National Debt in First 19 Months Than All Presidents from Washington Through Reagan Combined, Says Gov’t Data
It will take some time to undo the damage Bush did to our country. Eight years of mismanagement can't be undone in two.eggcream wrote: President Obama has negative approval ratings and Tea Party candidates are kicking ass. Probably because the stimulus is working
President Obama is at a pretty typical point for a mid-first-term President. The teabaggers are doing well in Republican primaries. As for their long-term prospects, we'll have to see...
They're making lots of enemies among their fellow Republicans.
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds