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. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque - Page 9 — Brooklynian

. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque

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Comments

  • mha
    mha
    I can't help but see parallels between the prospective pawn shop and the prospective Islamic center. The arguments against both are quite similar, i.e. the sense of insult that many have about it -- that it is in poor taste to put a pawnshop on a brownstone-lined residential block, the worry about how it will affect the neighborhood, and the resultant desire to find some way of ensuring that it will not exist.

    Are there any people here who also see parallels? I have a near conflicting opinion about it. I believe that the proprietor has the right to establish any legal business he might want to, but I also believe that a pawn shop will affect that block in material ways, as well as this neighborhood. So despite believing he has the right to have it, I definitely don't want him to. Similarly, I believe many who hold an opinion about the building of Cordoba House/Park51might feel the same way.
  • sweet tea
    sweet tea
    the difference, in my view, is that you actually live near the proposed pawn shop. how many of the people protesting park51 could even find it on a map?
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    sweet tea wrote: the difference, in my view, is that you actually live near the proposed pawn shop. how many of the people protesting park51 could even find it on a map?
    Also, the right to operate a pawn shop is not specifically protected by the Bill of Rights.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Humans have a history of persecuting people on the basis of their religion, and society has adopted a view that this is "bad", largely because religion is a core part of someone's identity.

    Folks who are in protected classes in this country have successfully convinced those in power that their rights would be significantly and irreparably infringed or damaged without government's protection.

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/html/commissioners.html

    It is hard to argue that Pawnshop Proprieters are in need of similar protection as a class, because there has been no similar history of persecution, and they could arguably live their lives "doing something else" without incurring significant harm.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Is it insensitive if "they" have prayed for the past year and no one has noticed?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/27/2010-09-27_ground_zero_mosque_already_exists_prayer_services_held_weekly_at_site_of_propose.html
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    whynot_31 wrote: Is it insensitive if "they" have prayed for the past year and no one has noticed?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/27/2010-09-27_ground_zero_mosque_already_exists_prayer_services_held_weekly_at_site_of_propose.html

    Yes. Building a 15 story mcmosque is extremely insensitive. Why there? Why not some place else? If they are so intent on building bridges then why not take into account that more than half of New Yorkers do not want Cordoba House built.
  • boygabriel
    boygabriel
    Hahaha. Welcome to the party eggcream! Remember the past 6 weeks when there was a big discussion going on? Maybe you missed it?

    Mosque opponents such as yourself have failed to answer this very simple question:

    What does a community center with a prayer room that serves moderate Muslim Americans and has no less ties to Saudi extremism than Fox News (look it up), have to do with the terrorists and 9/11?

    I await an answer, but I don't expect one. Nobody else has been able to give one.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    whynot_31 wrote:

    Let's not kid ourselves, it is difficult work to not hate all members of a given race/gender/religion after one was violated (raped, mugged, attacked by a plane) by a subset of that group.

    Let's help the rest of America do the work. ...let's support the mosque. The organizers can use it much like the church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) use Salt Lake City.

    Allow me to explain:

    A few weeks ago, I was in Salt Lake City, the headquarters of the LDS.

    The Mormons have taken an attitude that basically is:

    "We know many of you think we are freaks and don't understand us. Here, come to our temple and tour our facilities. Ask our guide any questions you wish. See our children and families going about their daily lives in our community center and temple. Please don't be afraid of us, or shun our children and centers of worship once you return to wherever it is you are from. Thank you."

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

    Free shuttles from the airport.
    Free tours in multiple languages.
    ...from 7 AM - 10 PM.
    Year round.

    It was all really well done.

    I can't think of a better place for the Muslims to have such a community center, than near the origin of the unfair hatred that is often levied against them: The former World Trade Center.

    ...and I believe the time to do it is now.
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    Boygabriel wrote: Hahaha. Welcome to the party eggcream! Remember the past 6 weeks when there was a big discussion going on? Maybe you missed it?

    Mosque opponents such as yourself have failed to answer this very simple question:

    What does a community center with a prayer room that serves moderate Muslim Americans and has no less ties to Saudi extremism than Fox News (look it up), have to do with the terrorists and 9/11?

    I await an answer, but I don't expect one. Nobody else has been able to give one.
    I keep getting : phpBB : Critical Error

    Could not connect to the database

    every time I try to post.

    There is going to be a 15 story in-your-face mosque/Cordoba House built. Not a little prayer room that they are using now. :roll:

    How do you know they're moderate muslims by the way? Remember the couple who tried to teach us about "moderate muslims" with Bridges TV? The guy cut off his wife's head when she asked for a divorce.

    This imam wants Sharia law in this country and that alone is more than enough reason to stop Cordoba House.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    This is going to be great. I can debate without getting carpal tunnel :)
    whynot_31 wrote:
    Please find a suitable building site within 6 blocks of 2 Broadway that is not also considered to be "too close" to ground zero. Convenient to transportation, etc. ...then convince El Gamal that he should abandon the perfectly good site he has already found.

    As the media has pointed out there are already several mosques in the area; he seeks to build a large community center. The Muslim employees of MTA, and other large employers with a high percentage of Muslims in the area, view the public's objection to the plan's with exhausted resignation.

    ....I view it the same way.

    This isn't a case of a newspaper displaying a photo of a mother standing over her just-murdered son. In such a case, I would not question the newspaper's right to publish the photo, but question the paper's sensitivity.

    ....In this situation, the organization clearly has the right to build and I find nothing insensitive about what they propose. Even if I (and the majority) of American's did find him to be insenstive, he has the right to decline to move the site. We have "rights" to prevent subjective, fluid interpretations of what is "sensitive".

    What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    whynot_31 wrote: As a result of this thread, today I've gone from merely believing it is a location I don't object to, to a location I strongly believe in.

    I now hope that two blocks isn't a huge difference to people.

    I hope the tourists visit the World Trade Center Memorial, then the community center in the same day.

    I hope that the builders of this center look at places like the LDS complex, or the huge mosque-community center I visited when I was in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (a predominantly Muslim country) a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_Negara

    ...both places do a really good job at changing people's preconceived notions by providing education in really nice facilities.

    I'd love for a well financed, well run, place like either of those to be in New York.

    ...And, I hope money comes from all over the world to support it in the present location, where it has the potential do the most good.

    Imagine the hundreds of thousands of people that could visit both sites each year, and the intense mental work and growth that could result!

    After they visit those two sites, they could visit the Statue of Liberty. It would be excellent, and be an example to the world of our ongoing moral values, as well as our historic history of being a diverse nation.

    Eggcream, do the organizers of the mosque-community center have a "donate now" button on their website?
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    whynot_31 wrote:
    What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right.
    I'll put that on my next pillow.

    Everyone with a brain cell or two knows they have a right to build Cordoba House. More than half of New Yorkers believe it should not be built there. There are already 2 in the area.

    Love how liberals are defending religion. Hope to see ya'll come out for Christmas when the ACLU threatens lawsuits against those insensitive Nativity Scenes or the horrible label Christmas Trees.
  • boygabriel
    boygabriel
    How do you know they're moderate muslims by the way? Remember the couple who tried to teach us about "moderate muslims" with Bridges TV? The guy cut off his wife's head when she asked for a divorce.
    One muslim somewhere saying he was moderate and then killing his wife doesn't justify restricting a completely unrelated group's freedom based solely on its religion.

    Sorry, still no explanation of what on earth this Muslim-American group has to do with the murderers of 9/11.
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    Boygabriel wrote:
    How do you know they're moderate muslims by the way? Remember the couple who tried to teach us about "moderate muslims" with Bridges TV? The guy cut off his wife's head when she asked for a divorce.
    One muslim somewhere saying he was moderate and then killing his wife doesn't justify restricting a completely unrelated group's freedom based solely on its religion.

    Sorry, still no explanation of what on earth this Muslim-American group has to do with the murderers of 9/11.
    Completely unrelated? Both were/are muslims. Your second question is absurd.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Sweet, now we can tie all religions together.

    Cue the Catholic priest sex scandal
    Cue the Westboro "Baptist" Church
    Cue the Nation of "Islam"

    .....um, wait, people don't like that either.
  • boygabriel
    boygabriel
    eggcream wrote: Completely unrelated? Both were/are muslims. Your second question is absurd.
    Yes, unrelated. Sharing a religion has nothing to do with the choice to murder innocent civilians.

    All catholics don't molest boys. 99.9% (literally) of Muslims don't murder civilians.

    There is no valid logic or justification for keeping a group out of a neighborhood based on its religion.

    It's not how our free society works.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    homeowner wrote: I must say that as a New Yorker, I find the concept of limiting anyone's right to worship to be troubling. I also find the concept of "someone has committed an unspeakable crime, so therefore not only must I hate the criminal, but anyone who has the same charateristics of the criminal" to be a tad bit assinine given the city we live in.

    Seriously, if I was going to impune bad thoughts on every race, religion, ethnic group, sexual orientation, political pursuasion,etc simply because one or two people who happen to belong to that group committed an unspeakable crime in NYC I would end up hating (in no particular order):

    1) Men
    2) Women
    3) Whites
    4) Blacks
    5) Hispanics
    6) Asians
    7) Heterosexuals
    8 ) Homosexuals
    9) Catholics
    10) Christians
    11) Jews
    12) Muslims
    13) Italians
    14) Irish
    15) Europeans
    16) Republicans
    17) Democrats
    18 ) The mentally ill
    19) New Jersey residents
    20) People from Connecticut
    21) Rich people
    22) Poor people
    23) Middle class people
    24) Good boys
    25) Good girls
    26) Bad boys
    27) Bad girls

    As far as I could tell, I would have one friend,an asexual, Zoroastrian, midget from Pennsylvania who had taken a vow of poverty.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    homeowner wrote: So I guess I have to add to my list

    28 ) Drunks
    29) People from Brewster
    30) Taxi passengers

    Man Is Held in Anti-Muslim Stabbing of Cabdriver
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    eggcream wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]
    How do you know they're moderate muslims by the way? Remember the couple who tried to teach us about "moderate muslims" with Bridges TV? The guy cut off his wife's head when she asked for a divorce.
    One muslim somewhere saying he was moderate and then killing his wife doesn't justify restricting a completely unrelated group's freedom based solely on its religion.

    Sorry, still no explanation of what on earth this Muslim-American group has to do with the murderers of 9/11.
    Completely unrelated? Both were/are muslims. Your second question is absurd.
    By your logic, it would clearly be insensitive to have a Catholic church near a park, school or other place children might be found, given the history of sexual abuse. I mean, they're all Catholics, right?


    EDIT: Dammit, BG beat me to it! But actually, eggcream's statement goes even beyond this, since he doesn't specify a specific sect of Islam that he holds responsible for 9/11. A better analogy would actually be to hold all Christians responsible for child molestation by priests, not just Catholics.
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    Boygabriel wrote: [quote=eggcream]Completely unrelated? Both were/are muslims. Your second question is absurd.
    Yes, unrelated. Sharing a religion has nothing to do with the choice to murder innocent civilians.

    All catholics don't molest boys. 99.9% (literally) of Muslims don't murder civilians.

    There is no valid logic or justification for keeping a group out of a neighborhood based on its religion.

    It's not how our free society works.

    99.9? Got a link to back that up?

    Planes were flown into the WTC in the name of Islam. Putting a 15 story mosque 2 blocks away is insensitive as they come.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    So if I do something in the name of a religion, that religion is prohibited from being active near where I did it?

    I could do a lot of damage with such power.
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    eggcream wrote: Planes were flown into the WTC in the name of Islam. Putting a 15 story mosque 2 blocks away is insensitive as they come.
    Your premise is bullshit, but even your assumed "facts" are wrong. There is no 15 story mosque planned. This is quite simply untrue. The site as planned is a cultural center. There will be a prayer room in it. It will not be a 15 story mosque. This is simply (to put it in your terms) a "Faux News" lie.
  • mha
    mha
    Great article in this week's Village Voice. Apparently Nat Hentoff also takes issue with the Imam and his determination to build this center.
  • mougar
    mougar
    Carnivore wrote: [quote=eggcream]Planes were flown into the WTC in the name of Islam. Putting a 15 story mosque 2 blocks away is insensitive as they come.
    Your premise is bullshit, but even your assumed "facts" are wrong. There is no 15 story mosque planned. This is quite simply untrue. The site as planned is a cultural center. There IS a prayer room in it. It will not be a 15 story mosque. This is simply (to put it in your terms) a "Faux News" lie.
    FTFY, people have been praying there for a while
  • boygabriel
    boygabriel
    Planes were flown into the WTC in the name of Islam. Putting a 15 story mosque 2 blocks away is insensitive as they come.
    In this country we don't judge people based on religious affiliation. At least we try not to, thankfully people like you don't write the laws or enforce them.

    If we did, there would be no Catholic Churches anywhere near playgrounds or schools.

    But there are, aren't there?

    You know why? Because religious affiliation isn't legal or moral grounds for judging a group of people.
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    Again BG, eggcream goes beyond your Catholic analogy, since he smears ALL Muslims of every denomination with the 9/11 brush. To make your analogy appropriate, you'd have to ban all Christian churches from being near playgrounds or schools, not just Catholic ones.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    I've heard the 9/11 terrorists were men. I hate men.

    I've heard they had mothers. Their mothers should have taught them better. I hate mothers.

    I've heard the buildings were supposed to be able to withstand a plane strike, but clearly they didn't. I hate steelworkers and engineers.
  • eggcream
    eggcream
    whynot_31 wrote: I've heard the 9/11 terrorists were men. I hate men.

    I've heard they had mothers. Their mothers should have taught them better. I hate mothers.

    I've heard the buildings were supposed to be able to withstand a plane strike, but clearly they didn't. I hate steelworkers and engineers.
    Real classy to make fun of the families whose loved ones were murdered by islamic terrorists defending what over 70% of New Yorkers don't want. Why don't you go down to the next demonstration and bring up your ridiculous Priest and other nonsense comparisons. Get your crayons out and make up a bunch of signs.
    See how that goes over.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Rights are not democratically decided specifically because they are not always popular.

    For example, the Klan has the right to march down Martin Luther King Blvd. Although I don't like the Klan, I am fully aware that my annual donation to the ACLU helps them excercise their rights.

    However, unlike the Klan's march, I find nothing offensive about what Park51 proposes. Hence, I support the rights of the Park 51 Organizers by typing stuff here on this website, yet only donate to the ACLU to support the rights of the Klan.

    [RE: going to the protests, I'm not a big protest kinda guy, but do hope to make the Stewart Colbert Event. I'll be on the "Keep Fear Alive" side with you ...I expect to see you there!]

    I call my approach looking at the big picture, and perceive my view as the being opposite of a reactionary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary

    ...you can call it "nonsense" and "insensitive" if you like; that's excercising Freedom of Speech. You can even protest the project; that's also Freedom of Speech.

    ....about the only thing you can't do is stop it. "My people" are more powerful than "your people".

    Let's review

    My people:
    image

    Your people:
    image
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    Note, most of those opposed to the project believe in the rights the builders to build it. Very few feel Muslims = terrorists by default.

    Eggcream, do you consider yourself among the minority?
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