. Reid my lips: the Downtown mosque

Nat Hentoff makes the point that the moderate Imam has not expressed any consternation with Hamas not recognizing the state of Israel.... How moderate is that?

MHA-
When asked about Israel, I think most moderates say "no comment", unless you are a good friend and they have the next 5 hours to kill.

...this goes for Jews as well as Muslims, and everyone else who does want to be sound bite-ed (bit? bitten?)

Radicals, on the other hand, are usually willing to comment because they just call the other side epithets for 3 minutes and have said all they have to say.

sweet tea wrote: [quote=MHA]Nat Hentoff makes the point that the moderate Imam has not expressed any consternation with Hamas not recognizing the state of Israel.... How moderate is that?

i certainly hope someone has furnished the poor man with a list of topics he must publicly address before being covered by the bill of rights.

....that would be a handy list, especially if everyone building anything had to abide by it. (sarcasm)

Not only do I want people's stand on such issues to determine what gets built in the city, but I want the folks at the Dept of Buildings and Dept of Urban Planning to make such decisions on behalf of us all! ....Screw the Bill of Rights and the Supreme Court! (sarcasm)

Not only that, building something in NYC is now so easy, and I'm confident this wouldn't complicate the process further at all! Let's see, everyone would want to have their own favorite issue be part of the application and approval process, this list be a short, 3 billion page, Appendix to the existing forms and approval process. (sarcasm)

Not only that, I'm sure we could make the acceptable answers to be an objective part of the building code, and run the City in an efficient way that would never lead to bias. (sarcasm)

Returning to reality, one might wonder what exactly gives someone the right to build something. Yes, we have this thing called the Bill of Rights, but it only provides a framework for the conversation.

Needless to say, the founders didn't really specify how tall a building could be in Lower Manhattan in 2010. When you think about it, the whole idea of a high rise with elevators a swimming pool and whatnot was probably foreign to folks in the late 1700s.

Well, (believe it or not) by reading this piece, you have obtained the benefit of an expert!

Here's a short (I promise!) Two Part Primer to building in NYC:

1. Zoning Code.
So far everything that is being proposed for the Community Center site can be built "as of right" for the property. This means that what the organizers have proposed requires no variances, just permits based on engineering specs and architect sign offs.

Don't believe me? Kill some time by visiting the NYC Dept of Planning's website and research the zoning code that applies to the specific property lot being considered. It is all on line and some people believe it is exciting stuff!

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/subcats/zoning.shtml

...or, you can be as lazy as me and just some quality time jabbering with a highly regarded Urban Planner!


2. RILUPA
Let's suppose, just for a moment, that the building being proposed wasn't compliant with the existing zoning code (gasp). In such an instance, an Urban Planner would inform you that if the structure is going to be used for religious purposes, RILUPA supersedes the zoning code.

What the hell is that? I'm so glad you asked...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Land_Use_and_Institutionalized_Persons_Act

And that's everyone's abbreviation for the day: RILUPA. All together now "R-I-L-U-P-A" ....and, guess what!? It applies to ALL religions.

Readers, trust me, you'll totally impress the hot Urban Planner if you can casually drop RILUPA or "Brownfield" in a conversation.

MHA wrote: Agreed, there are some crazy, racist, bigots out there who don't want this center built for the WRONG reasons, but there are also some sane non-racist, open-minded people who don't want this center built for rational reasons.

And yet even in this thread, no one can articulate those so-called rational reasons in a non-hypocritical way.

MHA,

With all due respect, moderate Islam (which is a vast majority of islam across the world) gets next to no media coverage in the United States. To even read about efforts and speeches by moderates, you really have to go looking for it.

Basically I think that moderates are outspoken and are undertaking a lot of ground level initiatives, which differ based on country/situation, to fight the civil war currently going on within the religion. But we in the US don't really get a good global picture of the cultural ideological battle. We really only ever hear about the extremists' side. That is obviously justified to a certain extent, but a lot of times it's not.

I highly highly highly recommend this book, and the author (Reza Aslan) is great. He frequently writes thoughtful op-eds or does appearances on talk shows.

I think I might actually own Aslan's book. If I can't find it amidst the piles, I'll look for it and read it Carnivore.

I have friends who are Muslim, and what rankles me about ALL of them is that there is a deep reluctance to speak critically about Islam. They thrive on how they are wrongly perceived, and leave it there. It's the rare Muslim who will say "Yeah, that Wahabi shit is wack."

My own disenchantment with African-American Muslims -- such as it's interesting permutation in the form of the Nation of Islam particularly -- is based on how mute the Nation has been about conservative Islam. Do you recall the recording that Al Qaeda put out soon after Obama won the election? They essentially called him a traitor to Islam and an Uncle Tom. That utterance inflamed me. In the words of Chris Rock, "I don't give a fuck about Al Qaeda; fuck Al Qaeda; I'm from Brooklyn." What did 'radical' and 'moderate' Black Muslims say in response to this. Not a goddamned thing. What did moderate Islam say in response to that? Not a gammned thing! This notion of a 'moderate Islam' is akin to life on other planets. I believe in it, but I have little proof. So here comes moderate Islam wanting to build an Islamic center in the SHADOW of one of the largest tragedies to ever happen in this country. People protest; they bawl out, 'racism!' 'bigotry!" C'mon, man! Give me a break! Grow some balls and say something CRITICAL about the inequity of women in Islam! Don't talk about how wrong it is for 'America' to react this way. America doesn't trust 'moderate' Muslims because they haven't voiced a loud enough dissent to theignorance of what's going on out there in the Muslim world. In this sense a Bushism is appropriate: "You are either with 'us' or against us."

MHA, I think in every religion moderates aren't nearly as vocal about radicals as they should be. Or more to the point, the media doesn't get as much mileage covering rebukes by one sect or portion of the faith to another as they do with their "Check out what those wacky fundamentalist [Muslims, Christians, Jews, Mormons, etc] are doing now.

To single out Muslims for this ignores that fact, and as Carni says, draws attention away from the fact that in this country, we have far more to fear from our own home grown radical Christians.

MHA wrote: America doesn't trust 'moderate' Muslims because they haven't voiced a loud enough dissent to the ignorance of what's going on out there in the Muslim world

The American public's ignorance of moderate islam across the globe is hardly the responsibility of muslims themselves. You don't blame the people about which, supposedly, not much is known. You blame the people judging them b/c of a lack of their OWN understanding.

It behooves moderate muslims to be vocal about bridging the cultural divide. But it is hardly primarily their responsibility to make themselves known so that they can enjoy the moral right to build a community center. A right which would be almost completely unquestioned were it almost any non-Muslim religious group in this country.

That is pretty much the very definition of bigotry right there.

MHA wrote: I dunno homeowner. As I said, I know a few Muslims -- just a few, so yeah, they do not represent the majority -- and what is rife with all is this reluctance to take on parochialism in their faith. I can't say the same thing for Christianity, or Judaism, or even Buddhism for that matter. I don't think we have more to fear from wacky radical Christians because moderate Christians have the balls to call them on their B.S.

This is so untrue. The radical Christians in this country are not "called on their B.S." in so many areas where they are directly affecting day-to-day life for so many Americans. They try to impose their version of "Sharia Law" on us, they just don't call it that. From trying to control what women do with their bodies, to preventing people who love each other from marrying because it doesn't fit with their view of marriage, to undermining science education in classrooms around the U.S., to blocking public health measure that could have helped prevent the spread of HIV and saved thousands of lives, to even putting a tribute to their god on our fucking currency, they have put their stench on every aspect of our society. These are the important battles. Not stopping a group that has been in a neighborhood for years from building a community center.

If your understanding of moderate muslims is limited to strictly those you have personally met and those that are building this community center, then that is a severely limited understanding of the muslim world indeed.

Otherwise, I'm curious what outlets you seek to learn more about moderate Muslim movements from Europe to the Middle East to Africa to Asia.

There is more need to reach out to Islamic orthodoxy, and less need to reach out to liberal, tolerant poly-ethnic, poly-theistic America.

Referring to America as 'tolerant' in the context of this conversation & controversy is a joke.

It's tolerant as long as you're not Muslim.

You see, Boygabriel, I disagree with you here. Americans aren't throwing stones at Muslim women who want to get their groove on whether they are married or not; Americans aren't telling Muslim women that they have to cover themselves from head to toe when they leave their homes. Americans -- for the most part (even the racist, sexist ones) think that's bugged...

I have no argument with you regarding my limited understanding of Islam. Despite wanting a God's view of Muslims via satellite, yeah, my view is limited by my interaction through the Muslims that I met while in college and graduate schools, the ones I worked with, and the one I had shared some amazing wonderful intimate embraces with.So yeah, it's pretty limited. Not counting the Yemeni Muslims that operate bodegas throughout Brooklyn that I say ASA to, or the Muslims I meet and speak to when I go to the Pakistan Tea House on Church street (For the last ten years); yeah, it's pretty limited. Also, one of my all time favorite people, El Hajj Malik Shabazz (PBUH) was a Muslim, as is one of my very best friends -- a Sufi Muslim at that; You know the Sufis I am sure. They are the ones that most Muslims don't even consider to BE Muslims! In fact, isn't the Imam for the prospective cultural center a Sufi Muslim???

So yeah, I guess I have a limited perspective...

And I have to a certain degree a biased perspective. I admit that. I wouldn't say that counts as a bigoted perspective, as I am not qualifying Muslims as 'lesser-than thou'. I say biased because I do think that there is dire need for reform in Islam. I think the burkah and also the hijab are abominations, and I applaud the French effort to ban them in public schools, and indeed, in public life. I don't think that is a bigoted opinion -- though it is definitely an intolerant one. I take issue with the notion that the French effort to ban those things is necessarily bigoted. No doubt there are bigots -- French and non-French -- who applaud France for their efforts, but I think there is a legitimately non-racist, rational reason to say to Muslims, 'We respect you, but you cannot be a functioning member of our society and embrace such freedom-restraining practices. Indeed, to use the term 'bigoted' or 'racist' or 'prejudice' in this context abuses those words, and forces anti-intellectualism upon public discourse. It says, in essence, 'this is off limits'. So, in sum, that's my bias.

MHA wrote: Americans aren't throwing stones at Muslim women who want to get their groove on whether they are married or not.

Their sexual mores may be different than ours, but the consequences for violating ours can be just as violent and severe in much of the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people#USA

wikipedia wrote: * On July 3, 2000, in Grant Town, West Virginia, Arthur "J.R." Warren was punched and kicked to death by two teenage boys who reportedly believed Warren had spread a rumor that he and one of the boys, David Allen Parker, had a sexual relationship. Warren's killers ran over his body to disguise the murder as a hit-and-run. Parker pleaded guilty and was sentenced to "life in prison with mercy", making him eligible for parole after 15 years.[145] His accomplice, Jared Wilson, was sentenced to 20 years.[146]
* On September 22, 2000, Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more fags," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends.[147]
* On June 16, 2001, Fred Martinez, a transgender and two-spirit student was bludgeoned to death near Cortez, Colorado by 18-year-old Shaun Murphy, who reportedly bragged about attacking a "fag".[148][149]
* On June 12, 2002, Philip Walsted, a gay man, was fatally beaten with a baseball bat. According to prosecutors, the neo-Nazi views of Walsted's assailant's, David Higdon, led to what was originally a robbery escalating to murder. Higdon was sentenced to life in prison, plus an additional sentence for robbery.[150]
* The December 2002 homicide of Nizah Morris, a trans woman in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
* The killing of Gwen Araujo, a trans woman, by at least three men who were charged with committing a hate crime. Two were convicted of murder, the third manslaughter; however, the jury rejected the hate crime enhancement.
* On May 11, 2003, Sakia Gunn, a 15-year-old lesbian, was murdered in a hate crime in Newark, New Jersey. While waiting for a bus, Gunn and her friends were propositioned by two men. When the girls rejected their advances, declaring themselves to be lesbians, the men attacked them. One of the men, Richard McCullough, fatally stabbed Gunn. In exchange for his pleading guilty to several lesser crimes including aggravated manslaughter, prosecutors dropped murder charges against McCullough, who was sentenced to 20 years.[151][152]
* On June 17, 2003, Richie Phillips of Elizabethtown, Kentucky was killed by Joseph Cottrell. His body was later found in a suitcase in Rough River Lake. During his trial, two of Cottrell's relatives testified that he lured Phillips to his death, and killed him because he was gay.[153] Cottrell was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 20 years in prison.[154]
* On July 23, 2003, Nireah Johnson and Brandie Coleman were shot to death by Paul Moore, when Moore learned after a sexual encounter that Johnson was transgender.[155] Moore then burned his victims' bodies. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to 120 years in prison.[156]
* On July 31, 2003, 37-year-old Glenn Kopitske was shot and stabbed in the back by 17-year-old Gary Hirte, a straight-A student, star athlete[157] and Eagle Scout,[158] in Winnebago County, Wisconsin. Prosecutors contended that Hirte murdered Kopitske to see if he could get away with it.[159] Hirte pleaded insanity, claiming he killed Kopitske in a murderous rage after a consensual sexual encounter with the victim, because he felt a homosexual act was "worse than murder". The 'temporary insanity' mitigation plea was not upheld, he was found guilty, and received a life sentence.
* On July 22, 2004, Scotty Joe Weaver was an 18 year-old murder victim from Bay Minette, Alabama, whose burned and partially decomposed body was discovered a few miles from the mobile home in which he lived. He was beaten, strangled and stabbed numerous times, partially decapitated, and his body was doused in gasoline and set on fire.
* On October 2, 2004, multiple assailants in Waverly, Ohio, attacked Daniel Fetty, a gay man who was hearing-impaired and homeless. Fetty was beaten, stomped, shoved nude into a garbage bin, impaled with a stick, and left for dead; he succumbed to his injuries the next day. Prosecuters alleged a hate crime. Three men received sentences ranging from seven years to life.[citation needed]
* On January 28, 2005, Ronnie Antonio Paris, a three-year-old boy living in Tampa, Florida, died due to brain injuries inflicted by his father, Ronnie Paris, Jr. According to his mother and other relatives, Ronnie Paris, Jr., repeatedly slammed his son into walls, slapped the child's head, and "boxed" him because he was concerned the child was gay and would grow up a sissy. Paris was sentenced to thirty years in prison.[160][161]
* On February 27, 2005, in Santa Fe, New Mexico, 21-year-old James Maestas was assaulted outside a restaurant, then followed to a hotel and beaten unconscious by men who called him "faggot" during the attack. Although all of his attackers were charged with committing a hate crime, none was sentenced to prison.[citation needed]
* On March 11, 2005, Jason Gage, an openly gay man, was murdered in his Waterloo, Iowa, apartment by an assailant, Joseph Lawrence, who claimed Gage had made sexual advance to him. Gage was bludgeoned to death with a bottle, and stabbed in the neck, probably post-mortem, with a shard of glass.[162] Lawrence was sentenced to fifty years in prison.
* On February 2, 2006, 18-year-old Jacob D. Robida entered a bar in New Bedford, Massachusetts, confirmed that it was a gay bar, and then attacked patrons with a hatchet and a handgun, wounding three.[163] He fatally shot himself three days later.[164]
* On June 10, 2006, Kevin Aviance, a female impressionist, musician, and fashion designer, was robbed and beaten in Manhattan by a group of men who yelled anti-gay slurs at him. Four assailants pleaded guilty and received prison sentences.[165]
* On July 30, 2006, six men were attacked with baseball bats and knives after leaving the San Diego, California Gay Pride festival. One victim was injured so severely that he had to undergo extensive facial reconstructive surgery. Three men pleaded guilty in connection with the attacks and received prison sentences. A 15-year-old juvenile also pleaded guilty.[166][167]
* On August 18, 2006, an altercation occurred in Manhattan between a man and seven black lesbians from Newark, New Jersey. During the altercation, the man was stabbed. The women claim that they acted in self-defense after he screamed homophobic epithets, spit on them, and pulled one of their weaves off,[168] while he has described the attack as "a hate crime against a straight man."[169]
* On October 8, 2006, Michael Sandy was attacked by four young heterosexual men who lured him into meeting after chatting online, while they were looking for gay men to rob. He was struck by a car while trying to escape his attackers, and died five days later without regaining consciousness.[170][171]
* On February 27, 2007 in Detroit, Michigan, Andrew Anthos, a 72-year-old disabled gay man, was beaten with a lead pipe by a man who was shouting anti-gay names at him. Anthos died 10 days later in the hospital.[172]
* On March 15, 2007, in Wahneta, Florida, Ryan Keith Skipper, a 25 year old gay man was stabbed to death. Four suspects were arrested for the crime. The Sheriff is calling it a hate crime.[173]
* On May 12, 2007, Roberto Duncanson was murdered in Brooklyn, New York. He was stabbed to death by Omar Willock, who claimed Duncanson had flirted with him.[174]
* May 16, 2007, Sean William Kennedy, 20, was walking to his car from Brew's Bar in Greenville, SC when Stephen Andrew Moller, 18, got out of another car and approached Kennedy. Investigators said that Moller made a comment about Kennedy's sexual orientation, and threw a fatal punch because he didn't like the other man's sexual preference.[175]
* On December 8, 2007, 25-year-old gay man Nathaniel Salerno was attacked by four men on a Metro train in Washington, DC. The men called him "faggot" while they beat him.[176]
* In February 2008, Duanna Johnson, a transsexual woman, was beaten by a police officer while she was held in the Shelby County Criminal Justice Center in Tennessee. Johnson said the officers reportedly called her a “faggot” and “he-she,” before and during the incident.[177][178] In November 2008, she was found dead in the street, reportedly gunned down by three unknown individuals.[179]
* On February 12, 2008, Lawrence "Larry" King, a 15 year old junior highschool student was shot twice by a classmate at E.O. Green School in Oxnard, California. He was taken off life support after doctors declared him brain dead on February 15.[180] According to Associated Press reports, "prosecutors have charged a 14-year-old classmate with premeditated murder with hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements".[181][182][183]
* In Rochester, New York on March 16, 2008, police say Lance Neve was beaten unconscious because Neve was gay. A man attacked Neve at a bar leaving him with a fractured skull, and a broken nose.[184] Jesse Parsons was sentenced to more than five years in prison for the assault.[185][186]
* In Baltimore County, Maryland on May 29, 2008, eighteen year old Steven Parrish—a member of the Young Swans subgroup of the Bloods—was murdered by Steven T. Hollis III and Juan L. Flythe after they found "gay messages" on his cell phone. They felt having a gay member would make their gang appear weak and that by killing Parrish they could prevent that perception.[187]
* On June 9, 2008, Jeremy Waggoner, an openly gay hairstylist from Royal Oak, Michigan, was brutally murdered in Detroit. His murder is still unsolved.[188]
* On July 17, 2008, in Colorado, 18 year old Angie Zapata, a trans woman, was beaten to death two days after meeting Allen Ray Andrade. The case was prosecuted as a hate crime, and Andrade was found guilty of first degree murder on April 22, 2009.[189]
* September 7, 2008 – Tony Randolph Hunter, 27, and his partner were attacked and beaten near a gay bar in Washington DC. Hunter later died from his injuries on September 18. Police are investigating it as a possible hate crime.[190][191]
* On September 13, 2008, in Denver, Colorado 26 year old Nima Daivari was attacked by a man who called him "faggot". The police that arrived on the scene refused to make a report of the attack.[192]
* September 15, 2008 – A Bourbonnais, Illinois elementary school bus driver was charged with leading a homophobic attack on a 10-year old student passenger. The boy was taunted by the driver who then encouraged other students to chase and beat the child.[193]
* On November 7, 2008, in Newton, NC the home of openly gay Melvin Whistlehunt was destroyed by arsonists. Investigators found homophobic graffiti spray painted on the back of the house.[194]
* On November 14, 2008, a 22 year old transgender woman, Lateisha Green, was shot and killed by Dwight DeLee in Syracuse, NY because he thought she was gay.[195] Local news media reported the incident with her legal name, Moses "Teish" Cannon.[196] DeLee was convicted of first-degree manslaughter as a hate crime on July 17, 2009, and received the maximum sentence of 25 years in state prison. This was only the second time in the nation’s history that a person was prosecuted for a hate crime against a transgender person and the first hate crime conviction in New York state.[197][198][199]
* On December 7, 2008, Romel Sucuzhanya, a 31 year old straight Ecuadorean and his brother Jose, were attacked on a Brooklyn, New York street for appearing to be gay and for being Latino; they were walking arm-in-arm, which is normal for brothers in their culture. Romel later died from his injuries.[200]
* On December 12, 2008, in Richmond, California a 28 year old lesbian was kidnapped and gang raped by four men who made homophobic remarks during the attack.[201]
* On December 27, 2008, in Dayton, Ohio 24-year-old Nathan Runkle was brutally assaulted outside a gay nightclub.[202]
* On February 15, 2009, in New York City Efosa Agbontaen and Branden McGillvery-Dummett were attacked by four young men with glass bottles and box cutters who used anti-gay slurs during the attack. Agbontaen and McGillvery-Dummett both required emergency room treatment for their injuries.[203]
* On February 18, 2009, two men were arrested in Stroudsburg, PA for the stabbing death of gay veteran Michael Goucher.[204]
* On March 1, 2009, in Galveston, Texas three men entered Roberts Lafitte bar and attacked patrons with rocks. One of the victims, Marc Bosaw, was sent to the emergency room to have twelve staples in his head.[205]
* On March 14, 2009, a gay couple leaving a Britney Spears concert in Newark, New Jersey were attacked by 15 teens. Josh Kehoe and Bobby Daniel Caldwell were called "faggots" and beaten. Caldwell suffered a broken jaw.[206]
* On March 23, 2009, in Seaside, Oregon two gay men were attacked and left lying unconscious on a local beach. The men regained consciousness and were treated at a nearby hospital.[207]
* On April 6, 2009, Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11 year old child in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord after being bullied all school year by peers who said "he acted feminine" and was gay.[208]
* On April 11, 2009, a gay man in Gloucester, Massachusetts was attacked and beaten by as many as six people outside a bar. Justin Goodwin, 36, of Salem suffered a shattered jaw, broken eye socket, broken nose and broken cheekbone.[209]
* On June 30, 2009, Seaman August Provost was found shot to death and his body burned at his guard post on Camp Pendleton. LGBT community leaders "citing military sources initially said that Provost’s death was a hate crime."[210] Provost had been harassed because of his sexual orientation.[210] Military leaders have since explained that "whatever the investigation concludes, the military’s “Don't ask, don't tell” policy prevented Provost from seeking help."[210] Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was openly gay (or bisexual according to some family and sources);[211][212][213][214][215] the killer committed suicide a week later after admitting the murder, the Navy have not concluded if this was a hate crime.[216]

Is it too much to ask that we wait for a group to break a law, before we punish them?

....isn't that why we have laws? ....haven't we learned that writing laws in a manner that specifically targets a group (as opposed to a set of behaviors) is a recipe for chaos?

...rather the opposite of chaos: totalitariansm (a word I haven't used since college)

Cool man.

I'm trying to think of a religion that hasn't been invoked inorder to justify mistreatment of women and minorities.

I am failing.

People will use whatever they can find to justify what they were going to do anyway.