Shomrim

I agree, there needs to be a clearer line.

....in the past, NYC seems to have allowed some groups to form and maintain "citizen patrols", while discouraging others.

Those who "work closely with the police" seem to be the most successful, but it's vagueness makes it fraught with all kinds of risks.

For example, if I believe the police are not doing their jobs effectively there is a really good chance I am not going to be able to "work closely with them".

As a result, do I no longer have my rights to make a citizen arrest? ...would I instead be charged with an offense myself?

This could have the effect that areas underserved by the police have no recourse other than the police. By being subject to arrest themselves, local citizens would be prohibited from "supplementing the work of the police".

....meaning the most organized areas of the city with the best relationships with the police, would be able to supplement their already "good" relationship with the police.

...and the other areas of the city would be subject to the officers' whim.

Shomrim does what cops don't do. At least you can walk in Borough Park at 3am without any fear of being robbed, raped or worse. God bless Shomrim, they protect all law abiding, innocent people of Brooklyn. When was the last time you were mugged by a Hasidic Jew?
Citizen patrols are needed in all hoods of New York, not just the jewish hoods.
When we approached black community leaders and offered our help with organizing some black community patrol groups, no one stepped forward! They are afraid to patrol their own hoods cause that would make them prime targets: too much crime have infiltrated their community and almost everyone knows someone who's incarcerated or was incarcerated at some point in the past. You can't possibly patrol a community like that , that would be like going against your own family.

I have no idea whether the first guy on the scene was a Shomrim member, but post this account because it provides an account of an instance in which the Crown Heights Orthodox community came to the aid of a member outside of its community who was also victimized by a member outside their community.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=29082&catid=23

Mougar,
In this instance the Orthodox guy who held/tackled the mugger was first arrested, and then released after his actions were investigated.

Can we assume the Orthodox guy "had the guts" to tackle the guy because he knew his community would back him up if he began to lose?

.....that's the only way I'd have the nerve to tackle someone approximately my same size.

Now is when I wonder what the difference is between a bunch of unarmed guys cruising around with walkie talkies (Shomrim), and a community of neighbors who will protect me on the basis that they believe I am doing the right thing because they "look like me".

In the first instance, one could ague the citizens are "activists looking for trouble".

In the second instance, folks are just going about their daily lives.

In both instances, I have serious power as a result of being part of the majority.

P.S. I'm glad they got the mugger. As Shomrim becomes more active, I wonder if it will be able to reduce crime in its local area ....not just catch criminals. I.E. Are criminals bright enough to avoid making their living in areas where they know they will be tackled for mugging someone? ....will the Orthodox community be able to create an area of safety for its members as well as anyone else who happens to be walking thru?

This incident yesterday in CH seems like it was handled well by Shomrim:

CH Info wrote: Crown Heights [CHI] — Three teenagers were arrested Tuesday evening after being followed by a group of vigilant Shomrim volunteers who witnessed them kick in a window and break into a home on President Street.

The incident began at approximately 10:00 PM, the Shomrim hotline rang with a caller reporting a group of three teens walking on Albany Avenue shouting and throwing glass bottles indiscriminately. A Shomrim volunteer who happened to be just one block over began following them and observed their increasingly disorderly behavior.

More Shomrim volunteers began arriving on scene to back each other up and continue observing, and at this point only making sure that they don’t do any harm to anyone.

The group, described as African-Americans in their mid-teens, settled on the front lawn of a home on the corner of President Street and Albany Avenue. Shomrim observed one of the group kick in a basement window and they all went into the house – which happened to be vacant and under construction.

Shomrim immediately called 911 as well as the owner of the home, swarmed the property and nabbed two of the teens; the third attempted to flee but he was chased and apprehended a half a block away.

Police arrived on scene and after hearing from Shomrim they took the teens into custody and determined that they were all juveniles and needed a sergeant at the scene in order to make an arrest. He arrived a short while later and gave the order to make the arrest, while thanking Shomrim for their excellent work and professionalism in handling the situation.

CrownHeights.info later learned that the police called up the teens' parents to have them come pick their children up – since they were all juveniles; one parent refused and told police to send their kid to juvenile detention as they did not want their kid back.

source: http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=41590&catid=23#c

It kind of amazes me that the local kids haven't figured out they should look for unmarked cars containing volunteers, but I can't say I feel particularly sorry for them.

Sept 22:

Here's a demonstration of what can be accomplished by speaking as a block:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/09/22/us/ap-us-dismembered-boy-security-cameras-.html?hp&_r=0

After all, if you were Shomrim, why would you endure the allegations of following only people not from the neighborhood (i.e. not dressed in Orthodox attire, often black....), when it is far more efficient to watch from afar via cameras, and then dispatch Shomrim corps members when warranted?

Secure Watch 24 actually received the contract, and its logo can be seen on many buildings in Crown Heights and throughout the city:

This article points out that they monitor over 22,000 cameras in NYC and NJ: http://www.sdmmag.com/articles/87478

Newguy gets at what seems to me to be the crux of the issue: How closely will these cameras work with the local neighborhood patrols (often referred to as "Shomrim"), and what behaviors/people will be deemed suspicious to the degree that the local patrols are contacted, yet not the police?

While I perceive fighting surveillance cameras as a losing battle (I think it is just a matter of time before everything we do is monitored and recorded), I would like them to be rolled out in a manner that relates to known crime risks, and in way that does not further blur the line between public and private space.

On a personal note, I am often followed when I walk my dog thru the Lubavitch area of Crown Heights, and once got up the nerve to turn around and approach the guy in the car following me:

Me: Hi. Are you following me to make sure I pick up my dog's poop?

Him: We follow everyone who is not from here, so we aren't accused of only following blacks.

Me: oh, um, ok.

My understanding is that they can follow you, but not stop you unless they witness you commit a crime.

They are a reality; there is no need to call the police.

I have been told most of the Shomrim Patrols have at least five (5) cars on streets at any given time. Each of the Orthodox neighborhoods has one.

Here's the Facebook page for the one in CH: https://www.facebook.com/crownheights.shomrim

Good luck!

They could easily argue that they are no more intrusive, annoying and harassing than a Mister Softee guy who follows a group of kids.

Re: The NYPD. I don't know if you have ever witnessed an incident wherein Shomrim are present before the police; I have seen the arriving NYPD officers greet the Shomrim volunteers at the scene by name.

If you want to test their response time, you could probably just walk around some of the residential streets singing at the top of your lungs, dressed in your present attire. I suspect that alone would get their attention, and cause them to follow you.

Pro tip: Don't act so oddly you meet the definition of an Emotionally Disturbed Person.

Let me know how it goes. Like I said above, why use volunteers to follow people when you can use cameras?

Cameras are so much better..... they can provide the same (or better) level of surveillance, without the -um- "political" risks.

If you play your cards right, you might even get government to pay for 'em... Of course, you have something to exchange.

Shomrim seems to be in regular contact with the suspect they confronted this weekend:

http://crownheights.info/crime/403090/car-thief-confronted-pulls-knife-apprehended-by-shomrim/#comments

Note that in this week's instance, a Shomrim member was already following a group he deemed suspicious. Said group then committed a crime.

Also, it appears as if Shomrim members may already be taking pictures of people it deems suspicious, and storing them for future use. This is within their legal rights.

http://crownheights.info/crime/405250/gang-of-pre-teen-muggers-taken-down/#comments

Lots of media are now covering the investigation:

http://crownheights.info/crime/410708/media-coverage-cbs-abc-report-on-knockout-jews-assaults/#comments

I think it is safe to assume that lots of photos are now going to be taken of people in the "frum zone" that are not Jewish.

While this may sound like a good idea, I fear that -unlike Shomrim- they may not bother to follow (or take pictures of) everyone in order to insulate themselves from accusations that they only follow (or take pictures of) some.

WhyFi said:

King without a crown wrote: Police want the public to get involved by being a good witness,calling 911 or even holding a suspect until responding Officers arrive on the scene. Police don't want people taking matters into their own hands. These guys were alerted to a pervert jerking off in front of children and they followed him in effort to assist the Police.

Uh, no. A) they didn't simply follow him - they coordinated vehicles to block him off and had foot patrol to close in - if this isn't "taking matters in to their own hands," I don't know what is. They we're trying to assist the police? According to the article you posted, it looks like they were frustrated with the lack of response from the police and decided to try to get the job done themselves. That sounds like a nice recipe - authorize a vigilante group to assist the police... only to have the police ignore their requests, pushing said vigilantes to make stupid decisions that result in gunfire. Bravo.

The jury has returned its verdict. They found the man guilty only of gun charges, making me believe that they found it reasonable for him to be in fear of his life.

http://crownheights.info/jewish-news/413743/shooter-of-4-shomrim-acquitted-of-attempted-murder/#comments

Being a member of Shomrim is a brave act, indeed.

Happy New Year! Shomrim received a call, and seems to have handled it well: