Illiberal Liberals: The Firing of Juan WIlliams
Comments
-
a study in contrasts, both media people: Helen Thomas v Juan Williams
Remember her?wikipedia wrote: Comments on Israel and Jews
Thomas retired abruptly on June 7, 2010, following negative reaction to comments she had made about Israel, Jews, and Palestine during a brief interview with Rabbi David Nesenoff of RabbiLive.com.[1][47][48][49][50][51] Nesenoff was on the White House grounds for an American Jewish Heritage Celebration Day, and he questioned Thomas as she was leaving the White House via the North Lawn driveway:[50][52][53][54]
Nesenoff: Any comments on Israel? We're asking everybody today, any comments on Israel?
Thomas: Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.
Nesenoff: Oooh. Any better comments on Israel?
Thomas: Remember, these people are occupied and it's their land. It's not German, it's not Poland ...
Nesenoff: So where should they go, what should they do?
Thomas: They go home.
Nesenoff: Where's the home?
Thomas: Poland, Germany and America and everywhere else[55]
Nesenoff: So you're saying the Jews go back to Poland and Germany?
Thomas: And America and everywhere else. Why push people out of there who have lived there for centuries? See?
—May 27, 2010, RabbiLive.com [50]
A one-minute excerpt of the May 27, 2010 interview was posted on Rabbi Nesenoff's site on June 3, 2010. On June 4, Thomas issued a statement on her personal web site:
I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians. They do not reflect my heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance. May that day come soon.[56][57][58]
In October 2010, while being interviewed by Ohio radio station WMRN-AM, Thomas acknowledged that her controversial comments had touched a nerve, but that they were "exactly what I thought." She said she realized soon afterward she would be fired, stating, "I hit the third rail. You cannot criticize Israel in this country and survive." Thomas added that she issued an apology because people were upset but that ultimately she "had the same feelings about Israel's aggression and brutality."[59]
[edit] Repercussions
Thomas's agency, Nine Speakers, Inc., dropped her as a client because of her remarks.[60][61] Craig Crawford, who co-authored Listen up, Mr. President, said "I ... will no longer be working with Helen on our book projects.”[62] Her scheduled delivery of a commencement speech at Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda, Maryland, was canceled by the school.[63] The White House Correspondents' Association, over which she once presided, issued a statement calling her remarks "indefensible".[64] On June 7, Thomas abruptly tendered her resignation from Hearst Newspapers.[65] -
Freedom of speech is not covered by the employer - employee contract.
It's called At Will Employment.
Here's how it is expressed in NYS:
http://www.labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/faq.shtm#14Q: Can an employee be fired without due cause?
General whats-his-face got fired by Obama for talking to Rolling Stone. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65K4W220100623
A: Yes. New York State is an "employment-at-will," state. Without a contract restricting termination (such as a collective bargaining agreement) an employer has the right to discharge an employee at any time for any reason. This also protects the employee's right to resign. An employer may fire an employee for "no reason" - or even for a reason that might seem arbitrary and unfair -- and the employee is equally free to quit at any time without being required to explain or defend that decision.
There are a few exceptions to "employment-at-will." The most significant of these are laws, enforced by the New York State Division of Human Rights, which prohibit discrimination based upon race, creed, national origin, age, handicap, gender, sexual orientation or marital status. For additional information about how the New York State Division of Human Rights proceeds against unlawful forms of discrimination, go to:
www.nysdhr.com.
Other exceptions to the doctrine of "employment-at-will" exist under § 201-d and § 215 of the New York State Labor Law. Section 201-d prohibits an employer from firing an employee for political or recreational activities outside of work, for legal use of consumable products outside of work, or for membership in a union. Section 215 prescribes that no employer shall penalize any employee for making a complaint to the employer, to the Commissioner of Labor, or to the Commissioner's representative, about any provision of the Labor Law. Violation of § 215, can bring a civil fine and separate civil action by the employee. To obtain the text of these statutes, go to:
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS
Whynot_31 gets regularly repremanded by his employers for speaking his mind.
...its just part of life. Sometimes you get told you are not in charge. -
According to half-term quitter Sarah Palin, the first amendment is guaranteed by society, not by the constitution.
She believes this because she loves the constitution so dern much. -
Boygabriel, I see the merit of your point. It's still marinating in my mind..... I focused on the 'Avenue Q' aspect of William's point, and not the '...they are identifying themselves as Muslims' part.... Because implicit in William's statement is that to be a Muslim is to essentially be 'against America'; and that America is at war with Islam... Hmmmm, jingoism in embittered effect...
Still thinking... -
booklaw wrote: It was. A news organization should be unbiased and objective. His bigotry threw NPR's objectivity into question.
I think qualifying his statement as bigotry is questoinable at best given the context
There's a strange analog between PCists and certain members of the hip hop community that's been equally destructive to their constructs
These days in hip hop if you don't like a certain piece of music or an artist, for any reason, valid or not, you're written off as a hater. As you can imagine, such a barrier in front of constructive & insightful criticism has opened the floodgates for mediocre work, to the point that mediocre is the new good.
Likewise over-PCism turns a reasonable statement of a sensitive subject into bigotry.
Same deal as those super conservatives screaming "any criticism of our gov't is anti-patriotic". As a society our fringe groups are finding more and more ways to stifle productive dialogue.... -
Okay CTK, but what of the implications of Williams idea that what troubles him about individuals who are easily identifiable as Muslims (i.e. the manner of dress etc.) being somehow un-American? Should we construe followers of orthodox Islam as un-American?
And I say this with a bitten lip and gritted teeth myself, as I have BIG problems with Islam's treatment of women, and I do find it deeply troubling to see women in Hijab dress in the U.S. I don't think it's anti-American, but I do think that the second class designations of women is definitely anti-American. Now, would this prevent me from hiring a Muslim man or woman? Definitely not. Would I attempt to deny someone the pursuit of happiness and access to the rights and privileges all human beings should be afforded? Absolutely not.
But, I do think where the laws of this land clash with the laws of Islam, the law of the land should triumph. This means in real terms that if women who are Muslims want to cover their heads, then sure, by all means do that, as it's not against the law to wear a hat; if you want to wear a tent because you fear the lustful gaze of men, then sure, by all means do that, as it's not against the law to wear ill fitting clothing; but if you want to cover your face -- NO, that's against the law and should not be allowed. I grow near apoplectic what I see that. -
MHA, I think across the globe in Western societies there is just a growing problem regarding the integration of the rules and regulations of the Muslim faith and living in a Western society. Initially I was more understanding, and to a degree I think I still am... but ultimately it's tough, because as you mention, you can't live in America and not show your face. Living in America means giving up certain things, and the super PCists are making it difficult to even acknowledge that simple fact.
So I don't know what the solution is. But I do know that stifling dialogue on the situation as NPR did with this move is not the answer. -
booklaw wrote: It was. A news organization should be unbiased and objective. His bigotry threw NPR's objectivity into question.
I'm inclined towards this view as well: that a news organization should be unbiased and objective. Except that I don't think it's possible for an organization set up by human beings. As an example, even the selection of stories that are "newsworthy" requires bias. The so-called world news headlines are a lot different on CNN than on the BBC or on Al Jazeera (English, never mind the Arabic channel). So, what does unbiased reporting look like?
For a long time, as Ishtar says, I thought it looked more like NPR than any other news outlet. That's why this whole incident is upsetting me. As MHA states initially, I think it is the result of liberals coming down hard on somebody who won't stay within the terms they've set for the conversation. Just as I think that the same forces were in play during the Helen Thomas incident that pitu cites - although I think that Helen Thomas' remarks were more extreme than Juan Williams'.
Maybe the problem is this: while NPR has the relative edge on unbiased news, many of their hosts and analysts consistently throw in their personal commentary and viewpoints. (Jack Beatty on "On Point" comes to mind.) Maybe as a society we've grown used to this. We've come to expect our "talking heads". But, judging from this incident, it seems that we also want the ability to control what comes out of their mouths.
Should we insist again on unbiased reporting (even given that it is an unattainable ideal). Or would people just stop listening? -
Echoing CTK's point, and fusing it with Krowonhill's query (about whether or not we expect a semblance of objectivity from reporters), I think it's more interesting when a reporter has an obvious opinion, yet does not allow that opinion to stifle dialogue...
I think Juan William's argument about 'Muslims representing themselves as first Muslim and then second Americans' is controversial and in need of disassembling. It's a compact statement that requires at least three questions that all begin with, " Juan, what do you mean by...?"
NPR needs to explain more clearly the rationale behind the firing of Juan Williams. They do appear tarnished in my eyes. No doubt Dinesh DeSouza is sharpening his literary knives as we speak; he's the first person I ever heard use the term 'illiberal liberalism'.
But I REALLY think Williams has a point between the conflict between Islam and the U.S. -- Independent of the gory capitalist endeavors occurring in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and all the other places where there is oil and pipeline. There is a deep philosophical divide between Islam and the West.
And, I really think Islam has to take a step back. If Juan had followed up with, 'Yo, you can't treat women that way in the U.S.; we won't be tolerant of that...', in my mind, that would have clarified his point. I really want to hear more from Williams at this point, other than his polemic on Fox T.V. about the lack of (not-for-profit) corporate due process afforded to him by the high priests of NPR-dom. -
Cool The Kid wrote: MHA, I think across the globe in Western societies there is just a growing problem regarding the integration of the rules and regulations of the Muslim faith and living in a Western society. Initially I was more understanding, and to a degree I think I still am... but ultimately it's tough, because as you mention, you can't live in America and not show your face. Living in America means giving up certain things, and the super PCists are making it difficult to even acknowledge that simple fact.
But in the U.S. we were enjoying by a wide margin the most harmonious integration of muslims into our society of any Western nation. And now because of race baiters and fear mongers (such as many personalities on Fox News, and people who think it's legitimate to judge a Muslim by their dress, which seems to include Williams), we're actually regressing on Muslim integration.
So I don't know what the solution is. But I do know that stifling dialogue on the situation as NPR did with this move is not the answer.
And I'm not sure what you meant by, "you can't live in America and not show your face." Of course you can. -
MHA wrote: There is a deep philosophical divide between Islam and the West
Your premise is flawed by virtue of grouping all of Islam together as some monolithic force of culture and morality. -
True...
I also grouped 'the West' as well however. I wrote in broadbrush. If you are saying that I shouldn't do that, then I guess there is no point to describe a reality, which is that there IS a deep philosophical divide between Islam and the West. -
MHA wrote: Echoing CTK's point, and fusing it with Krowonhill's query (about whether or not we expect a semblance of objectivity from reporters), I think it's more interesting when a reporter has an obvious opinion, yet does not allow that opinion to stifle dialogue...
So we should demand from a reporter what we demand from a good professor?
i.e. As a result of the material they publish, we know that professors have strong viewpoints ....but a good school quickly cans their sorry ass if they don't fairly teach both sides of the issue.
The minature educrat in me says that it is more than the Dean who keeps such professors in check; it is the donors, the accreditation people, the alumni, etc.
How would we implement such a system to keep the press similarly "fair"?
....FAIR and the other media watchdogs clearly aren't making the necessary impact. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=100 -
It's more art than anything, and people have a higher regard for those who make the effort to do so. Regardless of what Juan Williams said, NPR is tarnished as result. There would have been more regard for NPR if there was a very vigorous dialogue that occurred as result. I was listening to WNYC and they mention the issue sporadically, and only David Brooks so far has voiced a sadness about what NPR did. I have yet to hear an NPR talking head say what NPR did was wrong. Now, if THAT happens, then NPR regains goodwill. The absence of that means that they are reluctant to offend the high priests of NPR orthodoxy (NPR fundamentalists?).
-
Education has tenure, which allows folks to speak out against their employer to a certain extent.
But lately, tenure seems to have a negative connotation.
Tenure for reporters? Contracts that stipulate you can be a jerk and not get fired?
(how do I get one of those?) -
MHA wrote: There is a deep philosophical divide between Islam and the West.
I disagree. There is nothing inherent to Islam that makes it incompatible with Western ideals. What we now think of as the West is a result of the Enlightenment when the widely-held precepts of Christianity came under assault. Our Constitution with its separation of Church from State resulted and inspired European nations in turn.
Regarding Christianity's patriarchy, I still remember learning as a child during the gospel readings at church that it was my duty to submit to my father and to my husband. The contemporary practice of Islam looks very different in Beruit, Lebanon - where women choose what type of covering to wear, if any - v.s. in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the center of Wahibism - where women are forced publicly into full-body and face covering by custom. As a woman, I'd rather be practicing Islam in Beruit today than practicing Christianity in pre-Enlightenment Europe, trust me. -
When I'm on an airplane I only get nervous if I see the pilot in Muslim garb.
-
For the record, these are some of the 9/11 hijackers in their "Muslim garb." -
Williams was probably turfed because of other incidents that had annoyed the upper echelon. I don't think it was a decision that was made quickly, despite the speed at which NPR announced his disappearance. I think that if you view the entire segment in context it gives a whole new meaning to what Williams said. The 10 second soundbite doesn't give that.
On NPR he's a contributor, a journalist. On Faux he's a commentator and there's a difference in roles and expectations. Obviously, NPR didn't like Williams' role as a Faux commentator defiling their image of a contributor/journalist.
As far as NPR being liberal, even the rabid rightie in moderate's clothing, David Brooks, gave NPR a grudging pass by saying they had been a down the line centrist organization for many years. -
MHA wrote: True...
No, there's not. Countries like Turkey or people like a vast majority of muslim immigrants to the US have for more in common philosophically with the US and broad western ideas of society & law than traditional concepts from, say, the Hasidim, or various rural African societies, or historical Japanese society which had an emperor up until 60 years ago.
I also grouped 'the West' as well however. I wrote in broadbrush. If you are saying that I shouldn't do that, then I guess there is no point to describe a reality, which is that there IS a deep philosophical divide between Islam and the West.
What makes your comment truly false is that there is no "Islam" with regards to some generally agreed upon idea of law and society. Extremists using Islam as a tool, or 2-bit dictatorships in Muslim countries who use it as a tool to further their own power, do not in any way comprehensively define what "Islam" is.
When you say there's a conflict between Islam and the West, you mean there's a conflict between extremists and dictators who use it to further their narrow own interests. "Muslim people" do not want to impose Sharia, they don't "hate us for our freedoms" and they don't care what women wear in public.
There is a huge civil war going on in the Muslim world right now, one that you are completely neglecting or ignoring. -
I loved my visit to Malaysia. ....it was by far one of the coolest developing countries I've been in. The majority of its residents are muslim, but (like the US, where most residents are christian) it strives to be tolerant of all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia
Although I don't really like the terms "East" and "West", it had a interesting mix of democracy and a national mosque.The judiciary of Malaysia is independent of the executive and the legislature.[53] The highest body in the judicial system is the Federal Courts. Underneath these courts, there are two high courts, one for Peninsula Malaysia and one for East Malaysia.[2] Malaysia's legal system is based upon English Common Law.[9]
Separate from the civil courts of Malaysia are Sharia courts, which decide on cases which involve Malaysian Muslims.[54] The sharia courts are run parallel to the normal court system, and are undergoing reforms that include the first ever appointment of female judges.[55] Debate exists in Malaysia over whether the country should be secular or islamic,[56] some states have passed Islamic laws, but they have not gone into effect due to opposition from the federal government.[57] -
Wow, that's really cool. And complicated yet logical.
-
It was amazing.
My wife and I saw more women in positions of authority and status than we do in NY.
....and the women were wearing moderate (yet traditional) muslim attire.
A government that actively pursued job creation and capitalism simultaneously. Beautiful chaos
-
I can't believe those Nice Polite Republicans would do such a thing.
On a serious note, good commentary on the firing here:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2010/10/yet-more-williams
two shorter snippets from the same blog.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2010/10/williams-the-bottom-lineBut as in the case of Rick Sanchez it seems to me that if you assume Williams has been doing valuable work all these years, firing him over this single incident is excessive. But as an NPR listener, I’m a good deal more familiar with Williams’ work than I am with Sanchez’s and it seems clear to me that Williams has not, in fact, been doing valuable work all these years. If Williams had never made these remarks about Muslims and NPR announced his firing this morning on the grounds of general lameness and lack of valuable contribution to their programming, I would have applauded the move so I’m hardly going to deplore what actually happened.
I do want to throw this out here: The problem with NPR’s political coverage is not so much that they employ folks who often mouth conservative arguments and framing devices; the problem is that they are utterly banal and tedious. And on that count, I think Cokie Roberts needs to go before Liasson (granted I’ll be happy if they both go, but one step at a time). In this sense, I’m a bit frustrated that Williams left over this flap. His comment was idiotic*, but the real problem is that his political analysis is useless, uninteresting, and uninformative.
-
Astroturfing FAIL!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/business/media/23williams.html?_r=2&ref=businessOf the thousands of complaints that have saturated NPR in the wake of Juan Williams’s firing earlier this week, some of the most telling have been from callers describing themselves as long-time “viewers” of NPR who warn that they are going to “stop watching.”
#-o
#-o -
I've never watched NPR and now I never will.
-
Uh, I think one LISTENS to NPR... It's RADIO....
-
MHA wrote: Uh, I think one LISTENS to NPR... It's RADIO....
Yes, the implication was that many of the callers may have been told to call ...and have no idea regarding the issue at hand ....only the items on thier talking points -
Yes, which is why "viewers" and "stop watching" were in quotes in the article.
-
...I was trying to be funny....
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds