Homebuying in Crown Heights South

We live on a great block in CHN. And our house is for sale! Shameless, I know, but take a look. http://www.elliman.com/listing/for-sale/brooklyn/crown-heights/854-park-place/udbelum

readymade1-
As you are aware, there is some incredible housing stock in Crown Heights. As a buyer of brownstone, condo or a coop, you will engage in a simple market transaction.

Although its been a little while since I've been on Crown St, I believe it is mostly brownstones and a few tenament buildings. Yes, the area is really well maintained.... and huge amounts of money have just been invested in Medgar Evers college.

If you are buying in a brownstone, you will likely enjoy the living on a block of hard working, middle class people. Krow is right, given the demographics of the area, your seller will likely be a black family, perhaps one that has lived there for decades. However, this family will benefit from the rising real estate values of the area.

If you are buying a new condo, beware of crappy construction. Many of these buildings were quickly build on under utilized parcels, and then the developers skimped on quality as the market for new properties became more difficult.

Buying a coop? New ones aren't being build, and the values have soared since the 1980s when most of the rental to coop conversions were done. So, see comment re buying a brownstone are applicable.

Regardless of the type of housing you are buying, welcome to the neighborhood! As a result of walking around it for years, and viewing all of the under utilized properties, I'm psyched that the lots are being developed, and that the people who have lived here for years are benefiting from folks who are interested in helping the community continue to improve.

Such participation is always welcome, and as a longtime resident of the slope and PH, who is looking to BUY (not rent) you likely do not meet the description of a gentrifier who will simply be here for a few years and then leave. She's right, that demographic does get some resentment because of the role they play in the great capitalist machine that is NY.

Although I live on the PH/CH border, six years of walking my dog thru Crown Heights has led me to conclude that I've felt no more tension in this area than any other area filled with largely middle class, college educated people. Lots of folks work who live locally work in health care.....

It happens.

....I wouldn't say to "many people", but -yup- it happens.

I'd buy on the blocks of Crown or Carrol St the OP mentions in a heart beat though. Some really nice blocks over there....

Not many blocks in CH have angry people hanging out on them. I certainly don't think of Crown as one of them.

It strikes me as a very sturdy, solid neighborhood of homeowners ...and one which might even have some on street parking.

If I were you, I'd PM diami. He/she seems the most informed

ah, but but those are medians, and the area he is looking in is in CD 9 (not CD 8, which you link and cite above)!

Here is the data for CD 9.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk9profile.pdf
http://www.communitybrd9bklyn.org/default.asp

But wait, there's is more!

Perhaps as a result of being long term NYC residents, the OP is well aware that Crown Heights South includes some low income areas and pretty down and out areas, many of which are packed with people.

He and his GF are not looking in those areas, and instead seek an area that (in my opinion) allows them to own something like the properties in PH and PS. He seems well aware that CH South can be summarized by CD9 stats, but -as per his post- it seems as if he (wisely) does not find such stats particularly useful.

Alas, he wants to know about the blocks he describes..... the likely owner-occupied, blocks he is considering.

Pull up recent data for the blocks he's looking at in Crown Heights South.

....quick, go ye to the census!

...the 2010 estimates might be out already!


Meanwhile,

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/realestate/20living.html

South of Eastern Parkway — a thoroughfare with a pedestrian mall on either side — the area borders the Brooklyn Botanic Garden to the west. Crown Heights blocks are a perennial contender in the garden’s annual Greenest Block in Brooklyn contest; last year the block of Crown Street between Bedford and Rogers Avenues tied for third place.

Gregory Todd, a broker with the Corcoran Group and a member of Community Board 8, says Crown Heights has a core of black homeowners whose families have owned for decades.

Granted Mr. Todd likes his commissions and may be most familiar with CD8, but this doesn't sound too miserable to me!

....that glass looks not only half full, but more than half full.

FWIW, PLG, also covered by this message board and across Empire Blvd. from CHS has a different history and little of the "racial tension" that "krowonhill" writes about. It also fits the OP's requirement for "a racially/culturally diverse neighborhood."

I really don't understand the resistance on this board to talking honestly about gentrification, which is a very real aspect of living in Crown Heights in 2010, whatever block you're situated on. Readymade sounds sincere about his or her desire to find a community that is both welcoming and diverse. In my opinion, the racial tension in Crown Heights will make that difficult. And looking back at the "spitting" thread, many here have had similar experiences as I have with this neighborhood.

I can't believe that someone actually posted a link to a NY Times real estate profile on Crown Heights that included the description of it as "a diverse neighborhood that these days, in the words of one resident, exudes a “great sense of peace.” I think that readymade has the right idea actually reaching out to people who live here, rather than relying on pollyannaish descriptions thunk up by real estate brokers and supported by property owners.

I don't know Crown Heights well enough to contribute anything meaningful about the neighborhood.

I do have close friends who've lived for many years in Prospect Lefferts Gardens, on a beautiful brownstone block between Bedford and Rogers Avenues.

Their block is totally integrated, and as close to a racial Peaceable Kingdom as one could possibly hope for.

I only wish the Slope were as integrated, much less as well integrated.

At the risk of sounding like I'm flogging my house, which I am, I had posted many things about CHN long before we ever made the decision to sell. If you look at them, you will see that, as a white couple, we have been very happy with our decision to move here. I don't know why krowonhill is so down on the area, but we're not. We lived in Park Slope before we finally saved enough to put a payment down on our house in CHN. I prefer CHN even though there are obviously huge differences in the shopping and dining choices available. As I've said in previous posts, we took the time to talk to our neighbors and get to know them, even the tough guys hanging on the corner who now say hi back to me, even if it is under their breath while they're looking to see if anybody saw them talk to an older white guy. My wife and I can honestly say we've never felt unsafe here. Granted, there are some assholes who I would rather not see around, but as gentrification happens, more of those assholes are white. So, I guess what I'm saying is that if you're prepared to be a part of your block and not just commute to and from it, you'll be fine.

as a long-time poster, i'd like to note with hilarity krowonhill's assertion that we don't talk about gentrification.

hilarity, i tell ya.

If possible, stay away from Nostrand. Also def don't buy near the Armory. I would say any clean residential block near a train would be ideal.

I'm not "down" about Crown Heights actually. I like it here. I would rather live here than anywhere in Manhattan even if I had $100 million dollars socked away in the bank. Which is not true of most posters to this board who are constantly focused on upcoming bars and restaurants which will "improve" the area. No offense to anyone, but my perspective is quite different: some restaurants and bars to meet the needs of the flush middle-class professionals are fine, but too many and a neighborhood starts to feel like a cheaper outpost of Manhattan.

I like getting my hair cut just a couple of blocks away from where I live at a salon where people sit around together and watch and discuss Oprah. I like being able to buy toilet paper and spicy Desi snacks from the "Bargain Basement" on Franklin Ave. and end up in a conversation with its proprietor about why Bangladesh is the best place on the planet. I like being able to support Imhotep on Nostrand Ave. by buying Jamaican vegan food there, because I think it's great that they are providing health food and jobs to a community that so often lacks these things. And I like being able to attend an event at LaunchPad practically any night of the week in a space that is welcoming to the community and committed to the arts, which I happen to think are really important too.

All of that said, I have had the pleasure (in a city far, far away - at least psychically) of living in a neighborhood that was diverse and where that diversity was embraced. It was really great. When I moved here, I had friends in Prospect Heights who said that the general area was as close as NYC got to that kind of experience. Now that I live in Crown Heights, I don't think that's true of this neighborhood (or Prospect Heights) for the reasons that I've stated, primarily racial tension between blacks and whites (which goes both ways). I also don't think that the Orthodox Jewish community contributes to a vibe that welcomes diversity.

I related to the question of the original poster, because it's something that I would have liked to be able to ask before I moved here. It's very likely that I would have moved somewhere else (perhaps PLGs) with the information that I have now. While I think a certain amount of gentrification can be good for a community, here it is proceeding at a rate that is alarming and is disrupting this neighborhood in ways that make it a really difficult place to live. I feel for the displaced inhabitants, and it is really unpleasant to constantly be the reason for their displacement and often the target of animosity because of that role. And I'm only renting, and the original poster has even more at stake since s/he is considering buying property.

And, no, I don't think people on this board like to talk about gentrification because they don't like to feel like the "bad guy". I have seen people here react viciously when the topic is raised. There is a tremendous amount of denial about the realities of gentrification on this board, as well as an allergy to discussing the role of privilege in gentrification.

http://dmna.state.ny.us/rental/rent.php

New York State DMNA Armory Rental Procedures
All rentals are initiated through the Superintendent of the Armory you want to rent. Please use the Mility Facility Locator to obtain the telephone number (and in some case, email address) for the Superintendent of the Armory you'd like to use.

Rentals are typically on a first-come, first-served basis.

Military units in the Armory have priority on use. Leases may be cancelled in event of a State or Federal emergency requiring the use of the rented area.

Superintendents maintain reservation systems and calendars for their own armories. Each has current rental costs for his or her facility(ies).

You should consult the Superintendent to determine that the space you want is available when you want it. If so, you you must fill out the DMNA Form 42 rental form and (usually) provide a deposit.

There may be some restrictions on use. Depending on the nature of your event and likelihood of additional costs to the state or the Guard, additional charges or insurance requirements may apply. The Superintendent can advise on these.

NOTE: This page provides only general guidance on the rental of armory facilities. Please consult the individual Armory Superintendent -- links above and below -- for information on specific matters pertaining to the Armory you want to rent.

Krowonhill wrote:

And, no, I don't think people on this board like to talk about gentrification because they don't like to feel like the "bad guy". I have seen people here react viciously when the topic is raised. There is a tremendous amount of denial about the realities of gentrification on this board, as well as an allergy to discussing the role of privilege in gentrification.

I submit that in addition to not wanting to feel like the bad guy, most "gentrifiers" honestly do not feel like bad guys. They're not displacing less well to do people for kicks... they're displacing them because economics leave them little choice.

If you need a two or three bedroom apartment, and you realize you cannot afford one in Manhattan or in Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens or Park Slope, you're going to look for one in Prospect Heights, Crown Heights, PLG or some other less expensive neighborhood.

The fact that you're able to rent at higher monthly rates than most of the previous tenants paid may well encourage landlords to renovate buildings, charge higher rentals, and thus force previous tenants to leave those neighborhoods. So you have become a "gentrifier".

Does that make you a bad guy? Could be you were forced out of your previous place because an influx of investment bankers and lawyers made your building unaffordable for you, a social worker or teacher. Could be you just had another kid, and you need a larger place than you could afford in your previous building.

Being poor sucks. No question. But not everyone who makes life worse for the poor does so out of greed or other evil motives.

If I was wealthy, I would buy a place like this:

http://www.homes.com/listing/117903709/1010_Carroll_St_BROOKLYN_NY_11225

I'd then live on site, and use the rent from the tenants and garages to cover my investment. ....just like the person selling it to me did.