Unleashed PitBull---Same owner as Lucky the Poodle
Comments
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nybt wrote: [quote=Captain M]You cannot blame environment, less educated owners, other off leash dogs, or whatever on the results of your dogs agressive behavior.
I think that there's a bit of a failure to communicate, here- maybe we should clarify some things, because this statement seems... off.
fair...nybt wrote:
Dogs that are agressive as the result of being attacked on leash need to bepositively reinforced that that situation is not always the same. If they are agressive as the result of a single event then they can be trained to associate other dogs whileon the leash with posiive experiences. Too many people use this as an excuse for agressive dogs.
First, there can be several reasons for a dog to be dog-aggressive. If it's because of poor socializing, that's one thing. If it's because that dog was previously attacked by other dogs, how can you place the blame with the victim? Also, dog-aggressive does not necessarily equal people-aggressive, and people-aggressive does not necessarily equal dog-aggressive.
I'll have to disagree about people vs dog agressive, small children arent much bigger then some medium sized dogs. But thats my opinion.nybt wrote:
I dont disagree with that, but as I said previously many "unexpected" things can happen that a city dog needs to be prepared for, like a an out of control child. So yes in that case it would be the of leash owners fault.
If someone is in a time and place where dogs are allowed off leash, and they are there with a dog-aggressive dog, then you're absolutely right, they're in the wrong. However, if they're walking their dog-aggressive dog down the street, and it's not lawful for other dogs to be off leash, and a fight ensues with an off leash dog, I don't see how you can blame anyone BUT the off leash dog's owner.nybt wrote:
And in what instance do you NOT blame a less-educated dog owner? They've taken ownership of a potentially dangerous animal- ANY dog is potentially dangerous. You assume a certian risk when you aquire the dog, it's your responsibility to educate yourself. If an unlicensed morotist mows down a pedestrian, do you say, "well, he was poorly trained driver, you can't blame him..." No way, you blame him because he assumed a risk when he got behind the wheel.
Look, as a dog owner you must know dogs fight to settle things and there is nothing wrong with two dogs throwing down and one gets pinned end of story. What I find sad are the dogs that
a) Attack without warning (aka ears back, tail up, stiff body)
b) Continue to attack after pinning even much smaller dogs
c) Attack dogs just for occupying the same 10 foot radius
d) Those dogs that continue to act psycho even after the fight has been diffused.
I know you'veseen these dogs around the neighborhood and at the dog run....they are bad dogs.
So by your example if I am walking my dog down the street and we pass a "dog agressive" dog and a fight ensues you know damn well it wasnt my dogs fault. I think dogs that display this uncontrollable behaviour have no place in the close quarters of our neighborhood with other dog and children.
So I posted originally becasue I found it absurd that someone with such a dog would chastise other owners for being off the leash when they are allowed to and on top of that single out small yapping dog owners for improperly training them. -
Captain M wrote: If they are agressive as the result of a single event then they can be trained to associate other dogs whileon the leash with posiive experiences. Too many people use this as an excuse for agressive dogs.
I'm not going to say that I completely disagree with you, but I'm not fully convinced that this is the case.Captain M wrote: I'll have to disagree about people vs dog agressive, small children arent much bigger then some medium sized dogs. But thats my opinion.
Really? I think that most dogs can identify other dogs unerringly- I mean, when it comes to those tiny little pooches, other dogs are certainly better than I am when it comes to identifying them.Captain M wrote: Look, as a dog owner you must know dogs fight to settle things and there is nothing wrong with two dogs throwing down and one gets pinned end of story. What I find sad are the dogs that
These are all horrible things, I'll agree, and I think that "c" is one of those points where they may have been a lapse in understanding. If it's a case of a 10-foot radius, yeah, that's VERY aggressive. Previously, when talking about dogs approaching each other, I was thinking not 10 feet, but in their grill, if you know what I mean...
a) Attack without warning (aka ears back, tail up, stiff body)
b) Continue to attack after pinning even much smaller dogs
c) Attack dogs just for occupying the same 10 foot radius
d) Those dogs that continue to act psycho even after the fight has been diffused.
I know you'veseen these dogs around the neighborhood and at the dog run....they are bad dogs.Captain M wrote: So by your example if I am walking my dog down the street and we pass a "dog agressive" dog and a fight ensues you know damn well it wasnt my dogs fault. I think dogs that display this uncontrollable behaviour have no place in the close quarters of our neighborhood with other dog and children.
You're absolutely right, it's the fault of the other dog's owner. I'm not saying that someone with a dog-aggressive dog should be handed a get out of jail free card, they should know their dog's disposition and they should act accordingly. They should step aside and let you pass or cross the street and avoid the possibility of confrontation.Captain M wrote: So I posted originally becasue I found it absurd that someone with such a dog would chastise other owners for being off the leash when they are allowed to
If you're working under the assumption that all dog-aggressive tendencies can be trained out, I see can that, IF it's when the other dog owners are allowed to have them off leash.Captain M wrote: and on top of that single out small yapping dog owners for improperly training them.
This we have to disagree on- small or not, they can still instigate and they still have sharp little teeth. I think that they need to be trained, too. -
Subject: Small, Yappy Dog
I have a small Yorkie who barks, snorts, growls, and generally goes berserk when he sees other dogs---he loves people, but hates dogs. I am by no means a "bad" owner. I don't abuse Moxie, I walk him on his leash, I treat him with kindness, etc., but he hates other dogs. I don't take him to Prospect Park because he doesn't like being around other packs of dogs. The strange thing is, he likes small, white, fluffy dogs. He loves Bisons, white poodles, and malteses...strange. Moxie doesn't bite, but he does run up to other dogs in a very loud, confrontational manner. After he sniffs their butts, he's okay. My dog walker says he doesn't display this type of behavior around her. What do you guys think? -
I think your dog is trying to protect you. That's why he barks at other dogs when he's with you and doesn't do it with your dog walker. Tiny dogs often bark more at other dogs than big dogs. What else can they do to try and tell the other who's boss? For the record, I've met RBG and her dog. They were both very friendly.
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Captain M wrote: and on top of that single out small yapping dog owners for improperly training them.
This we have to disagree on- small or not, they can still instigate and they still have sharp little teeth. I think that they need to be trained, too.
he he he do you guys realize that you agree on this?
90% of small dogs are agressive and bark a lot, it's a defence mechanism, and it can really work, I've seen small dogs scare big dogs who could eat them in 2 bites, I imagine it'd be impossible to train this type of behavior out of a little dog, but then I've never had one so I've never tried. ever hear of the term " Little Big Man Syndrome" I recon that's what they got. :-) -
There is nothing wrong or abnormal with a dog being loud, it seems to me to be part of an individual dogs personality. it can be unfortunate for the neighbors though. If you dont put the dog in what you know to be questionable situations then you are probably a better owner than most.
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Subject: Hi MC
Thanks MC...You were friendly too...Its always nice meeting new people.
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It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
-- Vince Lombardi -
The pic of Capn Kirk Barkin his head off is strangely appropriate. he he he
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Subject: dog aggression and training
Thanks for all the entertaining feedback guys!!!. *snerk*
I have a dog aggressive pit bull. Big deal. Guess what? Pit bulls were bred for generations to be dog aggressive. As a responsible pit bull owner I honestly recognize this fact and deal with it responsibly. I don't let my dog off leash EVER. I don't kid myself that it would be OK just this once. I have had my dog for nearly eight years without any serious problems or complaints from people living in our building - my dog seldom barks, for example.
Yes there is a difference between human-aggressive and dog-aggressive tendencies. Yes, toddlers and such occupy a grey area and NO dog should EVER be allowed to interact with toddlers unsupervised. When my dog was younger (one year old) she used to go into a sheepdog-stare (predatory stance) on toddlers walking down the street, and OH YES I put her in a five-minute down stay each and every time, after a salutory leash correction, once in the freezing rain even, to adjust her anti-toddler attitude. She ignores them now but NO dog should EVER be fully trusted with little kids. EVER.
I trained my dog using both aversive and non aversive conditioning. About twenty minutes a day for six months, beginning at about 10 months of puppy age, did the trick. I used the ultimate non-PC dog training book, Koehler's Method of Dog Training. Sorry halti fans (LOL) of course, no one method works for all dogs... Whatever works is what you do! But for strong aggressive dogs Koehler's works magic, especially under distracting conditions. My dog has had the leash snap drop off on several occasions. She has never run off. All I have to do is say "DOWN -- STAY". Right down on her elbows she goes. And stays and waits for me to put it back on! even when in Prospect Park with a strange, off leash Pit Bull literally running CIRCLES around us! Talk about distractions!
Dog aggression cannot be cured but it can be managed, and responsible ownership and training is how you keep it under control. Unfortunately you will always have fools who think that their dog MUST say hello to yours, without asking YOU if that would be OK, or whose off leash dog lopes over to say hello to your on leash dog, and that's when your strong training can prevent a serious moron-induced accident. Yes, my dog's reaction (growl, hackles) to other dogs has alarmed other owners at times. I will correct my dog in public for these UNWANTED reactions, (five minute down stays on hard sidewalks are great punishments) for no dog is 100%, but I can say NO dog has ever been bitten or hurt by my dog, since I don't let it escalate to the point of all out dog war.
My dog loves people, all people, and loves to greet anybody and everybody, and even will shake paws with little kids. She does circus tricks too! Trick training is the only time I use food rewards. My dog can even jump through a hoop! And she is totally civilized at home. I wish everybody could have such a great dog as mine! that's why I advocate dog training. I even invited Angel's owner for daily morning dog training sessions, but that would involve something too much like work.. I guess..oh well, but if you have a huge entire male pitbull, you are a fool if you don't obedience train it. And no, yelling at the dog and butt whooping it with a belt is NOT dog training IMO.
Train your dogs, people. Clickers, Koehlers, I don't care how you do it. Just do it.
8) -
I don't think that anyone stated or implied that a Halti was a method of training in and of itself or that it was a suitable replacement for training.
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Subject: Re: dog aggression and training
rockhound wrote:
It's good to know I'm not alone. We are a Koehler's Method family on our third KM dog. I won't tell others how to train their dog (unless you ask), but it just hurts to see dogs with no discipline (more than 9 out of 10, I'd say), owners that give up on their dogs because the dogs have no discipline, bad conduct resulting from lack of discipline.
I used the ultimate non-PC dog training book, Koehler's Method of Dog Training.
. . .
Train your dogs, people. Clickers, Koehlers, I don't care how you do it. Just do it.
BTW, I won't defend Alan for letting his "laundry" dogs off leash, but in my experience he and his dogs are sweethearts. -
My dog got bit during off leash hours Friday evening in Prospect Park, dammit.
The perp was an un-neutered male deer hound
(which looks just like an Irish wolfhound, an enormous shaggy boney beast exhibited every year at the St Patrick's Day parade.)
The dog was there with a dog walker who had quite a few other dogs with her. All the dogs were off-leash.
My dog - who is an older spayed female - is probably going to be fine.
The dog walker was in total denial, even though she was standing right there when it happened, and pulled the deerhound off my dog, who smartly ran away from the fight.
her: 'he doesn't usually bite - is he an unneuted puppy?'
me: ' he just DID bite - she's 7 1/2 years old, and spayed'
she 'well, he doesn't bite'
It was bullshit. My dog's head was in that dog's mouth and I don't even know if she's told the owner. She claimed not to know the owner's last name, and didn't have her cell phone with her...blah blah. She took my phone number, and said she would speak to the owner, but I haven't heard from either of them.
I don't often see this dog in the park, but the walker says they are there every day. I didn't see them this morning during off-leash.
SO, anyone else's dog been bit by a deer hound?
And if you happen to know the dog or the owner, pls PM me. They can get my phone # from the walker, who said her name was Norma, and the dog's was Terry.
phooey. -
I gotta air out a pet peeve, I didn't want to start a new thread, and this is a better place than most...
What the fuck is wrong with those assholes that jingle keys, etc, etc to try an do as much as then can to distract your dog while you're out walking?! I was out walking Lucy a couple weeks ago, and some guy across the street kept buzzing a cordless drill that he was holding. Every time she faced forward again, he would pull the trigger to get her to turn her head and look back. It pissed me off, but I figured that it was an isolated incident. Yesterday, though, walking down Park, I saw a guy across the street jingling his keys to distract two dogs that a young lady was walking about 75 feet in front of him! WTF?! What do you do when that happens? I almost wish Lucy DID have a mean bone in her body at times like this... -
yup. it's just so fun to get a dog's attention.
we get a near constant barrage of kissing noises and requests for cellphone photographs
actually, in the long dry stretch between childhood dog and city dog ownership, I used to sneak in a little petting with strange dogs . . . but I weren't dangling no keys or power drills to cosy up. That's just annoying.
I'm still trying to get the attention of the owners of Terry the deer hound who bit my girl . . . -
pitu wrote: yup. it's just so fun to get a dog's attention.
An attempt to cozy up I can handle, but it seemed as if these guys were just looking to annoy.
we get a near constant barrage of kissing noises and requests for cellphone photographs
actually, in the long dry stretch between childhood dog and city dog ownership, I used to sneak in a little petting with strange dogs . . . but I weren't dangling no keys or power drills to cosy up. That's just annoying. -
anybody read the letters to the editor in the most recent New Yorker about the Pit Bull article? I found them interesting and while I liked the article I agreed with the letters as well. check 'em out.
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I saw it today without a leash, i was hoping it would maul that kid running near it. I was hoping for drama and a good show. but atleast nothing happen.
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WhyFi wrote: I gotta air out a pet peeve, I didn't want to start a new thread, and this is a better place than most...
when someone tries to get kika's attention via loud noises
What the fuck is wrong with those assholes that jingle keys, etc, etc to try an do as much as then can to distract your dog while you're out walking?! I was out walking Lucy a couple weeks ago, and some guy across the street kept buzzing a cordless drill that he was holding. Every time she faced forward again, he would pull the trigger to get her to turn her head and look back. It pissed me off, but I figured that it was an isolated incident. Yesterday, though, walking down Park, I saw a guy across the street jingling his keys to distract two dogs that a young lady was walking about 75 feet in front of him! WTF?! What do you do when that happens? I almost wish Lucy DID have a mean bone in her body at times like this...
i keep talking to her asking that she ignore the sound and keep walking
and she does
it's an insecure control mechanism from the noise maker
i used to hate them. they don't bother me anymore -
quijibo wrote: [quote=WhyFi]I gotta air out a pet peeve, I didn't want to start a new thread, and this is a better place than most...
when someone tries to get kika's attention via loud noises
What the fuck is wrong with those assholes that jingle keys, etc, etc to try an do as much as then can to distract your dog while you're out walking?! I was out walking Lucy a couple weeks ago, and some guy across the street kept buzzing a cordless drill that he was holding. Every time she faced forward again, he would pull the trigger to get her to turn her head and look back. It pissed me off, but I figured that it was an isolated incident. Yesterday, though, walking down Park, I saw a guy across the street jingling his keys to distract two dogs that a young lady was walking about 75 feet in front of him! WTF?! What do you do when that happens? I almost wish Lucy DID have a mean bone in her body at times like this...
i keep talking to her asking that she ignore the sound and keep walking
and she does
it's an insecure control mechanism from the noise maker
i used to hate them. they don't bother me anymore
i always thought cause people like dogs and want to get the attention of dogs. as when people do that to baby's. -
pete_c wrote:
Just reading this, and I first have to say I am a dog lover, grew up with them, can't wait to have one (no time/space right now unfortunately). Having said that, I'm also a research analyst, doing stats all day, so I have to wonder how many golden retrievers there are compared to pit bulls. I'd suspect there are a hella lot more Golden retriever pets than Pits, skewing the data. However, this is just speculation... I just don't happen to see a lot of Pits, but everyone seems to have a golden retriever, at least where I'm from...
One more thing to consider: the breed of dogs responsible for the greatest number of human bites in the US?
Golden retrievers.
Also, if you're going to make a statement like the one above, send us a link to some evidence... just cause we might be bored enough to want to read it
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pete_c wrote: One more thing to consider: the breed of dogs responsible for the greatest number of human bites in the US?
i've always heard Black Retrievers have that honor?
Golden retrievers. -
armchair_warrior wrote: i always thought cause people like dogs and want to get the attention of dogs. as when people do that to baby's.
it's usually one or the other, except when it's not -
quijibo wrote: [quote=pete_c]One more thing to consider: the breed of dogs responsible for the greatest number of human bites in the US?
i've always heard Black Retrievers have that honor?
Golden retrievers.
Why you gotta bring color in to this, you racist?! :x :x :x
:P -
kosherdave wrote: [quote=pete_c]
Just reading this, and I first have to say I am a dog lover, grew up with them, can't wait to have one (no time/space right now unfortunately). Having said that, I'm also a research analyst, doing stats all day, so I have to wonder how many golden retrievers there are compared to pitbulls. I'd suspect there are a hella lot more Golden retriever pets than Pits, skewing the data. However, this is just speculation... I just don't happen to see a lot of Pits, but everyone seems to have a golden retriever, at least where I'm from...
One more thing to consider: the breed of dogs responsible for the greatest number of human bites in the US?
Golden retrievers.
Also, if you're going to make a statement like the one above, send us a link to some evidence... just cause we might be bored enough to want to read it
How about this - The American Temperament Test Society does exactly what you would expect from the name - test the temperament of thousands of dogs in various situations. Dogs are issued either a pass or fail mark - you can read about the testing procedures and criteria here. In the interest of full disclosure, a fail is issued for any of the following:
* Unprovoked aggression
* Panic without recovery
* Strong avoidance
Unfortunately, they didn't have and/or release stats on why the dogs failed. It would have been interesting to see those stats...
Anyway, some scores of interest -
Breed Name, # Tested, # Passed, # Failed, Percent Passed
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 515 430 85 83.5%
AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 503 419 84 83.3%
BULL TERRIER 55 50 5 90.9%
STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER 59 50 9 84.7%
BEAGLE 59 47 12 79.7%
BEARDED COLLIE 45 24 21 53.3%
BORDER COLLIE 227 181 46 79.7%
COCKER SPANIEL 218 178 40 81.7%
COLLIE 801 633 168 79.0%
GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG 2786 2,316 470 83.1%
GOLDEN RETRIEVER 679 568 111 83.7%
MINIATURE SCHNAUZER 103 81 22 78.6%
STANDARD SCHNAUZER 56 37 19 66.1%
TOY POODLE 49 40 9 81.6%
The first four groups are all part of what is generally considered to be a pit bull-type dog. Cumulatively, we're looking at an 83.9% pass mark. As a group, they're more likely to pass the test than most 'family-friendly' dogs. Full list of breeds and test results here. -
WhyFi wrote:
<cat>
TOY POODLE 49 40 9 81.6%
The first four groups are all part of what is generally considered to be a pit bull-type dog. Cumulatively, we're looking at an 83.9% pass mark. As a group, they're more likely to pass the test than most 'family-friendly' dogs.
On the other hand, if a bad tempered toy poodle ever takes me on, I know exactly which of us is going to survive the melee. Matter of fact, I'm kind of looking forward to this show down, so watch out.
</cat> -
doctorj wrote: <cat>
On the other hand, if a bad tempered toy poodle ever takes me on, I know exactly which of us is going to survive the melee. Matter of fact, I'm kind of looking forward to this show down, so watch out.
</cat> My cats actually get the better of my dog all the time. Here's the kitten stealing the dog's bed - 
Yes, she's a pit bull-type. Yes, she's literally 10X the cat's weight.
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