I hate Bagel Hole

Eastern European immigrants arriving in the United States at the turn of the 20th century brought the bagel with them to the streets of the Lower East Side. The rise of the bagel in New York is inextricably tied to that of a trade union, specifically Bagel Bakers Local 338, a federation of nearly 300 bagel craftsmen formed in Manhattan in the early 1900s.

Local 338 was by all accounts a tough and unswerving union, set up according to strict rules that limited new membership to the sons of current members. By 1915 it controlled 36 bagel bakeries in New York and New Jersey. These produced the original New York bagels, the standard against which all others are still, in some manner, judged.

What did they look like? At a mere three ounces, about half the size of the bagel you'll find at a corner coffee cart in Midtown Manhattan, union bagels were smaller and denser than their modern descendants, with a crustier crust and a chewier interior. They were made entirely by hand.

Local 338 held its ironclad grip on the bagel market for nearly half a century, until industrial bagel-making machines were introduced to the market in the early 1960's. The introduction of industrial bagel machines meant any retailer or retail-bakery owner could make bagels with nonunion help.

America’s current mass bagel consumption is all the more surprising because until the 1960s, bagels were little known outside large Jewish communities in major cities. In 1951, The New York Times, in an article about a bagel bakers’ strike (“Labor Dispute Puts Hole in Supply,” the headline noted) felt it necessary to provide a pronunciation guide (“baygle”) and a definition – a “glazed surfaced roll with the firm white dough.” And a 1958 article in the Saturday Evening Post suggested that readers try “a happy new taste experience” – “a sandwich of cream cheese, sliced tomato and lox on a buttered bagel.” — Adapted from Times articles

From:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/b/bagels/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=bagel&st=cse

Yes, but as I mentioned there's no reason to assume the NY Times article is the authoritative voice on bagels. The same goes for the person who wrote a book about bagels - that doesn't necessarily make one an authority.

The union may have brought uniformity to the bagel, but not necessarily authenticity, considering that this came at least a couple hundred years after the first bagel was made, during which time variations must have been added.

But as I've said, I have no doubt the original ones were smaller because everything was smaller when it comes to food portions. My main issue is the concept of eating for historical accuracy. Particularly when most things are improved over time.

I'd much rather use Crest to brush my teeth than an authentic original toothpaste recipe, which would include a powder of ox hooves' ashes and burned eggshells. You want to eat a hot dog today, or a more authentic one from the days of The Jungle with tufts of rat hair? Would you rather drive a car made today, or do you prefer an "authentic" one you have to hand crank like the model T?

The only reason I could see for someone to promote one style of bagel over the other is if they're concerned that if not enough people eat them they'll stop making them. But I don't see that happening.

Carnivore wrote: By your logic no one can say that anything is better than anything else about anything ... Whatever. I don't buy it.

Well sure, if someone decides to apply my logic concerning bagels to everything else in the world, but why would anyone be compelled do that? Some things in this world just have a more transparent evolutionary provenance than others. My comments are bagel specific.

For example, if this were about sushi, I wouldn’t say the same thing. There’s an official sushi council of the Japanese government, a sort of Académie Française of sushi, and is the authority on the food. Not that I necessarily require such an organization for each food stuff to be convinced of its authenticity. Pizza has no such group that I know of, but its history is pretty well established. It just seems that both bagel history and bagel metrics are not so clear.

Still, I believe in eating whatever bagel my tastebuds prefer, and there’s no need for anyone to take that personally, and no one needs to “buy it.” Unless they want to buy me a bagel - just make it a big crusty, doughy one (garlic, onion or sesame please).

Piano wrote: Still, I believe in eating whatever bagel my tastebuds prefer, and there’s no need for anyone to take that personally, and no one needs to “buy it.” Unless they want to buy me a bagel - just make it a big crusty, doughy one (garlic, onion or sesame please).

Of course, like what you like. Just don't be offended when people insist on your preference as less authentic, especially when we're relating authenticity to the classic standard.

Man, I really hope no 18th century Polish Jews get on this message board.

Carnivore wrote: The bagel history is quite clear to people who grew up here eating the real thing.

That’s terrific, but it still doesn’t explain why historical accuracy matters so dearly when it comes to eating food. It’s odd that no one has bothered explaining that one. That and why some people seem to get upset if complete strangers don’t share their taste in bagel.

I’d understand if someone here is financially invested in the Bagel Hole (for the record I did give it a good review). In fact, I sincerely hope that’s the case because otherwise it’s just kind of bizarre to get so snippy over a bagel type or proprietor.

And for Pete’s sake, can’t just one of these threads not degenerate into an attempt to bait others into some sort of Greasers vs. Socs row? Does anyone actually enjoy that?

+1

Piano wrote: [quote=Carnivore]The bagel history is quite clear to people who grew up here eating the real thing.

That’s terrific, but it still doesn’t explain why historical accuracy matters so dearly when it comes to eating food. It’s odd that no one has bothered explaining that one. That and why some people seem to get upset if complete strangers don’t share their taste in bagel.

I’d understand if someone here is financially invested in the Bagel Hole (for the record I did give it a good review). In fact, I sincerely hope that’s the case because otherwise it’s just kind of bizarre to get so snippy over a bagel type or proprietor.

And for Pete’s sake, can’t just one of these threads not degenerate into an attempt to bait others into some sort of Greasers vs. Socs row? Does anyone actually enjoy that?

Just admit that the things carnivore likes are better than the things you like

vidro3 wrote: Just admit that the things carnivore likes are better than the things you like

In this case, it is undeniably true! :twisted: :twisted:

Vidro, don't despair.

Freddy's is coming to PS

:roll:

Go ahead, enjoy your Lender's bagels.

You have framed the question in a totally bullshit way, but I'll answer it anyway.

...because those are what bagels actually were before places started making bagels for people who don't actually like bagels. Before the 80s, most bagel shops made bagels primarily for Jews of an Eastern European tradition who understood what a bagel was supposed to be. Afterward, many started making them for people who are perhaps more comfortable with some sort of soft roll. You may enjoy those things, but they aren't bagels. The very fact that you don't consider bagels worthy of a traditional artisanal ideal that you accept for other foods such as pizza just shows your fundamental disrespect for this noble food.

Piano wrote: Wow, that sure didn't come close to answering my question. Oh well, at least you tried, sort of.

You sure have some relentless tenacity when it comes to trying to get complete strangers to either accept everything you say as gospel, or crumble beneath your withering insults. Clearly this is an emotional issue you take personally. I just find that very bizarre.

Just wait till he gets going about "Christmas" Trees. I'm with you, I love La Bagel Delight bagels. Bagel Hole bagels are mini hockey pucks in my opinion.

Here's some Bagel history. I didn't see Bagel Hole mentioned though so not sure how accurate it is. :P

http://www.haruth.com/bagel.html

Piano wrote: Wow, that sure didn't come close to answering my question. Oh well, at least you tried, sort of.

You sure have some relentless tenacity when it comes to trying to get complete strangers to either accept everything you say as gospel, or crumble beneath your withering insults. Clearly this is an emotional issue you take personally. I just find that very bizarre.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. No one would argue that some current-day Northeastern version of a Mexican taco is better than a traditional one made in Mexico, or that someone from New Orleans isn't a better judge of what a great Jambalaya is than some visitor from Minneapolis. I would definitely defer to a Southerner about what makes a great barbecue of whatever regional type it was. And yet you somehow refuse to accept similar advice from someone who's a local and deeply connected to the bagel tradition, here in a place that's arguably the worldwide epicenter of that tradition (you might get some argument from Montreal, but not from Poland anymore).

You're the only one here who has taken this to the level of personal insults, btw.