SPLIT TOPIC: American society: the poor the unemployed

I don't doubt that such people exist.

There is also no question that they are held up as misrepresentative examples by people who are fundamentally against the concept of welfare, entitlement programs, safety nets, and other community- and government-supported programs to help the poor and jobless.

Unsurprisingly, such people tend to be upper and middle class and usually come from a background of privilege, such as parents who attended college.

Nobody is saying they're representative of all, just that they exist.

Oh come now, be honest about the anecdotes you've mentioned and your over-arching points.

Your point is far broader than "SOME welfare cheats exist," a point which nobody here disagrees with.

My original point is that compensation for hourly workers isn't high enough. I don't see how on earth you can translate that into me absolving the poor of responsibility.

I am still stuck on issues such as these:

whynot wrote: While NYC has a high cost of living, on a macro level, we can't simply "move these folks to someplace cheaper". NYC needs the labor and services "they" provide, and would stop functioning without replacement labor ...which would simply replace our present people with "new" people in the situation.

At what point are they deemed "worthy of more government assistance"?

If we were to end government support, would the wealthy do an adequate job of giving people the assistance they seek?

Although I long ago concluded that the "charity programs" operated by the rich are more efficient that those run by government tax dollars, I often wonder:

How hard would life have to be for the lower and middle class before the wealthy voluntarily "stepped up their game" and created more charities to fill society's needs?

....and often vote accordingly.

Am I part of the problem?

Thanks to modern technology, you can see what benefits you would qualify for if you were poor! ....let's get rid of the myths.

Go on, make yourself an undocumented immigrant with a child born in this country.

Go on, make yourself a family of 4 who has two people earning approximately minimum wage.

Go on, make yourself be 73, depend on SS and live in a rent controlled apartment.

If you choose to, be outraged that the benefits are so high. If you choose to, be outraged that the benefits are so low....

It is all anonymous....

https://a858-ihss.nyc.gov/ihss1/en_US/IHSS_homePage.do

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BG wrote: Corporations are able to profit b/c of our (theoretically) functional thriving society. There is a social contract they must uphold.

For example, corporations are reliant on a court system to enforce contracts, a transportation network to get people and products around, public utilities to power their place of business, and an educated populace to make it all work.

(just expanding on BG's point)

Corporations have a responsibility to be beneficial to society beyond whatever benefit you believe their profits have for society as a whole.

I guess Coca Cola, Philip Morris, Loews (which owns Lorillard tobacco), McDonalds, etc. didn't get that memo.

Government has no obligation to provide manufacturing jobs to people who want them, just because they are not skilled enough to do anything else.

...barring huge tax incentives which screw up the market, government should not get the credit or blame for an industry coming or going.

The reason that many corporations have succeeded in the US (and made lots of $) is that we have a functioning court system to enforce contracts, a transportation network to get people and products around, public utilities to power their place of business, and an educated populace to make it all work.

Could these things be improved? Absolutely.

...but there is a reason that corporations choose to locate where they do. I believe BG is asking, "what is wrong/unfair about having them contribute toward the maintenance of such conditions?"

These things weren't free to create, nor are they free to maintain.

The trick is to not tax them so much that they leave....

The trick is to not tax them so much that they leave....

And to evaluate this, we need to rely on more than just taking the corporations' word for it.

"I SWEAR - if we get taxed another penny, we'll go bankrupt and/or leave for Mexico"

The major issue hurting the poor is not corporate greed or decreased income; it is the disproportionate increases in the costs of living. -CTK

That's a very broad brush you're using. There are plenty of examples of corporate greed and ideology hurting poor people or lowering wages strictly to maximize shareholder profits.

The entire meat processing industry.

The mining industry.

Miserably low wages, awful work conditions, no work place safety, massive attempts to block government regulation and investigation.

I can only presume he was talking about Republicans and the Tea Party in 2011?

Okay, so with the benefit of a snow day and a little quick research, here are a list of folks who were know as the “Robber Barrons” of 19th Century. Now let’s look at their philanthropic works

•John Jacob Astor- Created the Astor Library (later part of the NY Public Library), supported the writer Edgar Allan Poe and the ornithologist John James Audubon

• Andrew Carnegie- Carnegie funded some 3,000 libraries, founded what is today known as Carnegie Mellon University, established the pension fund which today is known as TIAA-CREF for teachers, owned Carnegie Hall, major funder of Tuskegee Institute, funded creation of the Hooker Telescope

•Jay Cooke – financed the construction of Episcopal Churches throughout the country

•Daniel Drew – built churches; financed the creation of what is today known as Drew University in Madison, NJ

•James Buchanan Duke- created the Duke Endowment to support Duke University, Davidson College, Furman University, Johnson C. Smith University; not-for-profit hospitals and children's homes in the two Carolinas; and rural United Methodist churches in North Carolina, as well as retired pastors, and their surviving families.

•Henry Morrison Flagler – Along with his wife was a major supporter of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

•Henry Clay Frick- Creator of the Frick Collection (now part of the Frick Museum); financed the purchase of Frick Park in Pittsburgh which was donated to the city along with $2mm for maintenance of the facility

•John Warne Gates- financed libraries and colleges in Texas

•Edward Henry Harriman- Harriman financed and accompanied a scientific expedition to catalog the flora and fauna of the Alaska coastline

•J. P. Morgan – established and served as President of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, benefactor of the American Museum of Natural History, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Groton School, Harvard University (especially its medical school), Trinity College, the Lying-in Hospital of the City of New York, and the New York trade schools.

•John D. Rockefeller- provided major funding for Spellman College. Rockefeller also gave considerable donations to Denison University, University of Chicago, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Brown, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley and Vassar. He founded the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research in New York City. It changed its name to Rockefeller University in 1965, after expanding its mission to include graduate education. He founded the Rockefeller Sanitary Commission in 1909, an organization that eventually eradicated the hookworm disease, which had long plagued rural areas of the American South. He created the Rockefeller Foundation, which focused on public health, medical training, and the arts. It endowed Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, the first of its kind. It also built the Peking Union Medical College in China into a great institution. The foundation helped in World War I war relief, and it employed William Lyon Mackenzie King of Canada to study industrial relations.

Now I’ll give you Forbes list of the ten wealthiest Americans in 2010

•Bill Gates-Microsoft

•Warren Buffett- Berkshire Hathaway

•Larry Ellison-Oracle

•Christy Walton-Walmart

•Charles Koch- manufacturing, energy

•David Koch -manufacturing, energy

•Jim Walton-Walmart

•Alice Walton -Walmart

•S. Robson Walton -Walmart

•Michael Bloomberg- Bloomberg LP

While the folks on this list are engaged in philanthropy, with the exception of Gates and perhaps arguably the Walton Family Foundation, it doesn’t begin to rival the amounts of money spent or significant institutions that the robber barrons were responsible for creating. Indeed, one of the key things that those gilded age bankers and financers did was compete with one another to see who could build the biggest museum, or the best school, or the greatest halls and opera houses.

So perhaps the key is to encourage private philanthropy from the wealthiest in exchange for tax breaks (personnal and corporate)?

boygabriel wrote: I can only presume he was talking about Republicans and the Tea Party in 2011?

It seems Camara's opponents predated 2011.

...perhaps he made the quote after an encounter with Glenn Beck's Brazilian great-grandfather?

homeowner wrote: Indeed, one of the key things that those gilded age bankers and financers did was compete with one another to see who could build the biggest museum, or the best school, or the greatest halls and opera houses.

So perhaps the key is to encourage private philanthropy from the wealthiest in exchange for tax breaks (personnal and corporate)?

Maybe give them an awards show?

Like American Idol, except most of the points would be awarded for philanthropy, and just a few points for singing.

I would like to make another plug for decreasing the barriers to social mobility

Ctk-

If you want to blame the poor for their poverty, lets make sure that those who do try hard and make the right decisions have a chance to escape poverty

Why is social mobility important for our country and beneficial for the rich?

-Talented people get more power

-People try harder if they think they have a serious chance to improve their lives (American dream)

CTK is mad because he thinks people aren’t trying and/or are making the wrong decisions. I think part of this is because, whether they consciously think this through or not, people see their cousin who does try extremely hard in life, does almost everything right, who tried hard in school, maybe got mocked for acting white (cause issues of race are never too far from class), stayed away from sex and got mocked for being a virgin, stayed away from the weed and the booze and got mocked for it, they see their cousin who does everything right, and then they see that person still not make it in life. Maybe they get to their first year of college and don’t get good guidance, they can’t afford it or they can’t navigate the college bureaucracy. Maybe they actually graduate, the first in their family, but are discriminated against at work because of their race or where they come from. People see this person and think, why the hell should I try? Why should I give up the good times when it doesn’t get me anywhere. This country isn’t set up for people like me. Being rich and successful, getting out of the hood- never gonna happen.

Ctk- I think you are mixing up the cause and effect. Rather than: people are poor because they don’t try. How about: people don’t try because they are poor and don’t see any serious way to escape poverty.

Having a lot of people who think there is no point in trying leads to a lot of problems. On the other hand having a lot of people trying their hardest to get ahead in life leads to a great country

How can we decrease the barriers to social mobility? I don’t know, it’s really hard. I think it has to start with education. Right now the people who need a good education the most get the worst. I here rumors that back in the 50s schools were integrated, but if you step in many (most?) schools in Brooklyn you wouldn’t think so. It helps if the kids that show up are healthy and well nourished, so I would support expanded health care and programs to make fruit cheaper than fruit loops. But it’s a really hard problem and it will need a lot of smart people to come up with a lot more ideas. Maybe, CTK, instead of blaming people for indulging in the luxury of having children, you can try to think of a few solutions