What Is Middle Class In NYC?
A couple of recent topics, the one on NYRR, and the one on terrorism, at times focused on what some people earn, and to a lesser extent on the dissolution of the middle class in NYC.
What I know about economics is pretty skimpy, so I can't even really define middle class in those terms, and I won't try. I do believe though that whatever middle class is elsewhere, it is not really the same in New York, and I'm not sure it should be.
Personally, I believe that a household income of well over 100K does not make one anything more than middle class here. I guess it makes you upper middle class, maybe not even that. Yet some people were offended by the salaries NYRR directors make, which if I remember correctly were in the 100-150k range for the most part.
Considering the costs of home ownership, raising a family, tuition, and vacations, and all of the nice things folks on this board, myself included, seem to like, this seems like a not unreasonable middle class income. In fact a 200k household income doesn't seem like that much really for two working adults, raising two kids in these parts.
So, what is middle class in New York City?
What I know about economics is pretty skimpy, so I can't even really define middle class in those terms, and I won't try. I do believe though that whatever middle class is elsewhere, it is not really the same in New York, and I'm not sure it should be.
Personally, I believe that a household income of well over 100K does not make one anything more than middle class here. I guess it makes you upper middle class, maybe not even that. Yet some people were offended by the salaries NYRR directors make, which if I remember correctly were in the 100-150k range for the most part.
Considering the costs of home ownership, raising a family, tuition, and vacations, and all of the nice things folks on this board, myself included, seem to like, this seems like a not unreasonable middle class income. In fact a 200k household income doesn't seem like that much really for two working adults, raising two kids in these parts.
So, what is middle class in New York City?
Comments
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Subject: Re: What Is Middle Class In NYC?
steve wrote: A couple of recent topics, the one on NYRR, and the one on terrorism, at times focused on what some people earn, and to a lesser extent on the dissolution of the middle class in NYC.
What is middle class in New York City? A dying breed.
What I know about economics is pretty skimpy, so I can't even really define middle class in those terms, and I won't try. I do believe though that whatever middle class is elsewhere, it is not really the same in New York, and I'm not sure it should be.
Personally, I believe that a household income of well over 100K does not make one anything more than middle class here. I guess it makes you upper middle class, maybe not even that. Yet some people were offended by the salaries NYRR directors make, which if I remember correctly were in the 100-150k range for the most part.
Considering the costs of home ownership, raising a family, tuition, and vacations, and all of the nice things folks on this board, myself included, seem to like, this seems like a not unreasonable middle class income. In fact a 200k household income doesn't seem like that much really for two working adults, raising two kids in these parts.
So, what is middle class in New York City?
It is typical for directors of many city-based organizations to get salaries over 100K. What is NYRR?
It's nuts that if a couple wants to have a baby or two, own a home, ensure their kids' eductaion, and not be on food stamps that both partners must pull in big money. Sad situation. Many couples with kids that I know are working so hard trying to make ends meet that they don't even spend time with their kids. -
Subject: middle class
from a purely anecdotal standpoint i would say $200,000 - $500,000 per year feels like middle class in the desirable areas of brooklyn. Does that make it so, probably not for those living outside of those places. would i want to raise a family on any less? hell no. -
my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
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My question here would be not to define "what middle class is" but when is what you have ($$$ make), enough.
Read into that as you may. -
armchair_warrior wrote: my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
But, 30k is not really enough for any of the better neighborhoods in new york. Maybe as a single person on a tight budget scrimping. However, that doesn't sound middle class, to me. -
steve wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
But, 30k is not really enough for any of the better neighborhoods in new york. Maybe as a single person on a tight budget scrimping. However, that doesn't sound middle class, to me.
he owns a house, lives in bath beach. its a nice area. unlike most ghettos. crime isnt high. like i said it amazes me how people live on so little with so much money. yet comunities like mines could live on so much with so little money. -
steve wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
But, 30k is not really enough for any of the better neighborhoods in new york. Maybe as a single person on a tight budget scrimping. However, that doesn't sound middle class, to me.
it really depends on how you define it. once upon a time i had a fancy job and a fancy salary and i was able to buy a home in this so-called fancy neighborhood (cough, cough). but i gave up that job and that $$ and still have my home, am trying to forge my own path as an artist and if i made 30k in a year i'd be thrilled. and you could be sure i'd be living well: we had very little growing up but never wanted for anything. if that's "all" i had i'm sure i could manage. without debt other than the mortgage. but that's me, and i do a fairly exceptional job of saving $$ and living well while being very poor. -
Subject: Re: What Is Middle Class In NYC?
raw wrote:
New York Road Runners club. A running club. The biggest in the world.
It is typical for directors of many city-based organizations to get salaries over 100K. What is NYRR?
And actually, the incomes posted were from 2003, so presumably, they're a good deal higher. And while the mean of what was posted was around 180 grand, what was shocking was the higher ranges of nearly 300K for a running club president, when many people in brooklyn were saying the recent 1/2 marathon was too expensive for them to pay for... -
armchair_warrior wrote: [quote=steve][quote=armchair_warrior]my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
But, 30k is not really enough for any of the better neighborhoods in new york. Maybe as a single person on a tight budget scrimping. However, that doesn't sound middle class, to me.
he owns a house, lives in bath beach. its a nice area. unlike most ghettos. crime isnt high. like i said it amazes me how people live on so little with so much money. yet comunities like mines could live on so much with so little money.
Can't say I've heard of bath beach, where is that? The Rockaways? -
Subject: Re: What Is Middle Class In NYC?
kosherdave wrote: [quote=raw]
New York Road Runners club. A running club. The biggest in the world.
It is typical for directors of many city-based organizations to get salaries over 100K. What is NYRR?
And actually, the incomes posted were from 2003, so presumably, they're a good deal higher. And while the mean of what was posted was around 180 grand, what was shocking was the higher ranges of nearly 300K for a running club president, when many people in brooklyn were saying the recent 1/2 marathon was too expensive for them to pay for...
Considering that Mary Wittenberg is an international presence on the running scene, 300k seems reasonable. We've already discussed that race, and I consider it a luxury item like World Series tickets. Should the middle class be entitled to the best of everything? There are plenty of $10.-$15. races. -
steve wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior][quote=steve][quote=armchair_warrior]my brother who makes around 30k a year and has a house and lives okay. i would consider that middle class. alot of people who make over 100k and cant even buy homes etc.. dont really know how to use money thats all.
But, 30k is not really enough for any of the better neighborhoods in new york. Maybe as a single person on a tight budget scrimping. However, that doesn't sound middle class, to me.
he owns a house, lives in bath beach. its a nice area. unlike most ghettos. crime isnt high. like i said it amazes me how people live on so little with so much money. yet comunities like mines could live on so much with so little money.
Can't say I've heard of bath beach, where is that? The Rockaways?
its near teh golf course i think here is a google link
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&sll=40.605384,-74.001503&sspn=0.015541,0.043731&q=bath++beach&ie=UTF8&latlng=40605384,-74001503,11915078216604609402 -
i'm moving to ph soon. in a few weeks. and i make about the same amount as my bro and its my own house.
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armchair_warrior wrote: i'm moving to ph soon. in a few weeks. and i make about the same amount as my bro and its my own house
Well, I'm glad for you, but I'm not so interested in what you or your brother do (or BP or anyone else for that matter), as ideas about what is the middle class in New York in general, primarily because I disagree so strongly with some of what I see posted here that relates to the subject..
Our own stories only go so far, and are flawed examples often. For instance I make it by on a similar income as you, if you go by my taxes. However, being self-employed I get to deduct a lot of what say, an administrative assistant making the same amount would not, cell phones, internet service, metrocards...
Anyway, back to the Mets Game. -
i just think the whole 100k figure is the most insane amount i hear in a long time. with that amount of money they can put a down payment in condo or home in a few years.
and thats where most of money is spent in nyc renting. cause those people are trying to live way beyond their means by living in the most expensive part of town. instead of living in a nice area for their money. thats why i think alot of people dont know how to use what they got. -
I'm always kind of shocked by how much money my family goes through in a year, to have what I consider to be a pretty basic "middle class" lifestyle. I didn't think the NYCRR salaries were out of line. What is amazing to me is that people manage to raise a family in this city on, say, two teachers' salaries. It is really freaking expensive to raise kids, and I'm not talking about sending them to private school or showering them with luxuries.
I am thankful every day that we bought our little frame house in the South Slope before prices exploded and back when the South Slope was very much the wrong side of the (F train) tracks. I can't imagine how a young family can afford to buy in the Slope now, without either a huge income or help from relatives. -
Subject: Re: middle class
none really wrote: from a purely anecdotal standpoint i would say $200,000 - $500,000 per year feels like middle class in the desirable areas of brooklyn. Does that make it so, probably not for those living outside of those places. would i want to raise a family on any less? hell no.
Oh Guest, I think you're letting your humble roots show. I don't think you can live a middle class lifestyle in the outer boroughs with a penny less than $750,000. I know that I didn't feel like I'd really arrived in the middle class until we had the gold-plated bidet installed in our vacation home. -
Subject: Re: middle class
EmilyM wrote: [quote=none really]from a purely anecdotal standpoint i would say $200,000 - $500,000 per year feels like middle class in the desirable areas of brooklyn. Does that make it so, probably not for those living outside of those places. would i want to raise a family on any less? hell no.
Oh Guest, I think you're letting your humble roots show. I don't think you can live a middle class lifestyle in the outer boroughs with a penny less than $750,000. I know that I didn't feel like I'd really arrived in the middle class until we had the gold-plated bidet installed in our vacation home.
check your pm
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I'm a single, early 20something female with no children and very little (almost no) debt
I make 45k a year and survive just fine. I dont have my own apartment, but could afford one if I wanted. I cant speak for raising children, but I could easily support myself and a spouse with a combined income of 80-90k if I lived in brooklyn (which I always intend to do.) The thought of saying that you need 200-500k to raise a family seems rediculous to me. -
Carmen wrote: I'm a single, early 20something female with no children and very little (almost no) debt
totally agree.
I make 45k a year and survive just fine. I dont have my own apartment, but could afford one if I wanted. I cant speak for raising children, but I could easily support myself and a spouse with a combined income of 80-90k if I lived in brooklyn (which I always intend to do.) The thought of saying that you need 200-500k to raise a family seems rediculous to me. -
Subject: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
I think it's a mistake to define middle class in terms of lifestyle and possessions rather than income/wealth/means. "Middle class" is not a measure of how comfortably you live; it is a measure of what means you have compared with the average.
"Middle class" people are those clustered within a range of the average income in a geographic area. (If you want, maybe you can/should factor in household wealth as well.) You can argue about how wide that range should be: maybe it should be the middle third? maybe the middle half (i.e., the 25% on either side of the mean)? But if you make it too wide, the term is meaningless -- if almost everybody is "middle class," nobody is. Likewise, if you define "Middle class" as basically the 80th or 90th percentile of income in an area ("You need 200K to lead a middle-class family life in NYC," e.g.,), then your definition is patently ridiculous. The middle can't be 85% of the way to the top.
The problem is, too many people define "middle-class" as "having all the stuff I'd have if I lived somewhere where life wasn't so hard." That's why you have so many well-compensated NY yuppies, with incomes high above the average in NYC, whining that they're barely middle-class if that. "Because my brother-in-law in Minnesota has this big house, and he makes half what I do! JEEEZ!"
It's misleading, for instance, to set home-ownership as the standard for middle-class life in NYC. Two-thirds of people in NYC rent. If you own a family-sized home, you are already likely pushing the limits of the middle-class in NYC -- especially if you've bought recently or in a neighborhood in any way desirable. If you're average in NYC, you rent, and you have significantly less space than you want.
The way I see it, if you're within the third or so of the population nearest the average income, you're middle-class. Personally, owning a house and with a household income of $150 or 160K, probably, I'm at least upper-middle class. The fact that people in the rest of America have more on less money, or that the rich in Manhattan are so super-rich, has nothing to do with it. -
Well, to use myself as an example, my wife and I pull down $200-300k between us (these are gross dollars, unfortunately everyone charges in the net kind), and I would call us middle class. A few things:
1) We don't have a car. We wouldn't use it enough to make it worth the trouble.
2) Private school is a killer. I thought I would dodge that bullet and then the kid got accepted a fairly decent one. Then I lost the argument. Wah.
3) We eat out and travel a bit, nothing too crazy. That might be winding down on account of the school stuff.
4) We bought awhile ago and have a relatively reasonable mortgage/maintainence. Couldn't do it if we were coming into the neighborhood now.
All I can say is if I were in Maine, I would be King of the World! But here...well, draw your own conclusions... -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
linusvanpelt wrote: The way I see it, if you're within the third or so of the population nearest the average income, you're middle-class. Personally, owning a house and with a household income of $150 or 160K, probably, I'm at least upper-middle class. The fact that people in the rest of America have more on less money, or that the rich in Manhattan are so super-rich, has nothing to do with it.
I think the recent NY Times article on class stated that in NY a family income of over 100k was middle class. I can say that my husband and I own a home, own a car, make well over 100k combined and we are STRUGGLING with two kids. We don't take elaborate vacations, we eat out occasionally, we don't buy a lot. The money just GOES. Childcare is expensive, classes for the kids are expensive, and I don't know where the money goes. So you are upper middle class in the rest of America but I believe the NY Times gives New York city a much different income criteria. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
kensingtonmom wrote: I think the recent NY Times article on class stated that in NY a family income of over 100k was middle class. I can say that my husband and I own a home, own a car, make well over 100k combined and we are STRUGGLING with two kids. We don't take elaborate vacations, we eat out occasionally, we don't buy a lot. The money just GOES. Childcare is expensive, classes for the kids are expensive, and I don't know where the money goes. So you are upper middle class in the rest of America but I believe the NY Times gives New York city a much different income criteria.
Of course the Times does. It's run by journalists making around $100K or less, on average, a year, whose college roommates are out making millions as lawyers and hedge fund managers. They're squarely in the how-can-you-say-I'm-not-middle-class-my-life-is-so-hard-JEEEZ demographic. The fact is, 100K is not an average household income in NYC -- average is somewhere around half that.
If you define middle class so that about 75% of your population is below middle class, what kind of "middle" is that? And what does it do for the sense of social responsibility of those who are there, up above 3/4 of their neighbors?
Simply put, the middle class in NYC--people of average means--do not live very well or comfortably. That's tough, but that doesn't make them any less middle class. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
linusvanpelt wrote: Simply put, the middle class in NYC--people of average means--do not live very well or comfortably. That's tough, but that doesn't make them any less middle class.
But I think they mean middle class defined by lifestyle and not the median income? -
this is a quote from http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/04/29/nyc_has_9th_highest_income_in_country.php
NYC Has 9th Highest Income in Country
According to the latest figures from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, New York City ranks as the 9th highest per capita income in the country. The metro (NYC, northern NJ, and Long Island) NYC region's average salary is $40,899, vs. the national average of $31,472. The NY Post makes a point of saying how "New Yorkers are way behind their neighbors to the northwest in the stately suburbs surrounding Stamford, Conn., whose $60,803 per capita income was tops in the nation." Oh, please, everyone knows that's where the i bankers with families move. San Francisco is second, with a salary of just over $46,000, while southern Jersey is 7th. What Gothamist finds funny about stats like these is that people suddenly worry, "Hey, why isn't my city making more?" but there are probably lots of salary not being reported. We're going to try to dig around for more info, as we couldn't find the exact report. And it's not like anyone's beating down a path to Stamford. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=linusvanpelt]Simply put, the middle class in NYC--people of average means--do not live very well or comfortably. That's tough, but that doesn't make them any less middle class.
But I think they mean middle class defined by lifestyle and not the median income?
You're probably right. To me, though, that kind of definition ends up being pretty subjective and not very useful... which is part of the reason almost everyone in America thinks they're middle class. (It's also how, conversely, you get this screwed up valuation system in which "middle class" defines a lifestyle unaffordable to the actual middle of the population discussed.)
Another thing that occured to me. You mentioned that somebody of my (and I'm guessing your) income status would be upper middle class in the rest of America, but not in NYC. I would argue, though, that the fact that we live in NYC is in itself a material asset--both tangible and intangible--that affects our class status. Location, location, location, as they say.
Your average middle class American would probably not move to where we live because it would break them financially. Intangibly, living in NYC, having immediate access to so many of its sights, resources and cultural assets, is something of literal value. Add to that owning a house, as you and I do. Even if you sometimes wonder if it's so much more worth it than Philadelphia or Portland or Ithaca or whatever, that's also subjective: the fact is, in the objective eyes of the market, it is worth more.
You may just barely pay the bills in your Kensington house, but owning that house and the equity in it--which is entirely a function of its location--gives you assets and options that a middle-class person in Middle America does not have. Just from your description of your situation, I am guessing that if you sold your house and moved, you would have what, a half million or more of profit? However straitened your day-to-day is, that gives you real financial options, should you move and relocate, that a middle-class person selling a bigger house in, say, Indanapolis, would never have. That has to count something for your class status.
In other words, simply owning a house in NYC proper -- something, again, most New Yorkers cannot afford -- is a significant boost up on the class ladder, even if it doesn't feel like it when you're paying your credit card bill. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
linusvanpelt wrote: You may just barely pay the bills in your Kensington house, but owning that house and the equity in it--which is entirely a function of its location--gives you assets and options that a middle-class person in Middle America does not have. Just from your description of your situation, I am guessing that if you sold your house and moved, you would have what, a half million or more of profit? However straitened your day-to-day is, that gives you real financial options, should you move and relocate, that a middle-class person selling a bigger house in, say, Indanapolis, would never have. That has to count something for your class status.
I think you are totally right--owning a house in NY is definitely becomeing impossible for the middle class--which is why I do think it is getting harder for people to pull themselves up the economic ladder. And defining middle class is problemmatic.
And one of the self-absorbed things I have wondered about terrorism is that besides the trauma, besides worrying about the people I love or just strangers enduring some horrible senseless death--I also on a petty level wonder, do we cash in on our bigggest asset which would make us comfortable in another city before real estate loses value in NY if there is another terrorist attack? I am not saying these are noble thoughts by any means--totally base and selfish. Of course, I have never gone beyond wondering obviously but it is true, below the day to day struggle of cash flow, is equity in an overvalued house. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
kensingtonmom wrote: And one of the self-absorbed things I have wondered about terrorism is that besides the trauma, besides worrying about the people I love or just strangers enduring some horrible senseless death--I also on a petty level wonder, do we cash in on our bigggest asset which would make us comfortable in another city before real estate loses value in NY if there is another terrorist attack? I am not saying these are noble thoughts by any means--totally base and selfish....
I don't think it's noble or selfish, just practical. My hunch, though it is nothing more than a hunch, is that the next terrorist attack will have a greater effect on real estate prices than the last one, even if fewer people die. (1) the market is higher so it's primed for a drop anyway, (2) I feel the second attack will perversely have a bigger psychological effect because people are more fixated on terrorism now, whereas the first came out of the blue... i.e., people are more primed to be terrorized now, whereas there was a numbing, shocking effect the first time.
Hope I'm wrong, and the thought of it is not going to make me sell, but either way it's a perfectly reasonable thing for someone to consider if you're thinking about moving anyway.
But again, the fact that you could even think about selling your house and maybe buying a new place, somewhere very nice, for all cash... how many "middle class" people out there in the USA could do that? -
I'd say the two most costly items that differentiate the middle class in NYC from the middle class everywhere else are:
- cost of housing and
- eating/drinking out often as a social activity. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
linusvanpelt wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom][quote=linusvanpelt]Simply put, the middle class in NYC--people of average means--do not live very well or comfortably. That's tough, but that doesn't make them any less middle class.
But I think they mean middle class defined by lifestyle and not the median income?
You're probably right. To me, though, that kind of definition ends up being pretty subjective and not very useful... which is part of the reason almost everyone in America thinks they're middle class. (It's also how, conversely, you get this screwed up valuation system in which "middle class" defines a lifestyle unaffordable to the actual middle of the population discussed.)
This is a much clearer way of putting what I was trying to stay with my golden bidet comment above. Having grown up, I think, solidly middle class, and then gone to a college where I met a large number of really wealthy people, there are few things I find more annoying than people who assert that they 'just don't know how they could get by' without certain lifestyle accoutrements or with less than a certain large amount of money. I think the people who say these things believe it makes them sound discerning or sophisticated, but in reality it mostly makes them sound patronizing towards people who actually are middle class. That's why I think defining middle class by lifestyle is a rather silly proposition. It allows the idea of middle class to be defined by each person's idea of their own "needs," which might include two ski trips a year, private school, and golden bidets.
Nationally, according to the 2004 census, the median household income was just short of $44,500. Herewe see a chart showing that for 2004, an income of $88,030 would put a household in the top quintile (fifth). It's definitely fair to skew the numbers up to account for the cost of living in NYC, but even then, I think an average middle class income would have fewer than six digits.
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