What Is Middle Class In NYC?
Comments
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As several people alluded to, the kids factor is gigantic. I've made between $40-$80K over the past 5-7 years, and have frankly lived pretty luxuriously. I've traveled, eaten out several days a week, gone to shows, gone to nice restaurants, gone clothes shopping, and have still had money left over to save a pretty good nest egg. I definitely never felt like I was depriving myself of anything, and I didn't make anywhere near the figures people are tossing around. Oh, and when I was in the higher end of that range I was married and my wife was in school with little to no income, so you can cut that figure in half. But frankly we lived pretty comfortably.
But the catch: no kids. Throw kids into the mix, and you better be upper class if you're thinking about private schools. Public schools will save you a fortune, but there are still health care costs and a million others that become a burden. Still, I think a lot of people think you need $200K+ just to "survive" because their definition of survival is seriously warped. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
EmilyM wrote: I think, solidly middle class, and then gone to a college where I met a large number of really wealthy people, there are few things I find more annoying than people who assert that they 'just don't know how they could get by' without certain lifestyle accoutrements or with less than a certain large amount of money. I think the people who say these things believe it makes them sound discerning or sophisticated, but in reality it mostly makes them sound patronizing towards people who actually are middle class.
I have discovered everyone's definition of "broke" is different--especially here where there is a lot of serious money. I sometimes want to laugh (or scream) when my friend complains about the cost of childcare because she MIGHT HAVE TO DIP into the principle of her trust fund--this said to me as she packs for a month vacation in Italy!
I can just say personally we do not have a lot of extras in our life. Is cable a luxury? O.K. we have cable. But we do own our house and as Linusvanpelt said, that is a big asset that in reality should put us above middle class outiside of New York. All I can say is that children are expensive and I never noticed being broke until we had kids. I guess childcare, health insurance, uhm? diapers, new shoes and clothes for the kids, heating bills? I don't even know where the money goes?? Certainly not in vacations of any sort in the past couple years or expensive clothes or vacations?? -
Stop the whining!
Here's a couple of many articles to give you a reality check - jeezus you are not the only demograhic in a city of 8 million people. If you earn over 100K you are in a very upper percentage! Make sure to read the Bur of Labor Stats below.
http://www.bls.gov/ro2/qcew9310.htm
Pays (well) to work in Manhattan (August 2005)
BY ROBERT F. MOORE and HELEN KENNEDY
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
People who work in Manhattan have a higher average salary - $73,000 a year - than any other county in the U.S., new census figures show.
But you didn't have to tell working-class Manhattanites that the lofty number is skewed by the mammoth annual salaries that Wall Street bigwigs and other high rollers pull down.
"Wouldn't it be nice if we all had $73,000?" said John Lennox, 42, who was sweeping the sidewalk in front of a Chelsea building. "That is a lot of money."
Jessie Harris, busily scratching away at a lottery ticket in Harlem, could only dream of $73,000. "That's a whole lot of money," said the 54-year-old grandmother. "I'm a security guard, and I make less than $20,000. I guess I can see it, though. I see people buying entire buildings in Harlem and pricing people out. It's depressing."
The census list shows the metro area remains a mecca for business, with six spots on the list of America's top 30 counties with the most companies: Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester.
The Bronx and Staten Island didn't make the census list, which is based on 2003 data.
There are 103,000 businesses in Manhattan, employing 2 million people. Only Los Angeles and Chicago have more businesses and employees.
Businesses in Brooklyn pay an average of $32,407. In Queens, it's $36,050.
The only other U.S. county with an average over $60,000 was Santa Clara, Calif., better known as Silicon Valley, where the average salary is $63,704.
Maybe it's the high rents, but New Yorkers aren't too good at spreading the wealth.
According to the Catalogue for Philanthropy, which publishes an annual "generosity index," New York's rich rank 33rd in the nation for giving to charity.
"What I like to say is, 'There's room for improvement,'" said Marty Cohn, spokesman for the Boston-based philanthropy group. -
Subject: Re: Everybody Thinks They're Middle Class
kensingtonmom wrote:
Amen KM -
I can just say personally we do not have a lot of extras in our life. Is cable a luxury? O.K. we have cable. But we do own our house and as Linusvanpelt said, that is a big asset that in reality should put us above middle class outiside of New York. All I can say is that children are expensive and I never noticed being broke until we had kids. I guess childcare, health insurance, uhm? diapers, new shoes and clothes for the kids, heating bills? I don't even know where the money goes?? Certainly not in vacations of any sort in the past couple years or expensive clothes or vacations??
My husband and I combined make less than $85,00 a year - I dont know if I would consider myself middle class so much as "working class" - and working class to me is:
You only have one pension and that is through your job. You pray that SS will not run out becuase - IRA - hell thats my office's account's name
There is no way you could afford your lifestyle on one income.
A vacation to Europe is what you save up for to do on your 25th wedding anniversary (I have never even been to the West Coast
)
You pretty much live hand to mouth to make ends meet.
You must work overtime for all the little "extras" you want (like that dinner at Peter Lugers :twisted:
You only take a vacation somewhere besides Brooklyn if you get a nice tax return check.
As far as kids go. My son will never go to private school (unless on a scholarship) It is totally impossible for me to pay for. If he gets accepted in to some sort of prestigious one I would have to take a second job - which I do on occasions.
I buy clothes for my older nephews with my son in mind because they all get handed down
If you dont have dental insurance say goodbye to any extra $$ you have - I go to the NYU School of Dentristy to have my work done.
You use credit cards because you feel like you bust your ass and deserve something nice every now and then and then it takes you 3 years to pay off that $1500 debt.
We own our home but only because we were able to get it for less than what the market rate and an FHA loan because we would not have been able to put 10% down.
We spend more money on LOTTO hoping we hit it big
Basically I am paper rich and cash poor but I am very happy because I do have more than others I just have to work a little harder to maintain it. I am doing better than my mother did at my age and I know my son will have it a little better than myself. -
Livetotravel wrote: Stop the whining!
No offense, but that is a sure way to end a discussion--by taking the righteous stance of the scolder. It is kind of like when your mother would say to you--Honey, look at you, at least you have two legs and your eyesight. You could be a blind leper living in isolation on an island off the coast of Greece! Be grateful for what you have!
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I don't think ANYONE on this thread is not aware that there are MANY MANY people in MUCH MUCH worse financial positions then anyone on this board who has the leisure (and the computer) to be writing on a forum. But that being said, I think it is an interesting question: what is middle class and what is it in New York? How much "luxury" do you buy or give up and still are middle class in this city? What "luxuries" do we now consider necessities (i.e. cable and internet). And how much $$ do you need to get by? How much debt are people carrying to get by? -
Stacey, the one great thing you can say is that you own your own home. That's wealth that you can then pass on from one generation to the next and also can help to sustain you in your retirement.
Also, don't play Lotto, for god's sakes. :? -
escap wrote: Stacey, the one great thing you can say is that you own your own home. That's wealth that you can then pass on from one generation to the next and also can help to sustain you in your retirement.
LOL You gotta be in it to win it though
Also, don't play Lotto, for god's sakes. :? -
The penultimate question - "How much debt are people carrying?"
kensingtonmom poses the right question - in order to support certain instant-gratification tendencies what's the debt load of these 200-500K earners?
If it's anything like what's happening all over this country, then it is enormous and unmanageable. And for savings or thoughts of retirement -
fagettaboutit!
The other question is what is the quality of your life? Income means nada if you are financially trapped. -
I used to read the Urban Baby forums and there were always these discussions where some people would insist that you needed at least a couple of million a year to raise a family and others would claim they were raising a family of four in Manhattan on $50K a year and it was perfectly easy, blah blah blah.
I agree it is an interesting discussion and "stop whining" doesn't really add much to it. I think we all know we are doing much better than the vast majority of the people in this world.
I never thought of "middle class" as being defined as the median income but as a lifestyle -- the house, the car, a summer vacation, being able to send the kids to college, a new TV once in a while.
I made very little money as a lowly editorial assistant back when I was single and I was very frugal, stayed out of debt, and even managed to buy new clothes once in a while and even take vacations. Raising children is amazingly expensive. Some of it might be optional -- maybe. Are braces optional? Summer camp? Afterschool activities so your 10-year-old doesn't come home to an empty house every day?
Summer camp, whether it's day camp or sleepaway, can set you back thousands of dollars. I know someone will say, "Camp is optional; in my day, we didn't go to camp, we played stickball in the streets and we liked it," but I just can't see letting my preteen roam around in the streets all summer, even if he had someone to hang out with, which he wouldn't, because all his friends are away or at camp. So he'd sit home and watch TV for two months -- no good. And he'd eat junk food all day and get fat, and I know you all hate fat kids.
Clothing -- they grow -- you need to replace their whole wardrobe at least once a year. Plus coats, shoes, snowboots, hats, and so on. School supplies. It never ends, and meanwhile you're always conscious that you're supposed to be saving money to send them to college. :shock: -
I guess my husband and I are upper-middle class, according to the long thread of discussion above me. We make enough to pay rent on our PH 1-BR in a nice building. We save a tiny bit, we eat out sometimes, we carry no debt besides my student loans. I have a 401(k) that I put 6% into (plus a pension!), and my husband contributes regularly to his IRA. Unfortunately, we spend quite a bit in plane tickets to see our families in VT and FL - my siblings keep having babies in the fall! - and can't see any way cheaper of getting out of it. Outside of the plane tickets, we never really spend money on much besides bills, rent, the occasional new pair of work pants, and our retirement accounts.
Given all this, we've still had an extremely difficult time saving a big nest egg in order to buy a home. This is compunded by neither of us really wanting to live somewhere like north Westchester, Staten Island or the boonies of Forest Hills or Riverdale (for example). Compunding this is that any homes that we can afford somewhere like north Westchester (when we attempt to reconsider the "no boonies" edict) usually involve places where double purchases of commuter rail passes kill our budget to the point of impossibility! Neither one of us really wants to be a pioneer and live somewhere scary and rough. Yes, we know that makes us snobs but so be it. We both did enough of that in our 20's. However; at our current rate of actual savings, we'll be saving for another 15-20 years in order to get 20% down for a co-op and cannot afford the condos for sale, well, anywhere.
All this adds up to my husband and I making good salaries but also definitely feeling that we're not quite the bling-flashing sorts that our incomes would suggest.
Sorry. Sore subject.
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something that complicates the discussion of "middle-class" in this country, i think, is the halo of authenticity assigned to the middle class by politicians, TV, movies.... Instead of being a specific income level, ala linus's description, or even a specific way of living or collection of appliances, middle-class has come to stand for being hard-working, deserving, regular, salt of the earth folk.
most people don't want to claim to be poor, but people don't want to claim to be rich either, because we know from movies and stump speeches that rich people are greedy, undeserving, and either stupid or "elite", depending on who's doing the vilifying. we all want to be just folk, the hero of the story, the ones the politicians say are the heart of america, the good guys. who wouldn't? (just ask the "middle class girl" i know who's always had servants and who knows my neighborhood because her father owned the buildings across from the bbg; she'll sit in her beautiful upper east side apt and assure you she's not at all rich.)
so of course there's some confusion about what it is to be middle class; the words are too loaded. and authenticity, whatever that means, is a powerful drug for a nation of immigrants. -
escap wrote: Still, I think a lot of people think you need $200K+ just to "survive" because their definition of survival is seriously warped.
totally agree. with that much money. i could own park slope in a few years with right investments. but thats a diffrent story. any also agree dont buy them lotto tickets man its to scam people!!!! -
sweet tea wrote: people don't want to claim to be rich either
I totally agree with your post.
However, I look forward to being the exception to the above statement. I very much hope to be able to claim richness someday.
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escap wrote: [quote=sweet tea]people don't want to claim to be rich either
I totally agree with your post.
However, I look forward to being the exception to the above statement. I very much hope to be able to claim richness someday.
hey if you got rich and didnt stab or step over people to do it . hey show it off!!! -
sweet tea wrote: most people don't want to claim to be poor, but people don't want to claim to be rich either, because we know from movies and stump speeches that rich people are greedy, undeserving, and either stupid or "elite", depending on who's doing the vilifying.
I think people very much like to claim to be rich--they might gripe about the cost of childcare but in the same breath they will talk about their $400 haircut or trip to Bliss or whatever. I think there will always be Donald Trump's in the world who want to flaunt it on various levels--from ostentatious to subtle--but the message is delivered, "i am rich". Parents flaunt the name of private schools that cost $18,000 a year, people buy designer shoes or bags that will brand them a member of the tribe. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=sweet tea]most people don't want to claim to be poor, but people don't want to claim to be rich either, because we know from movies and stump speeches that rich people are greedy, undeserving, and either stupid or "elite", depending on who's doing the vilifying.
I think people very much like to claim to be rich--they might gripe about the cost of childcare but in the same breath they will talk about their $400 haircut or trip to Bliss or whatever. I think there will always be Donald Trump's in the world who want to flaunt it on various levels--from ostentatious to subtle--but the message is delivered, "i am rich". Parents flaunt the name of private schools that cost $18,000 a year, people buy designer shoes or bags that will brand them a member of the tribe.
oh, i don't mean that people don't like to talk about their acquisitions, or even, depending on the person, their income. i only meant that the same people will claim to be "middle-class", no matter the evidence to the contrary. -
Bath Beach is a ghetto? When did that happen? I was over there on Sunday...didn't seem like a ghetto to me. Its not all Italian anymore, but still...
Bath Beach is the area between 86 st. and the water, from around 14th ave. and 20th ave.armchair_warrior wrote: he owns a house, lives in bath beach. its a nice area. unlike most ghettos. crime isnt high. like i said it amazes me how people live on so little with so much money. yet comunities like mines could live on so much with so little money.
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Carol Street wrote: Bath Beach is a ghetto? When did that happen? I was over there on Sunday...didn't seem like a ghetto to me. Its not all Italian anymore, but still...
its not a ghetto. most people think other parts of brooklyn or nyc for that matter is all ghettos since its where all the "none" middle class people live
Bath Beach is the area between 86 st. and the water, from around 14th ave. and 20th ave.
[quote=armchair_warrior]he owns a house, lives in bath beach. its a nice area. unlike most ghettos. crime isnt high. like i said it amazes me how people live on so little with so much money. yet comunities like mines could live on so much with so little money.
must be a ghetto. 30k outside of the yuppie and hipster areas would get you nice living just like the rest of usa. just people in nyc arent willing to travel more than half hr to work from the train. -
armchair_warrior wrote: 30k outside of the yuppie and hipster areas would get you nice living just like the rest of usa. just people in nyc arent willing to travel more than half hr to work from the train.
That always frustrates me, as I'm willing to but my husband isn't. They tell me marriage is compromise... -
meganlibrarian wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]30k outside of the yuppie and hipster areas would get you nice living just like the rest of usa. just people in nyc arent willing to travel more than half hr to work from the train.
That always frustrates me, as I'm willing to but my husband isn't. They tell me marriage is compromise...
i think you miss the girls guide to ruling the world!!!
when people say marriage is a compromise they mean the guys have to accept the new realities of life 
. get his ass into those nabes! -
armchair_warrior wrote:
You're single and without children, right? And even with your preposterous claims to being able to buy all of PS on $100k or whatever you basically don't have a fucking clue about the real world. Get up out of your armchair and smell the coffee. Read back through the posts and see what people say about adding kids into the mix. Do a little homework, find out what childcare costs. Realize that a lot of parents (unfortunately usually Moms) end up staying home because a $30k salary doesn't cover most of that and then start to do the math with one $30k salary covering a couple of adults and a couple of kids. That is NOT middle class.
its not a ghetto. most people think other parts of brooklyn or nyc for that matter is all ghettos since its where all the "none" middle class people live must be a ghetto. 30k outside of the yuppie and hipster areas would get you nice living just like the rest of usa. just people in nyc arent willing to travel more than half hr to work from the train.
FWIW this isn't personal but you are way off base on this topic. -
prusik wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]
You're single and without children, right? And even with your preposterous claims to being able to buy all of PS on $100k or whatever you basically don't have a fucking clue about the real world. Get up out of your armchair and smell the coffee. Read back through the posts and see what people say about adding kids into the mix. Do a little homework, find out what childcare costs. Realize that a lot of parents (unfortunately usually Moms) end up staying home because a $30k salary doesn't cover most of that and then start to do the math with one $30k salary covering a couple of adults and a couple of kids. That is NOT middle class.
its not a ghetto. most people think other parts of brooklyn or nyc for that matter is all ghettos since its where all the "none" middle class people live must be a ghetto. 30k outside of the yuppie and hipster areas would get you nice living just like the rest of usa. just people in nyc arent willing to travel more than half hr to work from the train.
FWIW this isn't personal but you are way off base on this topic.
oh i understand the real world very well. i was being sarcastic on people who claim they cant live on 100k or 200 k what ever.
with 200k i could start a small business and probably generate alot of dough enough to cover the start up in a year or two. -
armchair_warrior wrote: with 200k i could start a small business and probably generate alot of dough enough to cover the start up in a year or two.
Sounds like a lay-up. Since I presume it's no problem to guarantee our principal we oughta start a pool here... :idea: -
So it seems from the other thread that groceries for a family of four averages about $10,000/year (not including any take out). My 3/4 time child care is about $25,000/year (so there goes $35,000 right there without rent, mortgage, heat, health insurance, life insurance [if you have kids], car insurance or gas or subway, taxes, telephone, internet, entertainment??, dental....you get the picture).
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KM, this is off the subject, but why don't you just register, instead of always signing in as a guest? (sorry if you've addressed this in other threads)
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escap wrote: KM, this is off the subject, but why don't you just register, instead of always signing in as a guest? (sorry if you've addressed this in other threads)
she has already. she just doesnt sign in :P. -
Drano wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior] with 200k i could start a small business and probably generate alot of dough enough to cover the start up in a year or two.
Sounds like a lay-up. Since I presume it's no problem to guarantee our principal we oughta start a pool here... :idea:
wanna go the legit or none legit route. hehe legit is slower about a year or two. -
escap wrote: KM, this is off the subject, but why don't you just register, instead of always signing in as a guest? (sorry if you've addressed this in other threads)
Two words: double strollers.
Ever since I elicited such anger and hostility on a double stroller debate, I haven't wanted to register. I (probably paranoid) felt ganged up on and didn't want to have an email posted where anyone could send emails to my house. IN the end, since everyone uses pseudonyms anyway, I guess I didn't see what the benefit was to me or the group to register. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=escap]KM, this is off the subject, but why don't you just register, instead of always signing in as a guest? (sorry if you've addressed this in other threads)
Two words: double strollers.
Ever since I elicited such anger and hostility on a double stroller debate, I haven't wanted to register. I (probably paranoid) felt ganged up on and didn't want to have an email posted where anyone could send emails to my house. IN the end, since everyone uses pseudonyms anyway, I guess I didn't see what the benefit was to me or the group to register.
i swear you were register like with a acount sometimes back. must be me hollucinating. -
kensingtonmom wrote: Two words: double strollers.
Even if you put fill out the email address on your profile, no one can see it... they can send to it, but only by clicking on a link - it's sent through the site server, not through the email account of the sender... and in any event, you don't even need to fill out the email address on your profile - just an email address for the account confirmation.... which, of course, none of the regular users has access to...
Ever since I elicited such anger and hostility on a double stroller debate, I haven't wanted to register. I (probably paranoid) felt ganged up on and didn't want to have an email posted where anyone could send emails to my house. IN the end, since everyone uses pseudonyms anyway, I guess I didn't see what the benefit was to me or the group to register.
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