Roughly 97% of parking spaces in NYC are free.
Comments
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Boygabriel said:
I don't know why we're talking about a bike delivery guy.*I* and many other public, tax-paying citizens traveling via vehicle use the Kent Ave bike lane at all hours.
It is a public road.
Private parking for a private business isn't even in the same realm as this, let alone a reasonable alternative for the land use.
We're not talking about temporary loading or unloading for business, or the three parking places that some hotels and apt buildings claim out front. We're talking about stretches of road for a damn restaurant parking lot?
Give me a break.
A person's parked car is just as "private" a use of public space as someone on a bike. In either case it's public space being designated for a use that is only relevant to a small part of the population. The subjective difference is that you agree with bike usage on public streets, but disagree w/car parking on public streets.
Because guess what... all the cars parked on commercial streets are "turning public space into private parking lots" too. The difference w/this restaurant being that their usage of public space was illegal, and thus should be dealt with accordingly. However, the objective legitimacy of the usage of roadways for private parking or private cycling are not worlds apart.
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(you) disagree w/car parking on public streets.
No, I don't. Another dumb mischaracterization of my position. At this point I can only assume you do it on purpose or due to laziness.
Either way: not helpful.
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Folks seem to be really upset that this was a Valet company using the spots. I must say I picked it as an example, simply because I came across it on Gothamist.
While I agree (under present law) they should have been ticketed, I don't this example is completely off base in showing that there are situations in which bike lanes may be best used in a flexible manner that allows parking.
For simplicity, let's imagine that patrons of local businesses decided to park their car in the bike lanes. If done well, I think bikers and pedestrians could gain FAR MORE SPACE than they have already.
We have made enough progress that the politicians and DOT now allow avenues in Manhattan, the Bronx River Parkway, and Vanderbuilt to be "flexibly used" to allow for no cars.
...you do know I am not going to be the first to propose that bike lanes be similarly flexible, right?
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Yes, I'm particularly irked by a restaurant claiming public land for their customers. I'd be pissed if they claimed street parking spots or the turn lane in front of the restaurant (funny how they didn't use that turn lane, huh?)
Anyway-
You do understand hesitation bike advocates might have at *already* being asked to make bike lanes flexible, as the current ratio of road space to bike lanes is 100:1, and that's only after a very recent effort by the city over the past 5 years or so (note: bikes have been used in the city for approximately 80,000 years).
you know?
In a theoretical idealized situation, yes, everyone must be willing to make sacrifices and be flexible when reasonable.
But on the practical level, is it already time to start asking major bike arteries to be occasionally converted back to space for cars?
Probably not.
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What you perceive a major artery, the majority may perceive as a green painted, wasted strip of asphalt.
especially in the winter
or at night.
Perhaps you could come with some use for the spaces during those times that was non-car?
Think about lending the space to residential and commercial trash, my friend.
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Boygabriel said:
(you) disagree w/car parking on public streets.
No, I don't. Another dumb mischaracterization of my position. At this point I can only assume you do it on purpose or due to laziness.
Either way: not helpful.
So as whynot suggested, would you be open to said restaurant renting out that section of bike lane on busy nights? Or are bike lanes untouchable? The only issue with said usage is that it wasn't legal, and IIRC the restaurant was appropriately ticketed.
You said on the prior page that eventually bike lanes will go from partial to complete usership (utilization). I disagree. I know professional bikers ranging from cyclists to messengers who stay inside during the winter. Even the most "hardcore" bikers only use bike lanes for a fraction of the year, whereas people park cars year round. Even if bikers chose to ride through the winter, they'd be subjecting themselves to potentially serious injuries due to perpetually icy conditions. So I don't see why bike lanes can't or shouldn't be modular/seasonal.
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whynot_31 said:
I don't this example is completely off base in showing that there are situations in which bike lanes may be best used in a flexible manner that allows parking.Again, while 'flexible,' may increase usage, it also creates confusion and that's the last thing that you want when you're in the vulnerable position of mixing it up with automobiles. This does not change whether it's bike lanes that allow for parking during certain times or, even if the proposal were the other way around, traffic lanes that are bike only during certain times.
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So "protect" the bike lanes from cars during low use periods with trash.
Imagine the support you would get from the "common man" if they could walk down a clean sidewalk, unclogged with trashbags.
Even in the dense areas, residential trash is only picked up twice a week.
Commercial trash is picked up every night.
...we've trained them to sort their trash, could this be harder?
BTW, I think I see some nipple in photo I posted above.
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A bike lane is a road used by a vehicle for exercise, commuting, commerce, congestion reduction and traffic calming reasons.
A bike lane's value is not a fleeting concept, only relevant the moments of a day that there is bike tire rubber on green-painted asphalt.
That's not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
Almost nobody drives down my street between midnight and 6 am.
Can I block off the road and have quiet street parties every night? There are still another 5999 miles of road for drivers to use elsewhere in the city.
When it snows 12" or more can I go sledding on the BQE, since it's too dangerous for people to be driving anyway?
Get it?
Like highways and roads, bike lanes aren't just segments of asphalt to be evaluated in 1/8th of a mile or 60 minute segments of time, or as your anecdotal experiences with bikers dictate.
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BG-
I hope someday the majority of the people someday understand the bike lane as you do....but I fear you may be -at best- an early adopter.
Reducing our city's reliance on the automobile will be a painful, gradual thing.
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Boygabriel, the problem is you want it both ways. If bikes are just another transportation option, then bike lanes aren't necessary as bikes can legally use any portion of the existing street grid for transportation. If bikes are somehow different enough that a separate transportation system is necessary, then evaluations must be made of the level of usage to determine where bike lanes should run, when they should be operational etc.
Why shouldn't we be asking if there are other uses for this valuable real estate during times when they are underutilized in the same way that the determination was made to have street fairs or closures during the summer of roadways to bring more foot traffic and commerce to local businesses? In my mind, if we can close Vanderbilt Avenue to car traffic once a week during the summer, then we can discuss closing bike lanes during the winter when fewer people ride on them or late at night or sharing them with trash two days a week, etc.
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I hear you, but I'm also encouraged by polling, and by slowly shifting attitudes in our city and this country.
I'm also encouraged by forward-thinking leaders and elected officials who have the courage to push us forward and deal with some our biggest, most ignored problems.
As generations shift, so too do lifestyles and values.
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homeowner said:
Boygabriel, the problem is you want it both ways. If bikes are just another transportation option, then bike lanes aren't necessary as bikes can legally use any portion of the existing street grid for transportation. If bikes are somehow different enough that a separate transportation system is necessary, then evaluations must be made of the level of usage to determine where bike lanes should run, when they should be operational etc.Why shouldn't we be asking if there are other uses for this valuable real estate during times when they are underutilized in the same way that the determination was made to have street fairs or closures during the summer of roadways to bring more foot traffic and commerce to local businesses? In my mind, if we can close Vanderbilt Avenue to car traffic once a week during the summer, then we can discuss closing bike lanes during the winter when fewer people ride on them or late at night or sharing them with trash two days a week, etc.
Should we open the discussion to allow cars to drive on the sidewalks at night?
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homeowner said:
Boygabriel, the problem is you want it both ways. If bikes are just another transportation option, then bike lanes aren't necessary as bikes can legally use any portion of the existing street grid for transportation. If bikes are somehow different enough that a separate transportation system is necessary, then evaluations must be made of the level of usage to determine where bike lanes should run, when they should be operational etc.No, the problem is that you guys are trying to treat this as some black & white issue where somehow, through logic games, we're going to figure out whether bike lanes are legitimate, or whether there's some singular, objective standard by which all public space use can be completely determined.
The truth is that it's a complicated, ongoing discussion. City-wide. Sometime use-per-person-per-squarefoot is the metric. Sometimes it's "what's acceptable for the widest number of people?". Sometimes it's "what future problems are we going to face, can we mitigate them now?".
Why shouldn't we be asking if there are other uses for this valuable real estate during times when they are underutilized in the same way that the determination was made to have street fairs or closures during the summer of roadways to bring more foot traffic and commerce to local businesses? In my mind, if we can close Vanderbilt Avenue to car traffic once a week during the summer, then we can discuss closing bike lanes during the winter when fewer people ride on them or late at night or sharing them with trash two days a week, etc.
Yes, like I just said to WN, and I will repeat as often as you'd like me to: in theory everyone has to be flexible.
However there are 500 miles of bike lanes over the whole city. Cars have 6,000 miles of road to use over the same area, and a high percentage of that to park on.
Also, bike networks only function when they're interconnected and can offer people ways to efficiently traverse the city.
So, on a practical level, is it really time to start discussing rolling back the bike network that's still very much in progress and was just begun (by historical standards)?
Um, maybe? At best?
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Boygabriel said:
A bike lane is a road used by a vehicle for exercise, commuting, commerce, congestion reduction and traffic calming reasons.A bike lane's value is not a fleeting concept, only relevant the moments of a day that there is bike tire rubber on green-painted asphalt.
That's not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
Almost nobody drives down my street between midnight and 6 am.
Can I block off the road and have quiet street parties every night? There are still another 5999 miles of road for drivers to use elsewhere in the city.
When it snows 12" or more can I go sledding on the BQE, since it's too dangerous for people to be driving anyway?
Get it?
Like highways and roads, bike lanes aren't just segments of asphalt to be evaluated in 1/8th of a mile or 60 minute segments of time, or as your anecdotal experiences with bikers dictate.
The problem with your analogy is nobody, or close to nobody is looking to use said spaces as you propose. There are a couple million car owners who would indeed like to utilize the space appropriated for bike lanes- as they have been for decades, and as the city has partially been designed to accommodate and take advantage of through metering. Much of your arguments fall apart during the off-times of bike lanes; i.e. a bike lane most likely exacerbates congestion problems during off seasons by taking up road space that could have been used for more car lanes.
A modular approach would enable a compromise that would best serve everyone. But like I said, you feel that using public space for private parking is
a terrible use of public space [which] gives way too much priority to car ownership.
so naturally even a compromise would be unacceptable. IOW, all efforts should be made to make parking on public space as expensive or difficult as possible, if not outright illegal. If you want to argue the legitimacy of allowing cars in the city, come out and say it; but don't oscillate between whatever enables you to deflect the most easily.
The irony of it all being that your opening argument/sentiments about private parking could be made to a very legitimate degree against bike lanes...
Hence the real ideal lying in a modular medium.
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BG-
While you see my strategy as "rolling back", I see as advancing your cause.The goal is for you to continue to get more space for pedestrians and bikes, despite the opposition organizing, right?
....so, get more bike lanes in more places by giving the locals something in return.
Convince them they will not just LOSE space for cars in exchange for a small percentage of their constituents and stakeholders (less than % of the city commutes by bike?) riding their bikes through their hood.
You are correct in that the answer will not always be trash.
In some instances you may get it passed by stating they can park during off hours there.
In some instances you may not get a bike lane at all, but might get a loading zone or bike parking.
In some situations you may want to hold your ground 24/7/365.
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I'm sure there are lots of problems with my analogy. It was an afterthought to my main point, which you didn't address:
A bike lane is a road used by a vehicle for exercise, commuting, commerce, congestion reduction and traffic calming reasons.
A bike lane's value is not a fleeting concept, only relevant the moments of a day that there is bike tire rubber on green-painted asphalt.
(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
IOW, all efforts should be made to make parking on public space as expensive or difficult as possible, if not outright illegal.
No, for the 832nd time this is not what was advocating. It's how your simpleminded approach to this discussion makes it appear to you.
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And yes, thinking about it there shouldn't be any problems with blocking a street off at night when there's no usage. The city shuts down various major avenues for parades and stuff, so a small party on a block hardly anyone is using is no big deal. Proposing to block off significant portions of many streets all the time for parties is another discussion.
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A point by point critique and advice as you requested:
Boygabriel said:
A bike lane is a road used by a vehicle for exercise, commuting, commerce, congestion reduction and traffic calming reasons.
there are other ways to excercise, calm traffic, reduce traffic and clam traffic. Nice green medians with exercise equipment, for example.
The gardens on Broadway on the UWS (72nd st - 125th) are quite nice, and serve all of these purposes.
If the bikers are too annoying, I'll appease the old ladies and achieve "anti-car" goals while giving bikers no benefits. ....try me.
A bike lane's value is not a fleeting concept, only relevant the moments of a day that there is bike tire rubber on green-painted asphalt.
If the public perceives it as an unused strip of green asphalt, you are screwed, regardless. As a tsar, I will give you five minutes at the community board mtg, because the lanes are unused in the community next door.
(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
The public does not define a bike as transportation. They define it as recreation. Until this changes, tread carefully.
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(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
In the case of bike lanes, it should be. What is so bad about a bike lane being closed down at night/during the winter to be used for street parking? In cases like Kent Ave obv exceptions could be made, but if the goal is max utilization for the majority of the public, what's wrong w/the modular approach?
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....so, get more bike lanes in more places by giving the locals something in return.
People actually get lots of things in return. Primarily safety, which my guess is why the PPW lane has so much public support.
I understand what you're arguing, but there are other approaches I'd consider as well.
54% of New Yorkers support bike lanes, and I'd image this number will continue to grow as the public benefits become more apparent, people get comfortable with the ones in their neighborhoods, and the exaggerations peddled by groups like Mrs. Weinshall's are exposed for the falsehoods they are.
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Cool The Kid said:
(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
In the case of bike lanes, it should be. What is so bad about a bike lane being closed down at night/during the winter to be used for street parking? In cases like Kent Ave obv exceptions could be made, but if the goal is max utilization for the majority of the public, what's wrong w/the modular approach?
As I've mention a few times - nothing, other than people dying.
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Cool The Kid said:
And yes, thinking about it there shouldn't be any problems with blocking a street off at night when there's no usage. The city shuts down various major avenues for parades and stuff, so a small party on a block hardly anyone is using is no big deal. Proposing to block off significant portions of many streets all the time for parties is another discussion.What you're proposing (dramatically closing bike lanes late at night or during bad weather, right?) is wildly out of proportion to the effect on car travel that closing major avenues a couple times a year, or a few blocks here and there, have on a system of 6,000 miles of road for cars, vs what happens when you close off bike lanes on our 500 miles of lanes.
Cool The Kid said:
(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
In the case of bike lanes, it should be. What is so bad about a bike lane being closed down at night/during the winter to be used for street parking? In cases like Kent Ave obv exceptions could be made, but if the goal is max utilization for the majority of the public, what's wrong w/the modular approach?
I've already addressed this repeatedly. In very recent posts on this very page. I'm not repeating them again b/c you can't be bothered to read close enough.
Try harder.
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When you two are done calling people who could be on your side "simpleminded" and implying that we are "indifferent to bikers dying", please take a moment to respond to my suggestions and critique above.
Homeowner,
you still have some of those goldfish crackers?
I'd like some. BTW, nice van. Can I get a ride home? -
whynot_31 said:
When you two are done calling people who could be on your side "simpleminded" and being "indifferent to bikers dying", please take a moment to respond to my suggestions and critique above.Which suggestions? Multi-use/part time bike lanes? Already responded to a number of times.
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It was more directed to BG, but you'll do.
(what appears below is an improved version)
whynot_31 said:
A point by point critique and advice as you requested:A bike lane is a road used by a vehicle for exercise, commuting, commerce, congestion reduction and traffic calming reasons.
there are other ways to excercise, commute, get around, facilitate commerce, reduce congestion and clam traffic.
There are buses and subways.
There are nice green medians with exercise equipment, for example. The gardens on Broadway on the UWS (72nd st - 125th) are quite nice, and serve all of these purposes. If the bikers are too annoying, I'll appease the old ladies like those on the UWS and achieve "anti-car" goals while giving bikers no benefits. ....try me. ....better yet, try the community board.
A bike lane's value is not a fleeting concept, only relevant the moments of a day that there is bike tire rubber on green-painted asphalt.
If the public perceives it as an unused strip of green asphalt, you are screwed, regardless. As the tsar of the local community board, I will give you five minutes at this community board mtg, because the lanes are unused in the community next door.
(modular) is not how transportation networks are conceptualized and executed.
The public does not define a bike as transportation. They define it as recreation. Until you are able to change this perception, tread carefully. ....or I'll just regard you as a tiny subset of my voters.
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Goldfish AND Teddy Grahams for you!
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thanks.
I'll be back in about an hour. I have to go walk my dog in the park. I love car free spaces.
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Frankly, I think we should do away with all bike lanes and go directly to the Shweeb. Its a better concept in our climate in that it can operate year round, it doesn't require bike ownership or storage, and it allows for faster pods to push slower ones resulting in no traffic jams. Plus they could be retrofitted to allow for storage space to transport things like bags and groceries.
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