Graffitti at the Q Station
How long does it take for the city to clean off the graffitti usually? I was so unhappy to see it this morning. Since moving here I have been so proud to have one of the grungiest BUT graffitti free subway stations in NYC.
Comments
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Subject: that's not vandalsim that's art
The Brooklyn Museum exhibition Graffiti looks at graffiti as a phenomenon of modern urban life. We invite the Brooklyn community to share their photographs of existing graffiti and/or murals around the borough of Brooklyn.
Email submissions to:
[email protected].
Our tax dollars at work. It is one thing to exhibit art that people might find offensive, they are not forced to look at it. It is quite another thing to encourage people to deface public and private property. -
It is valid to examine graffiti as a phenomenon of modern urban life.
The Brooklyn Museum of Art makes no endorsement either for or against graffiti.
One of the mission of a museum is to document and preserve for current and future generations. -
yeah. the graf in the Q station isn't artistic at all. it's a scraggly, messy, stupid looking tag. if I were a graffiti artist, I'd be ashamed to have that as my work. it's lame and ugly.
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Subject: Re: that's not vandalsim that's art
nychas wrote: The Brooklyn Museum exhibition Graffiti looks at graffiti as a phenomenon of modern urban life. We invite the Brooklyn community to share their photographs of existing graffiti and/or murals around the borough of Brooklyn. [empahsis added]
I'd sort of agree with you, but they clearly say existing grafitti.
Email submissions to:
[email protected].
Our tax dollars at work. It is one thing to exhibit art that people might find offensive, they are not forced to look at it. It is quite another thing to encourage people to deface public and private property. -
Subject: Re: that's not vandalsim that's art
nychas wrote: The Brooklyn Museum exhibition Graffiti looks at graffiti as a phenomenon of modern urban life. We invite the Brooklyn community to share their photographs of existing graffiti and/or murals around the borough of Brooklyn.
thats just wrong to encourage people to messup buildings and trains and things.
Email submissions to:
[email protected].
Our tax dollars at work. It is one thing to exhibit art that people might find offensive, they are not forced to look at it. It is quite another thing to encourage people to deface public and private property. -
nyc has some of the most amazing graffiti in the world. plus parts of this city would be so ugly without graffiti. my main point though, is that i would rather see graffiti than live in a police state. aren't there better things the cops could be cracking down on? ...like my neighbors beating the shit out of each other or the kids selling drugs down the street, guns and other assorted violence?
now if only we could get more kids on field trips to art museums... maybe the graffiti would be more tasteful. :P -
vanilla wrote: nyc has some of the most amazing graffiti in the world. plus parts of this city would be so ugly without graffiti. my main point though, is that i would rather see graffiti than live in a police state. aren't there better things the cops could be cracking down on? ...like my neighbors beating the shit out of each other or the kids selling drugs down the street, guns and other assorted violence?
those kids gonna tag the musem pieces
now if only we could get more kids on field trips to art museums... maybe the graffiti would be more tasteful. :P
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Ditto on the post about liking graffiti more than converting NY into a police state. People are expressing themselves... that is good. If more people put energy into self-expression, the world would be a better place.
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You guys are joking, right?
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Hillyer Junkie wrote: Ditto on the post about liking graffiti more than converting NY into a police state. People are expressing themselves... that is good. If more people put energy into self-expression, the world would be a better place.
I'm all for self-expression, but I think that the world would be a better place if more people were more considerate of others. In my eyes, one of the biggest traits of ghettodom is a self-centeredness so thorough that consideration for others doesn't even enter one's mind. Whether it's defacing someone's property in the name of self-expression or blasting music in to the small hours of the night, the ghetto-minded are all about me, me, me. For me, any artistic merit is thrown out the window when it's done on an unwilling canvas. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Hillyer Junkie]Ditto on the post about liking graffiti more than converting NY into a police state. People are expressing themselves... that is good. If more people put energy into self-expression, the world would be a better place.
I'm all for self-expression, but I think that the world would be a better place if more people were more considerate of others. In my eyes, one of the biggest traits of ghettodom is a self-centeredness so thorough that consideration for others doesn't even enter one's mind. Whether it's defacing someone's property in the name of self-expression or blasting music in to the small hours of the night, the ghetto-minded are all about me, me, me. For me, any artistic merit is thrown out the window when it's done on an unwilling canvas.
About that "unwilling canvas", I'll bite . . . upfront, I'm not rooting for lame ass tagging on anyone's stoop or subway platform
BUT
the artist not owning *the canvas* isn't where I'd draw the line.
Graffiti inside the Q tunnel for instance, where it goes off the bridge and into/outta Manhattan, and develops like a flipbook - I love that stuff.
There's a ribbon-like elaborate squiggle made of colored tape on corrugated fencing by the Gowanus, and an ever-developing display of great stencil art over there . . . that too is good art to my eyes and it's all violating property rights. -
pitu lillet wrote: the artist not owning *the canvas* isn't where I'd draw the line.
Then that's where we differ.
Not that it necessarily has to be their property, but it does have to be done with the consent of the owner. If you don't draw the line there, where DO you draw it? It gets to be a mess.
Now, before people jump all over the question of ownership when it comes to structures like subway stations and bridges, yes, there are owners - taxpayers. Tax dollars built them and tax dollars and sustain the agencies responsible for their upkeep. We all own them.
This discussion has been had on these boards many times. Every time, I pose a question that's never been answered straight by the proponents of graffiti. It's a two-parter - a) Would you be happy if someone expressed themselves on your property without your consent? And what if many thought that the resulting art was fantastic, but it didn't happen to be your, the property owner's, cup of tea? Where does that leave you? b) Do you own/have you owned any property? -
Why do you people live in the city if you can't take loud music and graffiti?
It's an expression and there are plenty of fools that do a terrible job with it but when its done right, the Matisse and O'Keeffe Posters that you have in your apartments can't hold a candle.
Once the paint dries, it will be cleaner for you to lean on than the ceramic tile, so your Prada clothes won't get messed up. -
djuoh wrote: Why do you people live in the city if you can't take loud music and graffiti?
There it is! The classic avoidance/reply to my question!djuoh wrote: It's an expression and there are plenty of fools that do a terrible job with it but when its done right, the Matisse and O'Keeffe Posters that you have in your apartments can't hold a candle.
Again, I'm not even touching the slippery subject of artistic merit. I'm addressing lack of respect and consideration, but go ahead - sneer at and insult those that aren't hip to your tune. It only emphasises the weakness of your argument.
Once the paint dries, it will be cleaner for you to lean on than the ceramic tile, so your Prada clothes won't get messed up. -
WhyFi
How are you going to tell a graffiti artist where and when they should place graffiti based on your preference? That is some dumb shit, hence the weakness of your point. Maybe you should pass a bill, that graffiti artists shouldn't tag within 100 feet of a white person's dwelling? -
djuoh wrote: WhyFi
omg! the race bomb! I love it.
How are you going to tell a graffiti artist where and when they should place graffiti based on your preference? That is some dumb shit, hence the weakness of your point. Maybe you should pass a bill, that graffiti artists shouldn't tag within 100 feet of a white person's dwelling?
the best part, of course, being that most of the graffiti artists I know these days are well-off white folks.
and I reiterate that a piece of shit tag on a subway station wall is not ART. it's a piece of shit tag that any real graffiti artist would be ashamed to claim. if you're gonna go through the trouble of defacing property, at least do it with something worth looking at. a scribble? no thanks. waste of everyone's time. -
I don't know where the study of which race does better graffiti, but it would be a gentrificated white person that would complain before someone that has lived in the city. I already said that there is a lot of bad graffiti but the bad stuff got this conversation started. It shows that this is still the city and the gentrified are not willing to compromise their suburban roots.
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djuoh wrote: I don't know where the study of which race does better graffiti, but it would be a gentrificated white person that would complain before someone that has lived in the city. I already said that there is a lot of bad graffiti but the bad stuff got this conversation started. It shows that this is still the city and the gentrified are not willing to compromise their suburban roots.
this thread is starting to sound like:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2188&highlight=york
how many more posts til everyone is ordered out? -
djuoh wrote: WhyFi
Talk about dumb shit - you're assuming that I'm white and you're wrong.
How are you going to tell a graffiti artist where and when they should place graffiti based on your preference? That is some dumb shit, hence the weakness of your point. Maybe you should pass a bill, that graffiti artists shouldn't tag within 100 feet of a white person's dwelling?
I'm not saying that it should be based on MY preference, I'm saying that it shouldn't be placed anywhere without the consent of the owner of that property. If they have the consent of the owner, I don't have a problem with it.
Here, let me pose an analogous situation that you might understand -
Let's say that I'm a computer-based graphic designer and that I like to put my work out there for everyone to see. Djuoh, your website seems to get the kind of traffic that I would like to have as an audience. So, what I'm going to do is hack your home page and plaster my artwork (which, by the way, Basquiat couldn't hold a candle to) all over it. -
Wow, I guess you are a confused minority, that cool. There is always some in the crowd.
I don't seee where the treats need to come from, but at least your insecurity is coming out. That might help you figure yourself out.
Lets get the city to have graffiti artists ask permission from landowners to something that is considered defacing. Common! How is that going to work? -
djuoh wrote: Why do you people live in the city if you can't take loud music and graffiti?
its not their property when they tag it and messup the whole area. i hated the 1980's it was bad. its one thing to do it to your own building and property and another thing to do it to another person. its violating the other persons rights.
It's an expression and there are plenty of fools that do a terrible job with it but when its done right, the Matisse and O'Keeffe Posters that you have in your apartments can't hold a candle.
Once the paint dries, it will be cleaner for you to lean on than the ceramic tile, so your Prada clothes won't get messed up. -
djuoh wrote: Wow, I guess you are a confused minority, that cool. There is always some in the crowd.
you just dont seem to understand the concept of private property or probably human rights of a person too. i bet you think its okay to beat up another person cause hell the person is expressing themsleves. its okay to express themsleves as long as they dont interfere with another persons rights.
I don't seee where the treats need to come from, but at least your insecurity is coming out. That might help you figure yourself out.
Lets get the city to have graffiti artists ask permission from landowners to something that is considered defacing. Common! How is that going to work?
same goes for property, if the person wants to express their art. they should do it in a legal medium. not doing it to some poor guys building or store front or the public train stations!!! -
djuoh wrote: Wow, I guess you are a confused minority, that cool. There is always some in the crowd.
I'm a confused minority? How's that? What, is showing respect for someone's belongings a "white" thing?djuoh wrote: I don't seee where the treats need to come from, but at least your insecurity is coming out. That might help you figure yourself out.
WTF are you talking about? Are you going to make a point anytime soon, or did you plan on continuing the ad hominem to cover your irrational view?djuoh wrote: Lets get the city to have graffiti artists ask permission from landowners to something that is considered defacing. Common! How is that going to work?
So, you never responded to my plan - what do you think of my idea of taking over your website? Not that I'm asking your permission, I just want to know what you think for my own amusement. -
Whyfi,
I would gladly meet you in person to discuss all these questions with you. What do you think? -
Sure, if you feel that you can better express your viewpoint in person, why don't you come to the next DH outing - I'll buy you a beer.
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I saw that exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum and thought the graffiti looked weak. I'm surprised that they couldn't come up with a better selection for that show. I'm not a huge fan of that style, but have definitely seen better.
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djuoh wrote: I don't seee where the treats need to come from...
LOL - okay, I just realized that the above "treats," should read "threats," right? I was confused there for a few.
Listen, I'm not going to do shit to your site, I'm trying to illustrate a point. You've obviously put work in to creating something that you take pride in, similarly gratifying to working and saving to buy a home/business/property. Now, in this scenario, someone comes along and defaces your site - the fruits of your labor. Does it make it any more acceptable because it was done in the name of artistic expression? In my mind, absolutely not. It would be wrong of someone to mess with your hard work (your site) just as it is wrong for a graffiti artist to mess with another person's hard work (their home, etc).
When it comes to grafitti, I take it that you feel that the results outweigh the wrongs committed in the name of their art. Fine - you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm going to a) feel free to share my point of view and b) point out the hypocrisy demonstrated when you felt that your work was threatened.
Every religion has some version of The Golden Rule - "Do unto others..." and that's what it all comes down to. -
WhyFi wrote: a) Would you be happy if someone expressed themselves on your property without your consent? And what if many thought that the resulting art was fantastic, but it didn't happen to be your, the property owner's, cup of tea? Where does that leave you? b) Do you own/have you owned any property?
Ok as a person who loves graffiti, was a graffiti writer many many years ago I will answer that:
a) Yes and No. Depends on what the state of my property is in and what type of graffiti. Would I like someone's tag smack on the front of my home now - absolutely not. Did I do it when I was younger - yes but not on any type of residential home that was not abandoned. As I have matured (dont anyone snicker ) my personal feelings now are that graffitti (at least tags) do not hold the same alure for me as they did when I was doing it. The reasons just are not there (i.e., teenage angst, feeling of making my mark in society). I LOVE these beautiful paste ups I see now on buildings. I would allow those on the side of my house in the walkway that leads to my yard. Some of these paste ups are beautiful works of art in my opinion.
b) I do own my home.
Most of the more elaborate murals and graffiti pieces are done with the consent of the owner of the wall. I am not aestetically (sp?) pleased with the mural on Washington but it still fills me with a sense of peace and happiness. Some friends of mine just recently did some really nice pieces on a wall at the foot of Columbia off Nelson - it (at least to me) gave an otherwise squat, colorless building some type of pizzazz.
We talk about how ugly buildings are in that are now being built (i.e, the Underhill building). When I was growing up lots of my friends lived in the projects - every building has that same institution look to it. I always found the playgrounds and handball court graffiti to be a beacon of color in a very drab area. When I would sit in my jr high class room at IS 293 I would look out at the glass and glassine envelope strewn yard and my eye would automatically be drawn to the beautifully colorful piece (usually with a great funny looking character) and it made me smile, made me think there is beauty outside of this neighborhood and thus gave me hope.
Many, many graffiti writers went on to be great artists. Maybe what it all boils down to is I associate graffiti with my childhood but nonetheless it is still an integral part of Brooklyn history. -
stacey wrote: Ok as a person who loves graffiti, was a graffiti writer many many years ago I will answer that:
Thanks for your honest answer, I respect that, but I just feel that working along the lines of something so subjective (your feelings on the state of repair of the property) gets you in to a big gray area. Maybe someone like Armchair just bought that property and is going to start renovations. Maybe your idea of disrepair is different than the owner's. Where does one draw the line? The only easy place to draw it is at ownership. Either you own it or you don't. Either you have consent or you don't.
a) Yes and No. Depends on what the state of my property is in and what type of graffiti. Would I like someone's tag smack on the front of my home now - absolutely not. Did I do it when I was younger - yes but not on any type of residential home that was not abandoned. As I have matured (dont anyone snicker ) my personal feelings now are that graffitti (at least tags) do not hold the same alure for me as they did when I was doing it. The reasons just are not there (i.e., teenage angst, feeling of making my mark in society). I LOVE these beautiful paste ups I see now on buildings. I would allow those on the side of my house in the walkway that leads to my yard. Some of these paste ups are beautiful works of art in my opinion.
b) I do own my home.
Most of the more elaborate murals and graffiti pieces are done with the consent of the owner of the wall. I am not aestetically (sp?) pleased with the mural on Washington but it still fills me with a sense of peace and happiness. Some friends of mine just recently did some really nice pieces on a wall at the foot of Columbia off Nelson - it (at least to me) gave an otherwise squat, colorless building some type of pizzazz.
We talk about how ugly buildings are in that are now being built (i.e, the Underhill building). When I was growing up lots of my friends lived in the projects - every building has that same institution look to it. I always found the playgrounds and handball court graffiti to be a beacon of color in a very drab area. When I would sit in my jr high class room at IS 293 I would look out at the glass and glassine envelope strewn yard and my eye would automatically be drawn to the beautifully colorful piece (usually with a great funny looking character) and it made me smile, made me think there is beauty outside of this neighborhood and thus gave me hope.
Many, many graffiti writers went on to be great artists. Maybe what it all boils down to is I associate graffiti with my childhood but nonetheless it is still an integral part of Brooklyn history.
I don't have anything against public art - the murals in Philly are great - but I do have a problem with artists or anybody else feeling that they're entitled to express themselves at the expense of someone else.
Respect, yo. -
As someone who 99% of the time is in disagreement with the majority opinion of this board, I'd like to think that I make every effort to avoid stooping to outright name calling, racial provocations and other trollish bullshit that serves no purpose but to piss everyone off.
Sure, tempers might flare and I'm certainly not above sarcasm, but nothing is more maddening than the, "If you disagree with me you must be from [insert location of scorn], or you must be a [insert representative group of scorn]." Then everyone has to go on about establishing their "credentials", all of which are beside the point. This argument is the resort of the pure bullshit artist who has no half-decent points to make and instead has to rely on elementary school jibes.
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