SPLIT TOPIC: American society: the poor the unemployed

Thank you CTK. I'll still check it out, maybe by just reading the review.

The factors you point out (energy costs, etc) are certainly in our favor. Labor costs count, certainly, but the equation is more complex than that. What really counts is something economists refer to as comparative advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage).

The problem has been a lack of will to develop such an advantage. I believe too many resources have been dedicated to financial services (where I earned the majority of my professional experience, and where I hope to continue working for the next 25 to 30 years). For example, the Japanese (who I sincerely wish as quick a recovery as possible), in spite of being at a disadvantage, were able to build such an advantage in auto manufacturing through investment and perseverance. The U.S. has such an advantage in aerospace, but I believe it is possible to develop more niche advantages across a broad spectrum of industrial manufacturing.

In a country of more than 300 million, with such a diverse array of skills, we simply can't count on specializing in such a few high paid services (finance, law, and healthcare). There needs to be an expanding base of decent quality jobs for people who don't necessarily have the skills to become a computer scientist, banker, consultant, or electrical engineer.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that you have come to agree that in a limited and indirect way, the wealthy have at times benefited at the expense of the middle and lower classes (I'm working from memory, and apologize if I've misunderstood your meaning). But I can think of many ways in which the wealthy, through financial institutions, have directly hurt what were decent jobs, leaving those working middle class jobs vulnerable. I can point to private equity (again, where I've had employment). A good example is Simmons Mattress (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons.html), who built a quality product and provided quality jobs but, after being bought out by private equity (and then traded to other firms), were so loaded with debt that they could not compete. This is directly due to unsustainable greed. This destroys comparative advantage, and causes me to scratch my head at such short term thinking.

Switching gears a little,

Aljazeera recently featured Cornell West. The network won't let me embed it, so you'll need to follow the link.

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2011/03/201132863311584728.html

Dr. West always makes me think.

Haven't read any replies way too long for me to dig through them. plus i'm lazy .

The poor has been giving one great tool and many of them don't use it in this country, called a god damn free education. Alot of the poor all over the world would love the opportunity to get themselves out of poverty due to lack of education etc... Besides the free education, we have a social system to support the poor.

The Poor in this country just abuse those privileges by acting stupid and acting out in schools. reality of things is can't always blame the man for the problems.

The poor immigrants from other countries come here and do well with our free education system and alot of them within a generation is no longer poor. Alot of them don't even use the education but they work hard and their kids benefit etc...

the poor in this country is way too self entitled like the wealthy are. they think if you are born here (Americans in general) that you are god given gift to humanity and as citizens you are special with magical properties that distinguish you from rest of humanity.

Many of native born Americans won't do some type of jobs because its below you. I remember working in crappy jobs that my American friends wouldn't touch, Never understood that, money is money.

i grew up poorer than the kids in the projects, hell they made fun of me for wearing the same god damn things every day etc...If you were never poor and never hungry before you don't know what a dollar is or what i'm saying about a wasted education.

They use to make fun of guys like me in class, for actually learning. from what i didn't learn in class, i went to the library after school to learn. I grew up in brooklyn in the 80's/90's and being the only asian kid in a minority school wasn't fun.

I wish i have privilege is something I wish i had.

Politically asians are the most disadvantaged group. tell me what group still get white guys to play asian roles in america? yellow face still acceptable, media people still making mocking songs and accents etc.... If this happens to Hispanic or blacks, those same people would be fried.

You probably haven't meet real working class Asians immigrants who work away in anonymous restaurants and sweat shops etc....

The first generation usually work to death to get their kids a education. Not given educational opportunities etc.. the native kids get. No special affirmative action needs, cause asians do so well, because parents like mines take no vacation days. work 7 days a week whole years. toiling way for crappy dead end jobs. Most Asian immigrant families i know are like this.

Not waiting for the man to give the handout to. How many generations those native born americans going to wait for the man to act instead of doing it yourself, work hard and start your own business and do other things, Most asians just take the problems and don't complain. Thats why you don't see asian involved in politics etc...

I grew up worse conditions than the native born American friends i have, their parents spoke english, they had a native born advantage vs some immigrant like me. who had to learn this language etc... My mom still works as a seamstress and dad still works in a restaurant, hell i work in a restaurant before. got one of my friends trying to work in one lol, he gave up on day one. boss was disappointed, and he said this is why we don't hire americans. alot of these immigrant jobs can be handle by native born americans, but alot of native born guys think they are too good to work in them. illegal immigration problem would be gone tomorrow if americans work those type of jobs.

I wish affirmative action was economic base not race based. Alot of poor asians never get the same education as the middle class ones who parents come from education etc...

armchair_warrior said:

i grew up poorer than the kids in the projects, hell they made fun of me for wearing the same god damn things every day etc...If you were never poor and never hungry before you don't know what a dollar is or what i'm saying about a wasted education.

They use to make fun of guys like me in class, for actually learning. from what i didn't learn in class, i went to the library after school to learn. I grew up in brooklyn in the 80's/90's and being the only asian kid in a minority school wasn't fun.

You deserve a lot of credit for getting yourself out of this situation. I'm glad your hard work has allowed you to enjoy a better life.

I don't know what class you think I am, I still live at home, saves tons of money can't bring dates home LOL. I worked all my life until recently. Made alot of smart investments with pooled family money.

My last job man with the van, in fact i meet many brooklynians this way, I made the same as the restaurant jobs I had, just better hours I made myself. Other wise it sucked ass, but Not that much opportunity for a guy like me out there. I could drive a bus, but hated the politics and unions.

I still didn't master the english language grammar, didn't go to the good schools couldn't afford them. I taught myself english believe it or not. my teachers would just sit me in the back of the class and pass me. They didn't even bother to teach me. While learning you always have the constant worry about random mindless violence from the native born kids, who would hit you for no reason etc.. no way to learn.

I'm not a big fan of generalizations, but I do think it is appropriate to congratulate someone on hard work ....it does not always result in success, but often does.

Yes I'm quite aware you find generalizations extremely helpful to your political commentary.

armchair_warrior said:

I don't give a damn about generalizing things, its easier and faster instead of wasting eons trying to get to something that would be argue over etc... what is something specific,

one can never get any real specifics. cause you can always narrow things down to more specifics than the previous persons definition. You just have to stop some where.

I could say that bushmen is generally small, someone could come along and says that they have seen tall bushmen before or really that small relative to them etc... could waste tons of time trying to define something that people already know what I'm talking about.

So true, Armchair!

...and so related to what others are expressing on a thread in the CH section.

It as if some people look for reasons to tell people they are being "insensitive", or use "sweeping generalizations".

...and in, so doing, completely ignore people's first hand experiences.

Have we reached the point where one can no longer express a dislike of an individual that is part of a group, without it being assumed that they hate the whole group?

Is the political correctness of the 90s coming back?

Was it needed then?

Is it needed now?

Who is more annoying?

a. those who, without cause, correct well meaning people

-OR-

b. people who are actually insensitive and/or make sweeping generalizations.

Have we reached the point where one can no longer express a dislike of an individual that is part of a group, without it being assumed that they hate the whole group?

This is not what Armchair typically does with his sweeping generalizations in political discussions. He is most certainly not criticizing a specific individual.

I mean:

How many generations those native born americans going to wait for the man to act instead of doing it yourself

Really? that passes for legitimate discussion? guess we just disagree then.

Who is more annoying?

a. those who, without cause, correct well meaning people

-OR-

b. people who are actually insensitive and/or make sweeping generalizations.

Given the amount of inequality and privilege that exist in this country? (B), by a wide margin.

Minorities, women, gays and a million other non-white-christian males are still not equal in our society.

Not by a long shot.

So I'd expect someone as intelligent as you to understand the bigger picture, and why not generalizing or stereotyping groups is actually still extremely important, no matter how much it "annoys" you.

A vast majority of the people who are irritated by 'political correctness' are usually privileged straight whites. In other words, people who still dominate society and should probably yield to the concerns of less privileged groups, even if it means loss of the "right" to stereotype.

There are different answers to that question because obviously there is problematic overzealous political correctness. Like, as you say: if someone says, "I don't like Mr. X" and then someone says, "You don't like him because he's Race X".

But that's not the "political correctness" I'm describing, nor is it the critique I was making of sweeping generalizations in this here discussion or ones like it.

As a general rule, people from the privileged groups are prone to be sensitive when their privilege gets challenged or even simply alluded to (try listening to conservative talk radio some time).

So as soon as groups started speaking up for themselves, backlash from dominant groups was almost immediate.

It's a pretty standard process that happens everywhere. It's part of what makes one group dominant and others disadvantaged. One is in power and gets to frame the debate. The other is portrayed as "overzealous" or, more offensively, "over sensitive", which is about one of the most pompous and debasing accusations one can make in a discussion of privilege, wealth, race and the like.