Down load a printable image of The Arch and the Tower
Comments
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This is the most awesome thread in the history of this site.
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WhyFi, what have you learned?
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I also want to know what Whyfi has learned.
But feel the need to let readers know that it was the girdle, not the halter, that was responsible for flat bush.
It is important to keep this conversation factually based.
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DanielJ said:
This is the most awesome thread in the history of this site.agree
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Whyfi - I would like to hear what you found.
Your words have been more thoughtful and
constructive than most here.
You should notice some of your points
have lead to changes in the downloadable
file that initiated this thread. -
We all await word from Whyfi.
Meanwhile, I have received a cease and desist letter from Taco Bell.
They apparently feel it is bad for business to have their tacos mentioned as being aligned with the arch in gap.
They are tired of sophmoric fish taco, vagina jokes as well. ....even though I would never stoop to that level.
Maybe booklaw is right; we should just sot around and talk about our own obelisks. Anything beats revisionism.
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Ah, richard's back! Here I thought you'd gone to ground. No, I don't have anything that supports your theory, quite the opposite. How about we take a look at a relevant timeline?
Jan 9th, 1865 - "In the meantime you may be interested in the Brooklyn affair, though nothing may come of it. Stranahan induced me to go over the other day & examine the site"
- a letter from Calvert Vaux (NY) to Fredrick Law Olmsted (CA). Excerpt from The Papers of Frederick Law Olmsted, Volume 5. This is the first time that Vaux mentions (to Olmsted) the project that would turn in to Prospect Park.
*** Note the wording, "Stranahan induced me..." this doesn't sound at all like someone that's chomping at the bit to undertake the project. ***
- the sketch that accompanied the letter (for bearings, north is roughly at the 7:30 position) -
*** Note that there is no precursor to GAP in this drawing and, although Manhattan (New York Island) is represented in the smaller sketch in the upper left, the only only thing remotely linking Manhattan and the park is the line representing Flatbush Ave). ***Feb 5th, 1865 - Calvert Vaux plan for Prospect Park is submitted to the city of Brooklyn. It shows his proposed boundary changes. (North is, as indicated by the arrow, precisely at the 3:00 position)
*** Note the plaza - the size, shape, orientation is identical to what is in place today. Note the date. ***
This map resides with the Brookly Historical Society Map Collection - http://brooklynhistory.org/blog/2010/06/04/prospect-park-maps/Mar 12th, 1865 - "I have recently recieved your letters of 9th & 10th January, and the map of Brooklyn Park as designed by General Viele. My heart really bounds (if you don't mind the poetry) to your suggestion that we might work together about it. I can't tell you & you can't conceive how I would like to expect it. But I don't think it's likely. My health is weak."
...
"Your plans are excellent, of course"
- a letter from Fredrick Law Olmsted (CA) to Calvert Vaux (NY). Excerpt from The Papers of Frederick Law Olmsted, Volume 5.***Note - Olmsted, like Vaux, doesn't express a great amount of optimism about the project. Also note that the "excellent," comment is in reference to the Jan 9th sketch by Vaux that did not include a GAP precursor.***
April 14, 1865 - President Lincoln is assassinated.
So, what we can take from this -
1) Despite your love of Olmsted's quote "all of its parts... shall be confluent," he had no input on the size, shape, location or orientation of the plaza. There is no conspiracy between Vaux and Olmsted.
2) The size, shape, location and orientation of the plaza was determined before the assassination of Lincoln. At this point, Astor may be a polital rival of the President, but he's not a politcal rival of a slain President. Did Vaux, and Vaux alone, have such a dislike for Astor, at this point in time, as to aim the plaza at his unseen house, more than 5 miles distant?
2.5) It's also worth noting that there is one significant difference between the initial plaza design (Feb, 1865) and the finalized design: a berm (hill/mound with trees) was added at the north end of the ellipse. If they were really trying to establish a "visual corrridor," why would they create a berm, that rises higher than the interior of the plaza, smack in the middle of said "corridor"?So, will you go away now?
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*slowly stands up while clapping*
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Perhaps Richard could join with those who believed judgement day would happen today. His theories are debunked.
Richard-
I believe you should continue to revise your theories in light of the facts Whyfi has brought to bear.Xlizelx, I believe that Richard has been forced to eat gap, not crow.
....many people enjoy it. ....even in historical times.
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I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that a clever high school slacker duped me in to researching a paper for him/her. I guess that that's easier for me to believe than an adult that's as delusional as portrayed over the past year.
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From your research, you know that after returning from Germany in 1827 at age 35, Astor purchased the plot where he and his older brother’s mansion would be built more than 30 years later. In 1850, both Olmsted and landscape architect Andrew Jackson Downing traveled to England. Downing returned with Englishman Vaux and they designed the grounds of the Capitol and Smithsonian. No alignments there, right?
The view from the Prospect Park roadway in 1930, looking through the Arch, of the Tower under construction (40 years before the Mirador), exposed the previously invisible alignment of the axis of the Brooklyn ellipse and a point on that plot in Manhattan.
In 1859-60, while Olmsted was in England again, Stranahan consulted Vaux on his selection of the site of Brooklyn’s Park among several competing locations. Stranahan was leaning towards a site in Ridgewood. Who influenced his selection of Prospect Park? And this was before Lincoln’s election (much less his assassination), the Civil War or the mansion at 350 Fifth Avenue. The man-made structures which enable the awareness of the alignment may appear to be random. The Arch, the Lincoln statue and JFK bust, each fountain, the evolution of mansion to the Tower, the Mirador, and even Payne’s monument may only serve as convenient markers.
But I still want the Lincoln statue facing the site of the mansion, as planned by Vaux and Olmsted. I’m sure you guys could care less. And if the view of the Tower is eclipsed by Building Six of Atlantic Yards, you guys would be all over me when I say “If that building wasn’t in the way, you would see the Empire State Building bisecting the Arch.”
In the 1865 map you chose not to show, by engineer Benjn D Frost, it is obvious that the ellipse would have existed even if the Vaux plan was not accepted and Flatbush Avenue ran through the center of the planned park and at angle through the ellipse) No Plaza, but maybe a fountain and statue, and no Arch.
You truncated Olmsted’s March 12, 1865 quote. “Your plans are excellent, you go at once to the essential starting points, and I hope the commissioners are wise enough to comprehend it.”
In Volume V, page 66, what does Vaux mean by the work on Brooklyn Park being “of vital importance to the progress of the republic?” After all, he is just an architect.
Do you know the name and history of the money man behind the Empire State Building?
The view documents the New World’s history of the ongoing competition between the ostentatious abuse of wealth, power and greed and the subtle cultivation of a unique society that respects man’s differences, as all are created equal.
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From your research, you know that after returning from Germany in 1827 at age 35, Astor purchased the plot where he and his older brother’s mansion would be built more than 30 years later. In 1850, both Olmsted and landscape architect Andrew Jackson Downing traveled to England. Downing returned with Englishman Vaux and they designed the grounds of the Capitol and Smithsonian. No alignments there, right?
The view from the Prospect Park roadway in 1930, looking through the Arch, of the Tower under construction (40 years before the Mirador), exposed the previously invisible alignment of the axis of the Brooklyn ellipse and a point on that plot in Manhattan.
In 1859-60, while Olmsted was in England again, Stranahan consulted Vaux on his selection of the site of Brooklyn’s Park among several competing locations. Stranahan was leaning towards a site in Ridgewood. Who influenced his selection of Prospect Park? And this was before Lincoln’s election (much less his assassination), the Civil War or the mansion at 350 Fifth Avenue. The man-made structures which enable the awareness of the alignment may appear to be random. The Arch, the Lincoln statue and JFK bust, each fountain, the evolution of mansion to the Tower, the Mirador, and even Payne’s monument may only serve as convenient markers.
But I still want the Lincoln statue facing the site of the mansion, as planned by Vaux and Olmsted. I’m sure you guys could care less. And if the view of the Tower is eclipsed by Building Six of Atlantic Yards, you guys would be all over me when I say “If that building wasn’t in the way, you would see the Empire State Building bisecting the Arch.”
In the 1865 map you chose not to show, by engineer Benjn D Frost, it is obvious that the ellipse would have existed even if the Vaux plan was not accepted and Flatbush Avenue ran through the center of the planned park and at angle through the ellipse) No Plaza, but maybe a fountain and statue, and no Arch.
You truncated Olmsted’s March 12, 1865 quote. “Your plans are excellent, you go at once to the essential starting points, and I hope the commissioners are wise enough to comprehend it.”
In Volume V, page 66, what does Vaux mean by the work on Brooklyn Park being “of vital importance to the progress of the republic?” After all, he is just an architect.
Do you know the name and history of the money man behind the Empire State Building?
The view documents the New World’s history of the ongoing competition between the ostentatious abuse of wealth, power and greed and the subtle cultivation of a unique society that respects man’s differences, as all are created equal.
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I hope that some future man made structure will enable your awareness of your delusion. It runs deeps. Seriously, I'm not fucking around - go get help.
(Do I really need to debate quotes, as though everybody were speaking in code, throughout all volumes of The Papers of Frederick Law Olmsted? Let me ask you - how many times, in ALL of the correspondence, to and from F.L.O, was the Astor name mentioned? 3 times, maybe 4, but all in passing. I repeat, over a period of DECADES, 3 or 4 times. Yeah, the Astors were certainly high on his list of priorities. That was sarcasm, just in case your delusion clouded my intent.)
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I hope that some future man made structure will enable your awareness of your delusion. It runs deeps. Seriously, I'm not fucking around - go get help.
(Do I really need to debate quotes, as though everybody were speaking in code, throughout all volumes of The Papers of Frederick Law Olmsted? Let me ask you - how many times, in ALL of the correspondence, to and from F.L.O, was the Astor name mentioned? 3 times, maybe 4, but all in passing. I repeat, over a period of DECADES, 3 or 4 times. Yeah, the Astors were certainly high on his list of priorities. That was sarcasm, just in case your delusion clouded my intent.)
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You can imagine how unhappy I am not to find Astor's name among those Olmsted denounced and wanted hung during the Draft Riots. Barlow, Bennet, Brooks and Belmont. Seymour, Woods, Andrews, and Clancey. But no Astor. Rats.
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You can imagine how unhappy I am not to find Astor's name among those Olmsted denounced and wanted hung during the Draft Riots. Barlow, Bennet, Brooks and Belmont. Seymour, Woods, Andrews, and Clancey. But no Astor. Rats.
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Richard-
If I were you, I would imagine this entire thread has been nothing but disappointment to you, but I agree with you on one point: I wish the Astors were around GAP more. They are very generous with their money, and I would like some of it.But let's stay on topic.
Even though Whyfi took the time to try dissuade you from your version of history, you continued to exhibit blind faith.
Even now (after it has been proven that your theories have no basis in fact what-so-ever), you continue to desperately search for a way in which you can get people to believe your theories.
I am sorry, but the vast majority of people here require facts before following a theory. Despite being confronted with the facts, you have refused to yield.
Like the guy who predicted the world would end on Saturday, you are free to continue to believe your version of the events. I am sure you (or someone else) will again desperately try to create a new version of history, and see who follows you.
Perhaps Ratner will build a building that coincidentally aligns with the arch. Then you (or someone 100 years from now) can argue that the view should be protected.
However, it is my sincere hope that you (and anyone you may convince to listen to you), not waste their lives on this cause. There are better things to do than live in an imagined past.
For example, one could waste time talking about the new restaurant that is going to open. Or a lost cat.
...these things are real.
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Richard-
If I were you, I would imagine this entire thread has been nothing but disappointment to you, but I agree with you on one point: I wish the Astors were around GAP more. They are very generous with their money, and I would like some of it.But let's stay on topic.
Even though Whyfi took the time to try dissuade you from your version of history, you continued to exhibit blind faith.
Even now (after it has been proven that your theories have no basis in fact what-so-ever), you continue to desperately search for a way in which you can get people to believe your theories.
I am sorry, but the vast majority of people here require facts before following a theory. Despite being confronted with the facts, you have refused to yield.
Like the guy who predicted the world would end on Saturday, you are free to continue to believe your version of the events. I am sure you (or someone else) will again desperately try to create a new version of history, and see who follows you.
Perhaps Ratner will build a building that coincidentally aligns with the arch. Then you (or someone 100 years from now) can argue that the view should be protected.
However, it is my sincere hope that you (and anyone you may convince to listen to you), not waste their lives on this cause. There are better things to do than live in an imagined past.
For example, one could waste time talking about the new restaurant that is going to open. Or a lost cat.
...these things are real.
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Brooke Astor deserves a monument.
She sounds like she was really great person.
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Brooke Astor deserves a monument.
She sounds like she was really great person.
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This does have me curious, though, ricky - since your belief mirrors (to me) that of devoutly religious people, what would it actually take to convince you that it's all a coincidence? I think that most people see the logic in my explanation through documented facts (others, feel free to chime in if you think that I've left something unexplained), but where does it fall short with you? What would it take, you know, short of resurrecting Vaux, Olmmsted and Stranahan?
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WILLIAM BLACKSTONE ASTOR SR. (1792 – 1875)
Where did William, Sr. live? Evidently he had a large estate up the Hudson in Barrytown. Was that his principal residence? Or his country house? As far as aiming at an Astor property in Manhattan, it sounds like there was so much of it in midtown that you could hardly miss. Hundreds of properties.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Backhouse_Astor,_Sr.Another thing I would be curious to know is this: How did father and sons negotiate their apparent differences over this most divisive event in American history? Both sons supported the war. Sounds like drama!
“[...] his two sons, William Backhouse Astor, Jr. and John Jacob Astor III. His sons, whose side-by-side mansions were on the site later occupied by the first Waldorf-Astoria Hotel (a family property) and then the Empire State Building, [...]
-- ibidThe Sons
JOHN JACOB ASTOR III (1822 – 1890)
“During the American Civil War he [John Jacob Astor III] served as a volunteer aide-de-camp to General George B. McClellan. For his services during the Peninsular Campaign he was brevetted brigadier general of U.S. Volunteers. He always regarded this period as the best of his life, and attended the reunions of the Loyal Legion with zeal.”“In 1846, he married Charlotte Augusta Gibbes (c. 1825-1887) of South Carolina and in 1859 he built a home at 350 Fifth Avenue, which is today the street address of the Empire State Building.”
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacob_Astor_IIIWILLIAM BLACKSTONE ASTOR JR. (1829 – 1892)
“He [William Backhouse Astor Jr] supported the abolition of slavery before the American Civil War, and during the war, he personally bore the cost to equip an entire Union Army regiment.”
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Backhouse_Astor,_Jr.
(A full regiment in the Union Army was 1,000 men)
-- http://www.nps.gov/archive/gett/getttour/armorg.htm -
Hi Sandcastler,
Let me respond to you in the next post.
I had turned off my thread notification.First I have a few questions
to the general reader of this thread.1. Do you agree with the planned return of the
Lincoln statue to a spot, still on the axis,
but across traffic lanes, and facing SOUTH,
in the opposite direct that the designers,
Civil War participants and Lincoln supporters, intended?Would you sign a petition to place it between the Arch
and Fountain, facing NORTH, overlooking the public area?2. Is there anyway that his photo,
taken with my back against the lamppost
on the median of the parks roadway,
is merely a co-incidence?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Arch_and_EmpireSB_-_Grand_Army_Plaza_Brooklyn.jpg
Also, I made a few changes to the
pdf file that started this.http://rfkessler.com/40yearsago.pdf
http://rfkessler.com/2010Mirador.pdf
Hopefully some of you can forward these
links to others who may be interested? -
Planners Calvert Vaux and Frederick Law Olmsted, and Brooklyn Parks Commissioner James Stranahan, devoted Lincoln men, aimed the axis of the Plaza at that mansion
You still have absolutely nothing to base this on and you have conveniently neglected to answer my pointed questions.
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This topic has been debated at sufficient length. I am closing this thread.
Howdy, Stranger!
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