culture vs ethnicity/race, and neighborhoods
I was just responding to a post, when the thought occured to me about how often we (and I include myself), use "culture" as a stand in for behavior of a few individuals that happen to share the same phenotype/affiliation or country of origin.
What I am getting at is: Why is it acceptable and part of the "hood" for certain people to blast loud obnoxious music? Whether I blast Beethoven or Busta Rhymes, isn't that just rude and beyond culture? Does it become cultural if I am Black, and play Busta Rhymes? If I have lived in that neighborhood for 50 years does that give me the right to do that to a neighbor who has only been there for 25 years?
When did parking your car in front of a building and blasting loud music from it, become a "black/latino/whatever" thing?
I'm a goth chick, but that doesn't mean that I have to wear all black every day, or not be a professional . (I have an advanced degree and work professionally). If I've been going to a goth club for 10 years does that give me the right hog up the dancefloor, because I have been coming for longer, than the new "emo/twilight loving kinder goth"
I am saying these things as a human woman who just wants to be able to have the feedom to do what I want when I want to do it in my apartment. I understand that maximizing my freedom means that I may have to obey certain laws that are for the common good. If one person wants to sleep and the other wants to practice their bagpipes, we can compromise by making sure the bagpiper either finds a sound proof music studio or practices during commonly accepted "business hours". In return I agree not to blast my Rozz Williams/Christian Death CD's while he may be trying to watch American Idol next door.
I bring this all up, because of the whole "gentrification issue", and how some people may automatically think, if you are "new" to the city, or a neighborhood, than you must put up with the shit that goes on there or get out. Do we as new residents or even old residents have to put up with the bad antics of a few? Do those "few" have to represent a whole neighborhood or culture?
Any thoughts?
Comments
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A person only has the power to represent one's self.
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Of course you "shouldn't" have to put up with anyone's antics. But then the question is...what you believe is not right they apparently do, else they wouldn't be doing it. Also, the question arises...what do you do about it. How do you approach them without either being told to fuck off or get punched in the face. Compromise is a good thing if you're able to achieve it. If not, either in the neighborhood or in the world, that's when war breaks out.
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I think it's about cultural differences. My neighbors upstairs never learned at a young age that slamming a door was not cool. I say it like that because when I brought up the scenario to another person once, they said that even little kids learn not to slam doors. But if a person was not raised in the same area, country, etc. then the morals they grew up with are much different.
I agree with you 100% that people SHOULD be considerate of one another, but time and time again this issue arises that in fact that is not the case.
Should people live in the same neighborhood for 50 years and act like they own it? No, I personally do not think so. After awhile, please move to a house or something. An apartment is great for a little while, but it is only a stepping stone to the American Dream. Unfortunately people here seem to be very territorial about their "hood."
I really don't want to say too much on this issue because it could get to be a very heated debate. I don't appreciate my neighbors threatening me, attacking me, slamming doors at all hours or playing their tv loudly at 2am, unfortunately, I am stuck living here in this neighborHOOD where I just don't have the option to move.
I feel your pain & you present a very rational point. I also think the people you are talking about are not really into this whole blogging culture that has popped up in the last two years here in Crown Heights.
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I am just glad that everyone in the wealthier neighborhoods of NY gets along with each other and can always settle minor differences.
Living elsewhere is nothing but joy.
By reading the link below, you will know that my comments above are sarcastic.
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/15/trader_joes_mom_fight_trial_gets_na.php
Caprario smacked London so hard she says her ears rang, but her lawyer asserts it was justified: "Dr. London was acting in a smug, arrogant and obnoxious manner... so she could cut the line to get to the frozen food."
um, I doubt this will work as a defense to smacking someone.
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I am just glad that everyone in the wealthier neighborhoods of NY gets along with each other and can always settle minor differences.
Living elsewhere is nothing but joy.
Sarcasm aside, I agree. Everywhere else it's the Bellum omnium contra omnes.
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Jenee said:
Should people live in the same neighborhood for 50 years and act like they own it? No, I personally do not think so. After awhile, please move to a house or something. An apartment is great for a little while, but it is only a stepping stone to the American Dream. Unfortunately people here seem to be very territorial about their "hood."
I really don't want to say too much on this issue because it could get to be a very heated debate. I don't appreciate my neighbors threatening me, attacking me, slamming doors at all hours or playing their tv loudly at 2am, unfortunately, I am stuck living here in this neighborHOOD where I just don't have the option to move.
I feel your pain & you present a very rational point. I also think the people you are talking about are not really into this whole blogging culture that has popped up in the last two years here in Crown Heights.
Oh.My.God. Where do I begin? You seriously need to tell me how long you've lived here and where the you moved from. Really- how long? Have you actually been here long enough to witness Labor Day? I don't think I blame your neighbors for the stance they've taken against you.
From what I've seen of your posts, I think it's pretty safe to say you are no authority of anything. You actually have the gall to say that an apartment is a stepping stone to the American dream? Are you freaking kidding me??? I could educate you as to how this city became what it is....but what's the point? Suffice it to say, this is not a transient place, much to your pathetic chagrin.
Oh, and your ridiculous, UNEDUCATED (do some research, fer crissakes!) assumption that blogging about Crown Heights has only been going on for 2 years...Please, when you find somewhere better to move, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Good riddance.
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Thank you, Whatchuwant, for taking the words out of my mouth.
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Side note - home ownership scares the crap out of me. -
You have every right to be scared. Homeownership is not the guaranteed path to success that realtors and others purport it to be.
WCW and xlizellx, all is not lost
-witchking impressed me with his Hobbes quote.
-psycho-ologist continues to impress
-pragmatic guy seems to be a thinker as well -
Aaannnd once again, Brooklynian manages to both horrify and entertain all in the same fantastic thread. Thanks Brooklynian, and of course, a big huge thanks to Jenee! My god, don't ever change.
Just, you know, do it somewhere else. Please.
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Watchuwant, Jenee says she came from LA. What confuses me is why someone who clearly doesn't like this place is staying.
To Jenee, I know the cost of moving Is great, heck, I just did it, but there are a number of neighborhoods in this massive city that cost similarly and are a lot quieter. Have you considered Inwood/Washington Heights? Or some parts in Queens, like Woodside maybe? Heck, I hear Bay Ridge can be really quiet, and Bensonhurst, while a little further away, is even cheaper than what you're paying now I'm guessing.
I'm not trying to be snarky, you just seem really unhappy here and have expressed a number of disparaging comments about NYC, Brooklyn, and the people who occupy it's borders.
You also may not realize, but when you say owning an apartment is not as important as owning a house in the scheme of the American Dream, it comes off as quite offensive.
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tateinbk said:
Watchuwant, Jenee says she came from LA. What confuses me is why someone who clearly doesn't like this place is staying.To Jenee, I know the cost of moving Is great, heck, I just did it, but there are a number of neighborhoods in this massive city that cost similarly and are a lot quieter. Have you considered Inwood/Washington Heights?
washington heights and inwood lol would be way too urban for her
.try out here where i am very quiet. you know bensonhurst,midwood,gravesend,dyker heights,bath beach, and even bayridge.
in fact most of the rent here is cheap as the gentrifying ghetto some even cheaper.
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Jenee said:
I think it's about cultural differences. My neighbors upstairs never learned at a young age that slamming a door was not cool. I say it like that because when I brought up the scenario to another person once, they said that even little kids learn not to slam doors. But if a person was not raised in the same area, country, etc. then the morals they grew up with are much different.I agree with you 100% that people SHOULD be considerate of one another, but time and time again this issue arises that in fact that is not the case.
Should people live in the same neighborhood for 50 years and act like they own it? No, I personally do not think so. After awhile, please move to a house or something. An apartment is great for a little while, but it is only a stepping stone to the American Dream. Unfortunately people here seem to be very territorial about their "hood."
I really don't want to say too much on this issue because it could get to be a very heated debate. I don't appreciate my neighbors threatening me, attacking me, slamming doors at all hours or playing their tv loudly at 2am, unfortunately, I am stuck living here in this neighborHOOD where I just don't have the option to move.
I feel your pain & you present a very rational point. I also think the people you are talking about are not really into this whole blogging culture that has popped up in the last two years here in Crown Heights.
I wonder whether the reason your neighbors threaten and attack you, slam their doors and play their tv loudly is because you've said some of the stuff you post here to them? I know just reading some of this stuff makes me want to slam a door so I can imagine what it might be like hearing it come out of your mouth.
You strike me as being younger. I would suggest that you allow age and experience to temper your worldview. To suggest your black and brown neighbors come from cultures where rudeness is acceptable implies that ALL similarly situated person are also rude. In fact, what I believe you mean is that your neighbors (who happen to be black and brown, or possibly yellow or red) come from ENVIRONMENTS where rudeness is acceptable. There is a big difference in those two things. If there is one thing that is true about the world it is that no group of people have cornered the market on any particular behavior. After all who ever thought that Anthony Weiner's wife would have anything in common with those chicks on Mob Wives who are constantly bitching about their low-down, no-good men?
Your thinly veiled disgust with people who are different from you is off-putting and it is also unnecessary. Its clear from your short time posting here that you do not like this neighborhood or most of the people who inhabit it. You say you cannot move, but , trust me you can. In fact, I'm sure some of your neighbors would be glad to help you with that if you let them know you were planning on going - quickly.
Oh, and btw your loud neighbors? The one's hanging outside and driving around in cars with the booming systems? They have computers and smartphones too. They just spend their time at websites other than Brooklynian.
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whynot_31 said:
I am just glad that everyone in the wealthier neighborhoods of NY gets along with each other and can always settle minor differences.Living elsewhere is nothing but joy.
By reading the link below, you will know that my comments above are sarcastic.
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/15/trader_joes_mom_fight_trial_gets_na.php
Caprario smacked London so hard she says her ears rang, but her lawyer asserts it was justified: "Dr. London was acting in a smug, arrogant and obnoxious manner... so she could cut the line to get to the frozen food."
um, I doubt this will work as a defense to smacking someone.
I'm really not talking about wealth or economics here. You noticed the majority of my post was about noise and culture. You prove my point by suggesting that even upper middle class neighborhoods have these issues. My issue is: Why aren't those middle class folks ALSO identified as having "hoods" where they act in obnoxious ways? . I notice there is a trend among many bloggers (not just some Brooklynian's) to make vague and suggestive correlations that certain "cultures" inhabit certain neighborhoods, thus making them noisy dangerous places containing people of ill manners.
I like what you originally said “We only have the power to represent ourselves”.My thing is why is it that in some cases ie such as the one you point out, we attribute it bad things to the antics of a few, and in other cases we contribute it to the “culture” of the whole neighborhood? My other question is why don’t some of these street urchins and folks doing some of the bad antics realize that they are the ones who are giving the neighborhood the bad rep? Why don’t they know they are the ones responsible for ensuring that people have to take the subway to the movie theater, a good coffee shop or the pharmacy that is open in emergencies 24 hours a day?
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The urchins (aka hedgehogs) you describe may be well aware of their effects, yet not have any DESIRE to act otherwise. The hedgehogs you describe may be well aware of their effects, yet not have any ABILITY to act otherwise.
That said, although we only have the to power to represent ourselves, it seems to be a natural tendency of the brain to categorize people as being part of groups. In this way, the brain gives individual people (or a subset of people) the "power to define their group", even though they should not have this power.
As a psycho-ologist, you are likely aware of the discussions that go on in the field of Knowledge Organization.
As a result of things like:
-- our own first hand experiences,
--what we have been taught by our parents and the media, and
--our own desires to be considered "nothing like those urchins"
we always look for someone to define as "other".I think these issues are behind why some communities (such as the low income, white community of Dorchester, MA) are able labeled "working class" as opposed to "ghetto", despite sharing almost identical undesirable characteristics (rates of violence, noise level, income level, use of illegal drugs, etc).
Yet another factor is the ability of a neighborhood to exclude people that act like hedgehogs.
Neighborhoods with power (in most places power arises from having the right mix of education, race, and income) are able to find a way to get rid of inconsiderate people, while areas that lack power are forced to -by and large- endure their presence.
That said, it's complicated. You've asked questions that might be to complex to answer well on a message board.
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whynot_31 said:
The urchins (aka hedgehogs) you describe may be well aware of their effects, yet not have any DESIRE to act otherwise. The hedgehogs you describe may be well aware of their effects, yet not have any ABILITY to act otherwise.That said, although we only have the to power to represent ourselves, it seems to be a natural tendency of the brain to categorize people as being part of groups. In this way, the brain gives individual people (or a subset of people) the "power to define their group", even though they should not have this power.
As a psychologist, you are likely aware of the discussions that go on in the field of [urn=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=knowledge+organization&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=]Knowledge Organization[/urn].
As a result of things like:
-- our own first hand experiences,
--what we have been taught by our parents and the media, and
--our own desires to be considered "nothing like those urchins"
we always look for someone to define as "other".I think these issues are behind why some communities (such as the low-income, white community of Dorchester, MA) are able labeled "working class" as opposed to "ghetto", despite sharing almost identical undesirable characteristics (rates of violence, noise level, income level, use of illegal drugs, etc).
Yet another factor is the ability of a neighborhood to exclude people who act like hedgehogs.
Neighborhoods with power (in most places power arises from having the right mix of education, race, and income) are able to find a way to get rid of inconsiderate people, while areas that lack power are forced to by and large endure their presence.
That said, it's complicated. You've asked questions that might be too complex to answer well on a message board.
You are taking me back to philosophy class and I heart you so much! :salut: :-)
I think you are right. Maybe I am just "angling" against something I really have no control over, but which does affect me personally in a lot of ways.
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If you have power, you get to decide between living in four places:
1. In a community that has the power and exercises it to exclude people it considers to be hedgehogs. (Many people choose to live here)
2. In a community that does not have power to exclude hedgehogs (Not many people choose to live here)
3. In a community that has power, but chooses to not consider people hedgehogs and thus excludes no one . (Not many people choose to live here)
4. In a community that has power, and views some people as hedgehogs, but does not exclude them under the belief that somehow they can be convinced to abandon their hedgehog ways. (many people choose to live here)
...there is no need to commit to one of the four places now, and you can always change your mind later.
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