Time to tax churches and NGOS.
Comments
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Jimmy said:
vidro3's statement was that "profits" for this purpose were any revenue that exceeded expenses. He said nothing about capital gains.Regardless of the merits of this particular plan, any step down this path implicitly requires that Americans, religious institutions and NGOs simply trust that the government won't play favorites. That's totally unrealistic.
Are you familiar with the field of Accounting? In the non-profit sector, it defines profits as Net Assets. It is a figure that shows up at the bottom of the cash flow statement each year.
Non-profits are required to fill it out, and most churches fill it out in order to show that they engage in reputable business practices.
It allows churches to keep the donors/customers/members who insist that they spend money on soup kitchens, schools and the like.
You know that churches/mosques/temples etc are just small businesses, right? Like a small business, they must provide a real "in this world" value to their customers.
The entity then retains some of their earnings, and I see no reason this should not be taxed.
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whynot_31 said:
The entity then retains some of their earnings, and I see no reason this should not be taxed.Jimmy said:
Regardless of the merits of this particular plan, any step down this path implicitly requires that Americans, religious institutions and NGOs simply trust that the government won't play favorites. That's totally unrealistic.Jimmy said:
The hard part is that historically, religious organizations have been implicity exempt due to the separation of church and state. A tax on religious groups would violate that....what is so hard about this?
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Jimmy said:
No, I'm happy to defend them, I've been doing so all morning, just not to you.Right, you make it personal, then you can conveniently not defend your spurious claims.
It's a good game you've got going:
Make claims.
Get challenged.
Instead of defending your icon-clad position, go ad hominem and pretend the questions don't exist.I've always wondered how people managed to convince themselves that Obama has raised taxes or the rich share an unfair tax burden.
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Jimmy said:
"Facts" from Paul Krugman don't count.Pulitzer Prize winning Paul Krugman who cites actual data when making his arguments? That guy? Do "facts" from Michelle Bachmann count? What about Tea Party fiscal policy, which isn't based on any economic theory whatsoever?
Name the taxes Obama has raised.
I'm waiting.
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Jimmy said:
As long as it's doing a better job and better represents my views than do the GOP or the Dems, I'll stick with them. I'll certainly give them longer than the 2+ years they've had. It beats standing for nothing and complaining about how everyone sucks.I know a lot of people who won't have anything to do with the imaginary Tea Party, the imaginary Working Families Party, the republicans or the democrats. Yet, I can't say they stand for nothing or think everyone sucks.
Where do you meet these people? How do they feel about taxing churches and NGOs?
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Jimmy said:
Regardless of the merits of this particular plan, any step down this path implicitly requires that Americans, religious institutions and NGOs simply trust that the government won't play favorites. That's totally unrealistic.Jimmy said:
The hard part is that historically, religious organizations have been implicity exempt due to the separation of church and state. A tax on religious groups would violate that....what is so hard about this?
a. The part about religious orgs and NGOs being legal entities that get a free ride; I was taught every entity who benefits from government should pay for its maintenance.
b. Your reliance on a slippery slope argument that it would result in a state preferred religion. This country has been through some pretty tough times, yet avoided that so far.
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you guys actually humour him.
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whynot_31 said:
a. The part about them being legal entities that get a free ride; I was taught everyone should pay a share.Not sure where you were taught that, but it's wrong. There have always been organizations and legal entities in this country that were tax-exempt.
b. Your reliance on a slippery slope argument that it would result in a state preferred religion. This country has been through some pretty tough times, yet avoided that so far.Because religious organizations have always been tax-exempt.
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ah, tradition.
the thing that would have my fellow citizens be considered less than human on the basis of the color of their skin.
the thing that would have my fellow citizens be considered less than human on the basis of having a vagina.
...no, lets never mess with tradition.
Tradition trumps all!
The debate is over.
You win.
(next time can it be my turn to cite tradition and win?)
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I here by announce "the brooklynian church of no paying taxes
protest against churches and NGO with tax exemptions church "anyone who is interested can become members and i think we can subcontract out your work to your current employers as workers for the church as clergy to spread the word of protest the exemptions.
with the money the church makes, we'll buy property and rent out the places for profit, i mean "charity" in the name of the one who is all mighty irs. or even better yet, open our own schools and charge the kids for pre-k to college give them a good education in the ways of the mighty IRS.
imagine that LOL.
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whynot_31 said:
ah, tradition.the thing that would have my fellow citizens be considered less than human on the basis of the color of their skin.
the thing that would have my fellow citizens be considered less than human on the basis of having a vagina.
...no, lets never mess with tradition.
Tradition trumps all!
The debate is over.
You win.
(next time can it be my turn to cite tradition and win?)
So tax-exempt religious institutions and NGOs are an evil comparable to slavery and women's rights? Calm down.
I'm not citing "tradition." I'm citing law. You're welcome to do so, as opposed to citing histrionics and sarcasm.
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Armchair and BG-
The colleges have huge endowments that seem ripe for taxation, yet don't contribute to the local economies. When combined with the assets of religious institutions, that could really add up.
We'd have to be thoughtful in how we go about this, however. We want to make sure we are not reduced to talking points and go about it in an objective manner.
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Jimmy said:
So tax-exempt religious institutions and NGOs are an evil comparable to slavery and women's rights? Calm down.I'm not citing "tradition." I'm citing law. You're welcome to do so, as opposed to citing histrionics and sarcasm.
All of the traditions I mention were codified in law.
...just like those that exempt NGOs and religious institutions from tax.
The great thing about this being a somewhat-good democracy is that we can adapt laws to match our changing values and needs, as long as they do not impact upon an entity's inherent rights.
To my knowledge, there is no inherent right for entities to get a free ride. ....there are only laws that prevent me from having them pay in.
...let's change those laws.
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colleges and churches etc... they are all too well connected lets be honest lol. this is just coming up with ideas how to solve theoretically the current problems. that the politicians from both sides aren't talking about and aren't willing.
with our exercise i hope someone in the media reads it and ask any of the politicians how bout hey taxing the those ngos and churches etc....this way gives the average joe to say hey why aren't you guys willing to tax those orgs?
this is a long shot
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AW-
I think your hope about the media reading this is too optimistic....but this thread was entertaining.
For a while I was assumed to be Left
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just thought of something
that might fly, we'll call it the peta and aryan nations fair taxes to go after ngos and churches . -
you never know seriously there is alot of writers in park slope and prospect heights and alot of them happen to be reports
. and many of them actually read the boards! -
peta and aryan nations fair taxes to go after ngos and churches
Those two groups would only agree on one thing: Serving tofu at their conferences
It is vegan and pure white
:cheers:
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whynot_31 said:
All of the traditions I mention were codified in law....just like those that exempt NGOs and religious institutions from tax.
And yet still not remotely comparable.
The great thing about this being a somewhat-good democracy is that we can adapt laws to match our changing values and needs, as long as they do not impact upon an entity's inherent rights.To my knowledge, there is no inherent right for entities to get a free ride. ....there are only laws that prevent me from having them pay in.
...let's change those laws.
You're right, you could change the law. Which would necessarily require the abolition of the separation of church and state. Are you okay with that?
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Jimmy-
You keep stating that separation of church and state requires that there be no taxation what-so-ever of NGOs or religious institutions, yet have not provided any evidence what-so-ever of this being true.
Have you done your research on how other nations handle the issue?
Is our country so unique that we would fail where they have not?
Are you so wed to the current traditions and laws of the US that you can entertain no alternatives?
Are you really unable to make an exception to your traditions even on a silly message board?
Today, you tried to discuss the issue with:
a moderate dog, whynot.
the politically left Simpson's bartender, Boygabriel
a video game character, Armchair WarriorHow do you think you did?
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whynot_31 said:
You keep stating that separation of church and state requires no taxation what-so-ever of NGOs or religious institutions, yet have not provided any evidence what-so-ever of this being true.Allowing taxation of religious organizations, while not directly an endorsement of any particular religion, does, quite directly, put the government in a position to endorse or persecute a particular religion. As has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout our history, if the government can do something, it will.
Have you done your research on how other nations handle the issue?Sure. Many other nations have established state religions. I'd be fine with going that route - I can guarantee ours would be Christianity, and then you can tax churches. You down?
Are you so wed to the current traditions and laws that you can consider no alternatives?Certainly not. I'm considering them, and rejecting them.
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Allowing taxation of religious organizations, while not directly an endorsement of any particular religion, does, quite directly, put the government in a position to endorse or persecute a particular religion. As has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout our history, if the government can do something, it will.
You view the government as omnipotent, and lacking a system of checks and balances. I do not
Sure. Many other nations have established state religions. I'd be fine with going that route - I can guarantee ours would be Christianity, and then you can tax churches. You down?
Is ours the only nations without a state religion? really?
Certainly not. I'm considering them, and rejecting them.
I'll be the first to admit that there are people in the world far more articulate on these subjects than I.
Because NGOs and religious entities have no inherent right to a free ride, those of us in favor of taxing them need merely to convince the majority that our ideas are good ones.
We might not need your vote.
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sadly jimmy is probably part of the majority who wouldn't touch alot of sacred cows.
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whynot_31 said:
You view the government as omnipotent, and lacking a system of checks and balances. I do not
No, I understand there are checks and balances - a primary one of which is the separation of church and state.
Is ours the only nations without a state religion? really?No, it's not, but you really should do more research into other countries and the way they handle this.
Because NGOs and religions have no inherent right to a free ride, those of us in favor of taxing them need merely to convince the majority of persons that our ideas are good ones.We might not need your vote.
No kidding - best of luck with that.
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armchair_warrior said:
sadly jimmy is probably part of the majority who wouldn't touch alot of sacred cows.AW-
While there are people who don't question current practices out of respect for tradition, Jimmy seems to believe that the US is the only country that has managed to maintain religious freedom.I can see how this would lead him to believe that changing anything about our current system of taxation on them would lead to a religious state.
I just disagree with him.
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whynot_31 said:
AW-
While there are people who don't question current practices out of respect for tradition, Jimmy seems to believe that the US is the only country that has managed to maintain religious freedom.I can see how this would lead him to believe that changing anything about our current system of taxation we would lead to a religious state.
I just disagree with him.
Wow - smug, passive-aggressive, sarcastic and purposefully totally misrepresentative. Well-played.
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misrepresentative?
what are you willing to change about the current method in which we handle NGOs and religious organizations in the tax code?
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whynot_31 said:
misrepresentative?what are you willing to change about the current method in which we handle NGOs and religious organizations in the tax code?
Nothing, I think it's fine as is. But that's completely different from your statement.
I don't think we're the only country that has maintained religious freedom, and nowhere do I say that. In fact, you implicitly ask me if that's what I believe, and I say no, it's not, and yet that doesn't stop you from claiming that's what I believe in your very next post. I'd call that misrepresentation. Or lying. But I was trying to be nice.
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