Missing 8-year-old B'klyn boy found dead

elgoats said:

"I wonder if said trust actually has any positive or negative effect on protecting kids from"

Why are you looking for way to subtlety twist it so that blame rest on the community there?

Because they have some sickos and pervs like every community?

How does that pertain to what happened?

''It is thought provoking (it that the right word?) that the cohesiveness of the orthodox community, and the speed at which they and the police mobilized is theorized to have caused the abductor to panic and kill the boy. Basically, by doing everything a community is "supposed to do", the community inadvertently caused his death. ?! disturbing "

Are you for real?

Seriously?

You have a very interesting way of seeing the world.

Stop trying so hard to sound academic and different then the masses.

See it for what it is.

WOW...

I am not trying to sound academic, or put the blame on anyone but the guy who killed a kid. If I need to clarify, I'll repeat that the blame for this dismembered kid doesn't belong to social norms (in any culture) about who we should trust and shouldn't.

Returning to my thought process: We live in a risky world, but thankfully, the risk of child stranger abductions seems pretty remote.

It reminds me of how afraid people are of sharks. People can and do get attacked by sharks, and I imagine it really sucks to die that way.

However, unless they did something like see a shark fin in the water before they swam out, that doesn't mean they were foolish simply by going in the water.

So, while instances such as this murder happen, I wouldn't advocate not letting kids walk 8 blocks home from summer camp if they lived in Boro Park.

I just tend to thing our fear of sharks and child abductors is disproportionate to the actual risks they pose.

No, that doesn't mean I advocate petting a shark or teaching your kids that every adult is trustworthy. ...the dangers these thing pose are real.

BTW, yes, I am real.

Idlewild-

It is scary stuff.

I suspect the Center for Exploited Children or the FBI could be the one to give us authoritative data on how often:

abduction by strangers and murder by strangers occurs

VS

abduction and/or murder of kids by people they know occurs

Even given such data, that doesn't mean Armchair and his childhood friend should have gotten in the car with the guy he mentions.

....saying one thing, does not necessarily imply another.

Yes, I have heard of the Etan Patz case. Kelly referenced it as being the last such instance of stranger abduction and murder.

As lousy (is that a strong enough word?) as it is to have a kid killed, I think the fear created by such killings is often worse.

Anyone ever watch Nancy Grace's "be afraid for your children at all times" program on CNN?

...I think TOO MANY people watch that program.

Due to the nature of such instances, we will never know if Booklaw "over reacted" and over protected his kids.

I certainly isn't my place to make such a determination.

But there is such a thing as over reacting to a kids murder/disappearance.

...I guess the parent gets to decide.

booklaw said:

The thing is, they're both still alive and well. Neither's face ever graced a milk carton.

That is a always good outcome.

I suspect a big part of that was that you were able to find a way to balance your urge to protect them against[/b] their urge to be independent.

My parents did the same.

Idlewild said:

Yeah but the alleged killer is traif. They keep showing pictures of him in cowboy hats, shaven beard, cut sides, basically lived life on the infidel side. Again, I'm not sure the Hasidim would have anything to do with him. Except for business. This is why I believe this guy spotted a lost kid and approached him first. The NYPD & media stories of the young man initiating just doesn't make sense when you look at the facts and players. It's almost like they're down-playing this. An I mention all of this not to make this a Jew on Jew squabble, but to emphasize that a stranger is a stranger and always a potential psycho when it comes to anyone's child.

Yes, but the same article says that the Borough Park community has a large minority of Orthodox (non-Hassidic) Jews that live in and among the community. Given this, it doesn't seem that strange to me that if the guy spoke to him in Hebrew, the kid would already view him as being someone slightly more trustworthy than a stranger.

Idlewild said:

I'm basing it, quite frankly, on I don't trust Kelly. After having dealt with him and watching him at a community meeting a couple of years ago, he did not come across as a bright person, or someone who like to tackle problems. And let's be honest, the city doesn't need to have a stigma of stranger abductors. To me at least, the city is trying to make this sound like a case of one rotten apple in the basket of good fruit, rather than the child abduction and murder that this is. As well as the abductions that have been prevalent not only in NYC, but the country as well.

I agree the police are soft-pedaling this, but I think for different reasons. There are plenty of kids disappearing in this city every year. Chanel Petro-Nixon comes to mind. 99% of them are completely ignored by the media, which means less pressure on the cops to find them. This story got the play it got because of the community the kid lived in and the response within that community. If you think I exaggerate tell me what was the police response to the disappearance of Patrick Alford? Same age, disappeared off the street, no evidence of family interference or abduction by a person known to the child.

I think Kelly does not want too many questions asked about how many kids actually do disappear in this city and what the police are doing to find them.

homeowner said:

Yes, but the same article says that the Borough Park community has a large minority of Orthodox (non-Hassidic) Jews that live in and among the community. Given this, it doesn't seem that strange to me that if the guy spoke to him in Hebrew, the kid would already view him as being someone slightly more trustworthy than a stranger.

Right. So we both agree. Like I said, this guy is a predator. A professional predator. He saw a lost kid and convinced him to tag along. I'm contesting the theory that the media and some in the NYPD say that young Leiby Kletzy initiated the approach because the "alleged" killer is Orthodox.

Alford case-

Cops have knocked on 15,000 apartment doors, followed up on tips in New York City and out of state, interviewed dozens of bus drivers, reviewed phone records and surveillance tapes and searched on land, sea and by air.

"We are concerned that the intrusion of a private investigator could be a detriment to the well being of a child who may have been kidnapped and whose life may be in danger"

The boy has been missing since January.

If the child was going to be in danger as a result of people looking for him, wouldn't that same danger already be present from the police already looking for him?

Couldn't they stipulate that the law firm be required to disclose its findings on an ongoing basis, that way the police could tell them "thanks for your help. You have found enough leads that we should be lead again".

This is a odd decision by the judge, and one I fear may be an attempt to preventing the city and ACS from being embarrassed.

I do not know why the city would be potential embarrassed in light of how hard this article says they have searched for the kid: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/04/07/2010-04-07_nypd_revives_search_for_missing_foster_child_patrick_alford_100_cops_deployed_to.html

In this case, the kid may have threatened to run away before disappearing:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/01/23/2010-01-23_brooklyn_foster_child_patrick_alford_7_threatens_to_run_away_then_disappears.html

and/or the biological family may have been involved in kidnapping the kid:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/01/29/2010-01-29_untitled__3missing29m.html

Obviously, these are all just theories. I wonder if they will ever find the kid or his body.

Whynot, I think some of the concerns of the city may have to do with the timing of the case. Recall we had an incredibly snowy winter. The kid disappeaed in January. Evidently, in early February there was a search by air and along the coast by seven officers. But the 100 officers weren't deployed for a ground search until April. Also, the mother was jailed by the judge who thought that she may have been involved, but the fact that the mother is the one who is now seeking to take legal action against the city and is represented by a top-notch law firm on a pro-bono basis, also says something about why the city may be concerned.

Based upon those articles, the family dynamics seem a tad messy and not all in keeping with a giant conspiracy. So it may be a case where the cops were convinced of the mom's guilt enough to not spend a lot of time up front, and now there is no trail to follow, and no evidence to pursue.

homeowner said:

Judge won't approve law firms' bid to work with cops on case of missing boy

An update on the Patrick Alford case. Now the courts won't allow outsiders to help try and find the kid.

Homeowner-

The press gave the Alford case some coverage this week. It seems the police are finally being forced to provide their investigation records to outsiders.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_share_foster_files_G0B4w7nrm7fYm79urnKXNO#ixzz1flQw8Wpo