What it means to be poor in the U.S.
Comments
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Instead of discussing actual points I argue, you're generalizing my position and then forming a judgement of it.
Carry on.
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Boygabriel said:
Lo and behold! Here was have pointless labeling!I am openly and unapologetically left-leaning progressive.
I'm not against labels b/c they're inaccurate, I'm against them b/c they're usually pointless.
You're spending time telling me what camp I'm from, which doesn't actually further the debate in any meaningful way.
Shall we discuss ideas or keep talking about me?
I'm not labeling you, just recalling what you have said and drawing a conclusion about your POV.
And understanding where someone is coming from is important. Again, you seem to have a short memory- I distinctly remember you dismissing points I made in another thread as I was speaking from a "position of privilege" that disabled me from seeing things your way. But now labels and perspective don't matter, lol.
I don't think one's background is of much consequence. Rich white kids grow up to be both doe eyed liberals and xenophobic conservatives. I know from experience. "Privilege" is of much less consequence than the ideological framework one has subscribed to. So when someone states the fact that we can't afford our outlays, which include entitlement programs, and that we should look at everything, including entitlement programs, to see where we can cut... the logical person says, 'alright that sounds fair'. The warhawks, bankers, progressives and other special interest folks go lightheaded. How dare they! The programs I champion are the backbone of the country! And we come to the gridlock we have now, as the debt continues to balloon.
So yes, perspective matters. Logic, not ideology, is what should prevail. We should all be Lebowskian Nihilists, as both sides have shown that believing in anything gov't related is generally a fool's game.
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well stated CTK.
and with that point made, we now return to our scheduled programming:
witch-king said:
Given the hundreds of books and thousands of articles published on poverty over the last 50 years, it's doubtful the Heritage Foundation has suddenly discovered what it really means to be poor in America.What's curious is that right-wingers continue to harp on welfare programs that have already been slashed. They seem to believe AFDC still exists (it doesn't). What they are finding out is that targeting government programs that serve the middle class (Soc Sec and Medicare) is a political disaster. There's rough sledding ahead for small government types.
whynot_31 said:
yes, people who have paid into the the SS system and medicare, and participate in the workforce (aka the middle class) are genuinely going to be much harder to defeat than the public assistance folks and the disorganized far left.This is a good thing.
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Cool The Kid said:
And we come to the gridlock we have now, as the debt continues to balloon.On what issues have progressives created gridlock?
On what issue has Obama bowed to the progressive wing, creating complications?
Complaining in the media or at press conferences and actually creating effect are two very different things.
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Boygabriel said:
On what issues have progressives created gridlock?On what issue has Obama bowed to the progressive wing, creating complications?
Complaining in the media or at press conferences and actually creating effect are two very different things.
Does Obama have to have bowed to a demand for it to count?
Obama is under pressure from the left to stand firm on left friendly programs. That was definitely one of many factors as to why the 4 trillion dollar plan didn't go through.
Ultimately, AGAIN, both the left AND right have been instrumental in bolstering the lack of progress beyond this impasse. Isn't the Go6 made up of equal parts left and right? Or do those lefts not count?
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Cool The Kid said:
Does Obama have to have bowed to a demand for it to count?for it to count, there has to have been identifiable roadblocks thrown up by progressives, that were heeded by Obama or anyone else in power.
cite examples please.
Obama is under pressure from the left to stand firm on left friendly programs.
But the deals Obama has offered do not come close to standing firm on social programs. So how exactly is pressure from progressives influencing that?
That was definitely one of many factors as to why the 4 trillion dollar plan didn't go through.
No it's not. The Republicans walked away from the table, repeatedly. Usually by making a new last minute demand. Like saying,
Repub: $4,000,000,000,000 in cuts please
Obama: Ok, deal
Repub: No wait, not good enoughor last week when at the last second they wanted a provision to repeal the Health Care law.
Ultimately, AGAIN, both the left AND right have been instrumental in bolstering the lack of progress beyond this impasse.
I do not see any evidence progressives have thrown up any roadblocks. I am open to it if you can provide any.
Mostly Obama, Reid and Co are compromising with Repubs left and right, and none of it is good enough.
The current deal being considered has $4T in cuts, is only a 1-time ceiling raise for 2 years or something, and doesn't address revenue or taxes in any way. That is a complete victory for Repubs.
Why aren't they agreeing to the deal then? you got me. But it sure as shit has nothing to do with progressives.
Isn't the Go6 made up of equal parts left and right? Or do those lefts not count?
The G06 is creating the gridlock now? I'm confused.
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I think the far left fantasizes of a situation when it could once again roadblock, and now tries to use its powerlessness as evidence of being a the victim of the oppressors.
It is especially funny when the people they are "oppressed by" are the struggling middle class.
um, maybe the left needs to look around.
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So who do I believe?
WN says the far left dreams of being roadblock
CTK says progressives are a reason for roadblocks already
WN:
Can you show me what progressive stuff you're reading or watching where they claim they're oppressed by the struggling middle class?
Or this is one of those infamous "they" observations?
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You can believe who you wish.
...what may be most important is for you to realize is that very few people find people who can not compromise as being credible.
I look forward to hearing "which side are you on" sung again in 2012, and being cast as someone who shifts with the wind.
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I take that as a no? You don't can't tell me who this 'far left they' is?
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the 'they'
I hate those 'they' guys. They're so out of it.
...what may be most important is for you to realize is that very few people find people who can not compromise as being credible.
But then you also argue that Tea Party is just going to gain influence when their stated policy is no compromise whatsoever.
I don't see how both of these things can be true.
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Are you distancing yourself from the left? Would you prefer that I say that I think that YOU are out of touch with how out of control our debt and spending is?
Are you claiming you have the ability to see the other side?
Although I am not a fan of the Tea Party, I think it may be the best thing to happen to this country in ages. So far, the ends have justified the means....
Yes, if they get the Go6 plan implemented, I suspect they will become hugely popular.
Yes, I will smile.
Yes, it might happen
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Are you distancing yourself from the left? Would you prefer that I say that I think that YOU are out of touch with how out of control our debt and spending is?
No, I'm making fun of your generalized statements about the mythical 'them'.
I find them entertaining.
The Go6 plan has nothing to do with the Tea Party.
You're saying the public would somehow
1. give them credit for it
2. give them credit for compromiseEven though:
1. the Go6 plan has nothing to do with them
2. The Tea Party doesn't want to compromise on anything -
Much my dismay (as they frequently help Democrats win elections), I predict the Tea Party will be a non-entity sooner rather than later.
It will be co-opted by the Republicans, and it will go the way of all the other rightwing populist uprisings we see when a Democrat gets elected president.
We'll see which of us is correct.
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If it wasn't for the Tea Party, we would have never heard from the Go6.
...both parties would have simply raised the debt limit, the one you feel should be raise without any debate.
I've come to believe that change in the Democrats and the Republican will only come via force.
Politics make strange bed fellows. Yup, I'm rooting for the crazy, angry white guys
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The Tea Party sounds a lot like "the poor": blaming other people for their own economic and cultural misery. TP members could use a dose of "personal responsibility".
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And you think the public is going to give the Tea Party credit for their intransigence that led to the G6 proposal, rather than, to you know the G6 and Obama, who will get the headlines?
Walk me through that logic.
The Tea Party flies in direct contradiction to your statement that, "very few people find people who can not compromise as being credible."
The Tea Party's brand identity is the absence of compromise.
This is an inherent contradiction in your argument.
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witch-king said:
The Tea Party sounds a lot like "the poor": blaming other people for their own economic and cultural misery. TP members could use a dose of "personal responsibility".Most tea partiers are college-educated middle-class Republicans.
They aren't saying anything Republicans haven't been saying since the 80s.
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Boygabriel said:
And you think the public is going to give the Tea Party credit for their intransigence that led to the G6 proposal, rather than, to you know the G6 and Obama, who will get the headlines?Walk me through that logic.
The Tea Party flies in direct contradiction to your statement that, "very few people find people who can not compromise as being credible."
The Tea Party's brand identity is the absence of compromise.
This is an inherent contradiction in your argument.
Any help with either of your claims? I'm still lost.
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I think the public has seen enough BS over the past 40+ years to be able to figure out that the Republicans and the democrats didn't suddenly do what was best for the country, and will have to give credit to the motley angry dudes: The Tea Party.
...but if Obama gets credit, I'll be ok with that
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The angry dudes who don't compromise with nobody.
Oh well...
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...but the grumpies are causing people to listen to the Gang of 6!
Howdy, Stranger!
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