The spending and tax proposals of the Gang of 6
Comments
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witch-king said:
Boehner is on the verge of winning the Pelosi Prize in inept House leadership. He hasn't quite figured out that the Tea Partyers don't care if the economy crashes and burns as long as their idée fixe reigns. It's better to cobble together a deal with House Democrats and the Senate than to be bound to irrational forces in American society.This why I have no idea if the limit will get raised.
If sane people are in charge: yes.
If the Tea Party gets its way: no.
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whynot_31 said:
While cutting health care expenses would be awesome, I do not feel it would be ethical to take 1 trillion dollars solely from the health care budget under the guise of "reform".We should cut a variety of things, and tax a variety of things.
Reforming health care would cut expenses and expand coverage, not reduce it.
I agree there's lots to cut, lots to reform, lots to tax.
But Health Care seems to me by far the most practical place to start. You save money and at the same time actually better the lives of millions of Americans, almost instantly.
But thanks to the Tea Party, Republicans, Democrats and Obama's health insurance donors (but mostly the Tea Party, remember, health care is when the group surfaced), all we did was get accusations of socialism and a half-assed health insurance bill (not health CARE).
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The health care reform and expansion you envision isn't going to happen before Aug 2.
....you'll get some tweaking if you are lucky.
Your task is to come up with a plan that reduces the deficit by 1 trillion, either by taxing or cutting spending. Needless to say, the plan has to be acceptable to those in charge of the country.
You don't have to like it.
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I'm not sure what hypothetical you're giving me.
The Republicans refuse to govern responsibility when it comes to debt, or specifically health care. So do the Dems, but at least they'd cut what I think are our two biggest cost issues:
health care & defense.
Those are basically off limits to the Repubs. On the flip. Obama and the Dems are offering tons of social service cuts. But it's not enough for the Repubs.
I can tell you what I would've done if I were President.
But with this self-inflicted debt ceiling crisis?
Who the hell knows.
Who said we had to cut 1,000,000,000,000 in one month?
What kind of miserable way is that to enact changes?
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All of the prior attempts to enact changes failed.
...the government kept raising the limit over and over without any plan to get it under control.
Now it has to create a plan.
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armchair_warrior said:
at the end of the day when i see it I'll believe it typical politicians loves talking but no actions
.hmm few more days to go!!!
on a side note, i wonder if my bank will sign on aug xxx for my new place i'm investing in. which i'm pouring more money into this country. I won't see my money decades from now.
*sigh
I really want to move already lol damn my family doesn't want to move.
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whynot_31 said:
All of the prior attempts to enact changes failed....the government kept raising the limit over and over without any plan to get it under control.
Now it has to create a plan.
This is an absolutely miserable way to govern.
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Boygabriel said:
This is an absolutely miserable way to govern.Decades of over spending and under taxing put us in this situation. We have been living beyond our means.
We have all been recipients of the largess, but now it is time to take steps to toward responsibility.
breaking an addiction is hard.
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armchair_warrior said:
hmm few more days to go!!!on a side note, i wonder if my bank will sign on aug xxx for my new place i'm investing in. which i'm pouring more money into this country. I won't see my money decades from now.
*sigh
I really want to move already lol damn my family doesn't want to move.
Social security and medicare (as we know them) won't exist either.
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whynot_31 said:
Decades of over spending and under taxing put us in this situation. We have been living beyond our means.We have all been recipients of the largess, but now it is time to take steps to toward responsibility.
breaking an addiction is hard.
I think this is a miserable way to deal with our over-spending.
Social security and medicare (as we know them) won't exist either.
Social Security has nothing to do with our debt and is solvent for something like another 30 years.
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I'm too family oriented to leave lol. with this last investment if the banks signs in aug. I would no longer have liquid to move around or abroad. be literally stuck in nyc for the next 2 decades.
Family doesn't want to move and start over again. I was like we have family all over the world. I said Australia or Canada is nice, they were like too hot and cold
(too many paternalist/racist in Australia). I suggested Austin once, they were like too hot and they don't know anyone.
plus they were like distant relatives
. My relatives in europe tell us its bad over there for decades. in china they ran out of places to invest their money. They already invested alot of it in nyc already. *sigh
You guys gonna be stuck with me for the next 2 decades
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Boygabriel said:
I think this is a miserable way to deal with our over-spending.I don't think whynot was implying the cuts have to be hashed out in the next 5 days. But we can't keep running the gov't as is.
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Oh, I thought he was.
Real reforms would be a good way to go.
I do not think this is a good way to force change, and I think we are going to get a much worse deal for all Americans than if we actually tackled the debt. On an issue by issue basis, and also when we were actually negotiating the budget, not when the dinner check actually came.
We put ourselves up against the wall with an impossible ultimatum, and now have to find any solution that works, as opposed to methodically coming to the right solution.
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Cool The Kid said:
I don't think whynot was implying the cuts have to be hashed out in the next 5 days. But we can't keep running the gov't as is.Correct.
....However, we need to make a plan.
Currently both the Democrats and republicans are proposing separate (but radically different) plans that will prevent an addition $1T in debt.
Here are my preferences in rank order:
1. I'd like the democrats plan to win.
#1 doesn't seem possible, so I would settle for:
2. Something between the Democrat and Republican plan.
if #2 isn't possible, I guess I could go for:
3. The republican plan.
if #1, 2, or 3 isn't possible,
I guess I will have to live in a nation that defaults: #4....real reform (like a Balanced Budget amendment, or health care reform, or a society in which their are fewer rich people or few poor people or whatever) isn't going to happen by next week.
While I would love real reform, I don't think we have time to attempt any real reform before next week.
People have been trying to reform health care, get rid of poor people and/or get rid of rich people since beginning of time.
We shouldn't have to wait for the world to meet everyone's conflicting definitions of what is "fair" before we take steps to begin balancing our books.
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you know what they should do, combine both plans lol.
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armchair_warrior said:
you know what they should do, combine both plans lol.of course they should.
...but they have mostly had access to as much money as they want in the past.
If the Tea Party is successful, this will be a big reality change for Washington.
In the past, Washington has been told it can't "pass more taxes", but it has never successfully been told it has to begin to balance the books by "either taxing more or spending less".
Prior valiant efforts have failed.
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Boygabriel said:
Oh, I thought he was.Real reforms would be a good way to go.
I do not think this is a good way to force change, and I think we are going to get a much worse deal for all Americans than if we actually tackled the debt. On an issue by issue basis, and also when we were actually negotiating the budget, not when the dinner check actually came.
We put ourselves up against the wall with an impossible ultimatum, and now have to find any solution that works, as opposed to methodically coming to the right solution.
I don't think anyone, including the Republicans, thought a meaningful deal could be reached in the time frame they allotted. And I'm certain that next Tuesday will come and go with everyone passing the raising of the debt ceiling.
But ultimately, for better or worse, they raised awareness. Let's keep it funky- you would not be thinking about the country's debt if not for this fiasco. The chicks who were crying about Obama interrupting The Bachelorette (may they burn in hell) were not thinking about the country's debt before this fiasco. So now its in the national consciousness, and if Obama wants to get re-elected he needs to figure out a way to make some things happen, whereas before this he could have coasted by enabling business as usual.
Did the Repubs go about it in a malicious, hyperbolic way? Sure. Was it unrealistic to think the problem could be solved overnight? Of course. But again- before this, we were ignoring the iceberg. We haven't turned the wheel yet, but at least now we've been forced to acknowledge it. And in a backwards way, that's real "progress".
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CTK:
If it gets us to a bad place with a more reasonable debt, I personally don't call it much progress.
And if "debt" is your sole goal, the 2008 crisis contributed massively to the "debt", some argue was the primary cause, so you'd have to take that into account.
I think you mean "budget", no?
armchair_warrior said:
you know what they should do, combine both plans lol.Democrats have conceded virtually everything the Republicans have asked for.
The plans don't need to be combined, Republicans need to accept victory.
Simple as that.
There is almost nothing more the Dems can do besides accede to ridiculous demands like rescinding the Health care act.
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ctk wrote: We haven't turned the wheel yet, but at least now we've been forced to acknowledge it. And in a backwards way, that's real "progress".
I'll take progress where I can get it.
I don't want to live a country where a huge percentage of the budget goes to simply paying for the prior debt.
It is good to address a problem before it becomes a crisis, not bad.
BG- Obama's health care act is likely toast. It is just a question of whether he throws in the towel now, or they yank it off him in 2012.
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whynot_31 said:
Correct.....However, we need to make a plan.
Currently both the Democrats and republicans are proposing separate (but radically different) plans that will prevent an addition $1T in debt.
Here are my preferences in rank order:
1. I'd like the democrats plan to win.
#1 doesn't seem possible, so I would settle for:
2. Something between the Democrat and Republican plan.
if #2 isn't possible, I guess I could go for:
3. The republican plan.
if #1, 2, or 3 isn't possible,
I guess I will have to live in a nation that defaults: #4....real reform (like a Balanced Budget amendment, or health care reform, or a society in which their are fewer rich people or few poor people or whatever) isn't going to happen by next week.
While I would love real reform, I don't think we have time to attempt any real reform before next week.
People have been trying to reform health care, get rid of poor people and/or get rid of rich people since beginning of time.
We shouldn't have to wait for the world to meet everyone's conflicting definitions of what is "fair" before we take steps to begin balancing our books.
You choose default over raise the limit like we have 89 times before?
I truly do not understand. I just don't see the urgency for July 2011 to be the time when we have to default or hack away $1T
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whynot_31 said:
People have been trying to reform health care, get rid of poor people and/or get rid of rich people since beginning of time.
We shouldn't have to wait for the world to meet everyone's conflicting definitions of what is "fair" before we take steps to begin balancing our books.
Obama tried and failed b/c the Tea Party called him a socialist.
Maybe if he held the debt ceiling hostage he would have won his reofrm?
Would you have supported that?
This is not an acceptable way to make or force policy. This was not the only option available to us.
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I would like everything to be free, and to have a pony.
...you are talking about options that are not available in our present state of affairs.
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whynot_31 said:
Do you not read?I rank ordered my choices.
By "democrats plan" did you mean "raise the debt ceiling like we always have"?
otherwise I didn't see that option before we got to #4.
Do you write?
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Boygabriel said:
By "democrats plan" did you mean "raise the debt ceiling like we always have"?otherwise I didn't see that option before we got to #4.
Do you write?
The democrats and republican raising the debt ceiling like we always have before without creating a plan, is not an option.
Sorry.
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whynot_31 said:
I would like everything to be free, and to have a pony....you are talking about options that are not available in our present state of affairs.
I want real leadership and real progress.
Your idea of what's possible is very limited.
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whynot_31 said:
The democrats and republican raising the debt ceiling like we always have before without creating a plan, is not an option.Sorry.
No, it really is.
YOU just don't think it should be. It is your OPINION.
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Boygabriel said:
I want real leadership and real progress.Your idea of what's possible is very limited.
Say this to yourself over and over:
"We all share the nation with millions of idiots. Until we get rid of them, or negate their power, we will have to compromise and not reach our version of utopia."
Newsflash: The right views the idiots as being on the left
Newsflash: the left views the idiots as being on the right.
Newsflash: Both the left and the right hate the moderates
Newsflash: The moderates hate both the left and the right
Do we need to review why simply increasing the deficit is not an option in light of the above?
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whynot_31 said:
We all share the nation with millions of idiots.Until we get rid of them, or negate their power, we will have to compromise and not reach our version of utopia.
Your OPINION is that the way forward is compromise.
I view the Republicans as increasingly irrational actors, and compromising with them is death by 1,000 cuts (ha).
I think Obama's sinking presidency is proof of that, or will be by the time all is said and done.
My OPINION on the way forward for this country involves more bold leadership and confrontation. More progressive policies that help people and probably piss off corporate donors, lobbyists and PACs.
We have different OPINIONS.
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...you don't have the power to not compromise.
Good luck.
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