Mr Mayor - I've had enough of the W.I. Day parade through Crown Heights North
Comments
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eastbloc said:
I don't disagree, but if there is not a demonstrable effect on safety and crime in either case, why the push more government control and less personal freedom? Seems far more political than practical to me.I'll be the first to admit we live in an emotional, not a practical country. ....people really want to believe gun control stops senseless violence.
I really want a pony.
Thankfully there are no conflicting rules about me having a right to have a pony, and not being allowed to have a pony in the city.
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whynot_31 said:
I'll be the first to admit we live in an emotional, not a practical country. ....people really want to believe gun control stops senseless violence.(I really want a pony)
_Some_ people do. The majority are for sensible gun laws, which is why concealed-carry laws are growing in popularity.
As city-dwellers in a liberal part of the country, it might seem to us like the majority of people fear and loathe guns, but it's far from the truth.
As someone who once accepted these proclamations at face value, and has since gained a firearms education, the emotional manipulations of the gun-control lobby have become increasingly transparent and perfidious to me.
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WhyFi said:
This "statistic" is so fundamentally flawed that's it's not even close to being pertinent. I can only believe that it's included because it *looks* like the most statistically significant number to back up a position.What is it not pertinent to? Our shooting on Franklin and Park, or one of the potential effects of responsible gun ownership? And am I to take your disbelief as evidence of its absurdity, ipso facto?
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gun control doesn't work lol, it never will work on a local level. if you got 1000 different gun rules from a 1000 different states and cities etc.. never gonna work cause state and city borders are very porous.
pointless to the point where the cops and criminals and rich and connected are the only ones who have guns. leaves the citizens unarmed at the mercy of the criminal/authority figures.
this happened in the LA riots, the cops just stood there while the criminal elements burn down a city. only people fighting back where shop owners.
for example if i wanted to get a gun, would be very difficult and would cost money to hire a lawyer who specialize in getting permit and reasons for having it.
I never understood the liberal fear of guns. If its still in the books might as well equalize yourself with it criminal elements.
gun control only works in a national scale.
if people really want to have a gun. you can.
for example i can make a gun at home right now with parts in probably few mins or if you included harding of the sheet metal probably hour or 2 for a long lasting assault rifle. or i could make a temp assault rifle for short term in 5 mins. hand gun in few mins.
you can have all the legal parts
, metal isn't illegal, but the receiver of gun/rifle etc.. is the gun. receiver is pretty easy to make or have a 80%(which is legal) just need to bend or cut holes etc.. into that in a few mins and slap the parts and put bullets into it...if people ban guns, places like china you would have knife deaths. but with knife deaths, person does have a better chance of self defense. a violent population is gonna find ways to kill regardless.
i'm for total gun control not the half ass measures nyc has. pointless.
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how bout we banned criminals and their kids ? lol i'm for it.
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As you pointed out, you can make a gun easily at a machine shop. So by total gun control, do you mean we should strictly control machine tools as well?
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oh eastloc you got me wrong, you don't need a machine shop lol. i'm talking about simply tools. anyone can make them, its pretty simple. do you think the guys in Afghanistan use machine tools? you can do it with hand tools.
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I'm for total gun national gun control, i really want to use my swords on these dastardly criminals and lop so heads off
. other wise guns for all. either or nothing in between right now doesn't work. -
I'm curious as to the steps that the Mayor thinks should be taken to effectively fight illegal gun ownership.
Otherwise, turning the weekend's events into a referendum on gun control seems to be a way to avoid the needed and real conversations surrounding the factors that play into the violence.
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Armchair Warrior,
You should consider reading "Fist Stick Knife Gun: A Personal History of Violence" by Geoffrey Canada. It's one of the more interesting books I had to in high school. Frankly, it's not a bad read for anyone debating gun violence.
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OnEasternParkway said:
I'm curious as to the steps that the Mayor thinks should be taken to effectively fight illegal gun ownership.Otherwise, turning the weekend's events into a referendum on gun control seems to be a way to avoid the needed and real conversations surrounding the factors that play into the violence.
Yeah I'm not holding my breath on Bloomberg acknowledging how counter-productive it is to treat entire neighborhoods like criminals and just throw everyone in jail.
But hey, he, like every other politician, gets to "look tough" while the real issues of violence go largely unaddressed on the executive level.
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eastbloc said:
What is it not pertinent to? Our shooting on Franklin and Park, or one of the potential effects of responsible gun ownership? And am I to take your disbelief as evidence of its absurdity, ipso facto?What is it not pertinent to? Anything. That 69% of any population personally knows someone who has <fill in the blank>, is irrelevant. You don't know how much overlap there is in social circles - maybe that 69% of the population all knows the same, popular guy. You just can't draw any conclusions from a number like that, so it's worthless.
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Couldn't the parade be moved somewhere else that doesn't so disrupt the lives of residents? Every year there is some gunplay, although this year is of course particularly bad.
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OnEasternParkway said:
I'm curious as to the steps that the Mayor thinks should be taken to effectively fight illegal gun ownership.Otherwise, turning the weekend's events into a referendum on gun control seems to be a way to avoid the needed and real conversations surrounding the factors that play into the violence.
WhyFi said:
What is it not pertinent to? Anything. That 69% of any population personally knows someone who has <fill in the blank>, is irrelevant. You don't know how much overlap there is in social circles - maybe that 69% of the population all knows the same, popular guy. You just can't draw any conclusions from a number like that, so it's worthless.The actual question was more specifically phrased:
"[H]ave any of the criminals you have known personally ever been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim? No, none: 31%, Yes, but only one: 10%, Yes, a few: 48%, Yes, many: 11%, (N) = (1627)"
In conjunction with 34% of felons in the study reporting having _themselves_ been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim, it hardly seems like a stretch.
And it certainly beats Capt. Planet's "do the math" fallacy.
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eastbloc said:
The actual question was more specifically phrased:"[H]ave any of the criminals you have known personally ever been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim? No, none: 31%, Yes, but only one: 10%, Yes, a few: 48%, Yes, many: 11%, (N) = (1627)"
In conjunction with 34% of felons in the study reporting having _themselves_ been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim, it hardly seems like a stretch.
And it certainly beats Capt. Planet's "do the math" fallacy.
No - the specific stat that I highlighted has NO value and thus it adds nothing "in conjunction with" anything else. The percentage of felons *personally* scared off, etc has SOME value, but that's still not telling - where's the flip side of that question? Where's the "have you personally felt empowered by the possession of a firearm in such a way that you mugged/assaulted/etc someone that you wouldn't have, otherwise?"
Making a decision based on no numbers is just as bad as making a decision based on bad numbers.
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There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
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WhyFi said:
Where's the "have you personally felt empowered by the possession of a firearm in such a way that you mugged/assaulted/etc someone that you wouldn't have, otherwise?"This would be a salient point -- if we were discussing whether not it made sense to arm criminals.
I don't think anyone's arguing that, though.
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Mr. Met: or ban criminals from having kids..."
Just how criminal would you have to be to be banned from having kids? That one time you got arrested in college for a little weed possession? A misdemeanor or two? At least a felony?
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WhyFi said:
How is it not salient? Are you suggesting that looser gun control != easier access to guns for felons?I'm saying exactly that. Felons don't care whether they're breaking the law in procuring or manufacturing a weapon.
The fact that in the UK, gun crime has gone up since handguns have been forcibly surrendered is one piece of evidence that supports that view.
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tateinbk said:
Mr. Met: or ban criminals from having kids..."
Just how criminal would you have to be to be banned from having kids? That one time you got arrested in college for a little weed possession? A misdemeanor or two? At least a felony?
how about when you gunned someone down on the street? not every issue is a slippery slope.
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I'm sickened by the violence, but I also think the parade is unfairly blamed for some of it. Police started shutting down the parade at 4pm; the worst incident happened 5 hours later and, if this Patch article is accurate (http://prospectheights.patch.com/articles/neighbors-react-to-last-nights-shooting), the shooter lived on that block. Just as the murder at the BBQ in East Flatbush Sunday night had nothing to do with J'Ouvert, although it has been reported as happening "during J'Ouvert."
That's not to dismiss the violence that IS associated with the parade, though. I don't know what needs to be done to make the parade safer but I do know that I saw a ton of alcohol being illegally sold along the parade route yesterday.
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As someone who has lived in the neighborhood for over 5 years, I say do away with the parade altogether. If this were a one time occurrence, I would feel differently. But gun violence on the day of the parade has become an expectation as opposed to an unfortunate byproduct of amassing thousands in an isolated area to "celebrate" i.e. drink. Of course there are those who look at the West Indian Day Parade as what it should ideally be viewed:as a true celebration and recognition of some of the many cultures that make New York the 'melting pot' is has historically been. The meshing of cultures that make us New Yorkers feel all warm and gooey inside... And I feel sorry for the many, the MAJORITY of people who are undermined by the violence that always seems to erupt on this day. I know so many friends and neighbors who take great pride in the appreciation of their culture. But this parade, in the minds of many who have either witnessed, heard of, or been directly affected by the almost certain violence that continually sullies this day may want to stop and consider what is lost and what is gained when people realistically feel they have to worry for their safety in order to partake in such a celebration. You can say 'move the parade elsewhere' (as I've heard many hipster newbies to the neighborhood whine), or curtail drinking (that should be easy). You can talk about gun control (uh huh), more cops (not a proven deterrent by any means), etc. But from a utilitarian standpoint, when you pit the disappointment of thousands against the potential death or injury of one innocent person, I err on the side of caution. Again, this is only because violence on this day has become the norm. If it were that next year there was no West Indian Day Parade, perhaps the thousands that would be let down by this would come up with better solutions than us, the internet pundits, how to make this parade feasibly safer.
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Unlike many blogs and newspapers, this blog is collecting intelligently expressed viewpoints on the subject:
http://thebrooklynink.com/2011/09/06/28284-crown-heights-shooting/
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eastbloc said:
I'm saying exactly that. Felons don't care whether they're breaking the law in procuring or manufacturing a weapon.The fact that in the UK, gun crime has gone up since handguns have been forcibly surrendered is one piece of evidence that supports that view.
No, gun crime going up in the wake of a ban doesn't support or reject that theory. You're assuming that, before and after then ban, the number of felons using a gun to commit a crime was/is proportional to the number of felons in possession of a gun just as you assumed that the ban made gun-totin' criminals more brazen. Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. To know if access to guns is easier or more difficult before/after, you'd have to poll the bad guys and I don't think that they're going to be too helpful in that regard.
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Also, if you're going to keep citing these numbers, why don't you post'em up?
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Question of the day. Why is there fatal gun violence at the West Indian Day Parade every year and not at the African Street Festival (now known as the International African Arts Festival)? Same borough, same demographic...but somehow no one ever gets shot at the Festival.
What's the difference? Brooklyn, chime in!
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CLAYFILMS said:
Question of the day. Why is there fatal gun violence at the West Indian Day Parade every year and not at the African Street Festival (now known as the International African Arts Festival)? Same borough, same demographic...but somehow no one ever gets shot at the Festival.What's the difference? Brooklyn, chime in!
I don't know much about the former, but I imagine it's a matter of scale (size and duration), and possibly inebriation?
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