Mr Mayor - I've had enough of the W.I. Day parade through Crown Heights North

CLAYFILMS said:

Question of the day. Why is there fatal gun violence at the West Indian Day Parade every year and not at the African Street Festival (now known as the International African Arts Festival)? Same borough, same demographic...but somehow no one ever gets shot at the Festival.

What's the difference? Brooklyn, chime in!

It's only the same demographic if you think ALL people of African ancestry are the same and because you've come to that conclusion it's pretty clear you've been to one and not the other or neither of these events.

Ishtar said:

It's only the same demographic if you think ALL people of African ancestry are the same and because you've come to that conclusion it's pretty clear you've been to one and not the other or neither of these events.

Ishtar-

Clayfilms might be asking the question to see what WE will answer, not because she thinks everyone who checks "black" on the census is the same.

She could have her own beliefs as to why violence is absent from the African Arts Festival, yet present at the West Indian Carnival.

What say you Clayfilms?

I don't believe that one can rationally make the case for any kind of freedom without the proposed evidence remaining disputable and a reasonably meritable argument being possible to the contrary.

My case is that in the absence of compelling evidence of the social value of limiting an individual's freedom, curtailing that freedom is wrong. It's conceivable that, say, Joseph Stalin might plausibly disagree with me.

At some point, one has to either turn to principles, or sit on the fence poking holes in everyone else's arguments while holding no view of their own out of fear of it receiving the same sort of treatment they dish out.

I really hope that politicians can put votes aside in favor for public safty. Every year the parade is associated with violence and death. If the city cant keep residents safe then the parade should be done with.

Firstly, there was a lot of sloppy reporting that attributed violence that happened citywide to the parade. Violence in East New York, BedStuy, Harlem and the Bronx were lumped together and clearly were unrelated events but were used to add a body count to what happens when "those people get together". Two shootings (too many) happened yesterday at the parade. The shooting on Park Place and Franklin happened at 9 pm and was because the shooter had a longstanding grudge with the person he targeted. This could have happened during a heat wave or any other weekend during the summer.

I really dont understand people who say stop the WI Day parade. Do you not hear the news about people getting shot in Crown Heights the other 364 days per year? The same people shooting on Labor Day are the same people shooting people on other days-- they are hopeless, crazy or just dont give a fuck. Unless you deal with the fundamental causes of the violence then its just a bandaid. And cancelling the parade-would be a bandaid.

I have been going to this parade, the International African Arts Festival and the African parade since I have lived in the city. The WI day is notable for the worst crowd control I have ever seen. If NYPD know this is a problem event then why are forces so poorly deployed? Over one million people and how many policeman are there?

Case in point, there were at least 2 pairs ( or more) of policeman on each block from Rogers to Washington and there was a pair of cops on each block on the side streets from about Park Place to EP primarily controlling car traffic and watching barricades. As soon as you got to EP the cops seemed to disappear. But somehow the cops would all appear and walk in a straight line carrying their orange plastic barrier and were focused on making sure paradegoers didnt cross the street or jump in and start dancing between floats. I didnt see any police on the service road or the center grassy strip of EP. From Rogers to New York Avenue I didnt see any cops on EP. It doesnt make any sense.

Yet they all came running from the parade route ( from between the barricades) as soon as we heard the pops of gunfire-jumping over the fences and going to the area we were all running away from. Their crowd control does not inspire confidence.

Also I am expecting that shortly there will be an inquest into the shooting at Franklin and Park Place. Eyewitness accounts dont match up with the police version of events that the shooter killed the innocent bystander.

Incidents of violence in the areas encompassing the parade happen at random (and far too often). But incidents of violence on the day of the parade seem almost certain.

As I'm typing, helicopters are flying over my apartment for the fifth day in a row. This parade is not for the neighborhood; it's for people who flock from elsewhere, happy to make Crown Heights and beyond a playground with, in their mind's eye, no repercussions.

I've lived here nine years. After this parade weekend, reaching ten no longer seems appealing.

"That neck of the woods" or your neck of the woods? Forgive me, but if you moved to "the northwest"(?) 23 years ago, why are you weighing in on what goes on in our neighborhood? Were these the shots heard round the world? Or are you trying to make this about the 'violence of the underclass'? I know plenty of people who enjoy the parade every year who would resent being called underclass. Plenty of working and middle class families who simply do not want the elevated threat of violence escalating in from of their homes or in front of their children.

PittieCity said:

are you trying to make this about the 'violence of the underclass'? I know plenty of people who enjoy the parade every year who would resent being called underclass. Plenty of working and middle class families who simply do not want the elevated threat of violence escalating in from of their homes or in front of their children.

I do visit every few years.

I believe the problem is that the underclass element that is in the minority in that neighborhood engages in savage behavior that outweighs the impact of the majority hard-working poor, working, lower middle, and middle middle class people who live in the area and that behavior as we have heard about or witnessed impacts upon innocent people like Ms. Gay. I'm not referring to the people who don't engage in such conduct.

I'm just saying to people who can't stand the burning caldron of violence and disorder to get the hell out if you can. To those that like the neighborhood in spite of its problems, that's your choice and I respect it.

i believe that those who refuse to believe the WIP/festivities doesn't create problems with violence are afraid that by saying so (or thinking so) they'll be perceived as bigots.

i don't believe canceling the parade is the answer, but a culture of drinking and irresponsibility in a nabe with heightened violent crime stats.

we go through this debate and these issues every single year. i think it's time that the parade organizers got together with law enforcement and community leaders took look at why there are these problems, and take responsibility to keep the events safer. lots of people drinking for hours + heat and extreme crowding + hundreds of half-naked women on display = a recipe for trouble. there seems to be an acceptance that bad things will happen, and i want to know why the people in charge aren't working to change that

It's not the parade itself. It's the concentration. Put a huge amount of people together, stir in alcohol, pride and guns and you get 364 days lumped into one day (or one weekend for that matter). It's just shocking to most because of the concentration over these few days, but this is nothing different from what happens spread across the year in Brooklyn or in CHN. It's just so sad that innocent bystanders and their families have to suffer.

If only the youth would understand that a gun isn't an extension of your manhood, but a reduction of your life. But there are no good fathers to show them what's right or wrong, so it's a vicious cycle with no end in sight. The day Western culture convinced the black woman that she doesn't need a strong father and husband by her side, is the day the black man died.

xlizellx wrote: I think another issue is that many of the parade-goers are from out of town. The celebrations are for 4 days - meaning it makes sense for people to travel up for a long weekend full of family, events, etc. Apparently one of the two shooters at Park and Franklin wasn't from the area. I'm unsure if other events get as many out-of-towners -- excluding Thanksgiving day parade (way to early in the morning for me to ever attend, so I can't comment) and New Years Eve in Times Square (which I have been to and the police are intense) -- and that may change dynamics as well. I know a lot of friends who have full-houses during the Labor Day Weekend because of people visiting Brooklyn for the parade, etc.

Maybe if the event was shortened to just J'vourt and the parade, there'd be less people traveling. Or if the other events at the museum happened throughout the year and not during just one weekend it could cut down on the out-of-town element that can often times lead to issues.

In addition to the publicized shootings, it seems there were a lot of armed people at the parade:

NYT wrote: The police have tied three of the shootings and five victims to the West Indian Day Parade, and say the tally could have been higher had officers not seized 14 illegal guns and arrested 16 people during J’Ouvert.

The parade, however, was unrelated to the gunfire on Park Place, an unusually designed street where black iron fencing separates the sunken roadway from extra-wide sidewalks.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/nyregion/shooting-in-crown-heights-part-of-violent-weekend.html?hpw

We will probably never know for sure, but I find it hard to believe that the people who brought guns to the parade were from out of town.

...if they flew to NYC, it would be difficult to travel with a gun.

...if they drove here from someplace they could certainly bring a gun, but would people from outside of the area have the same urge to protect their local cred?

Do I "know these things"? Of course not. But my hunch is that most of the folks who make trouble are from right here in Brooklyn.

But lets focus on those out of town folks for a minute.

The parade is a huge economic force in the city. In addition to people flying into the various airports, folks stay at the local hotels and eat and drink at NYC bars and restaurants.

I think if people try to cancel the carnival or modify in such a way that out-of-town folks do not come, they will find that powerful forces in the business community will rise up to support it.

The parade has major business sponsors and a lot of political support, in part because of the economic activity it generates.

Given the state of our economy, New York City will continue to need this "new money from out of town" even more next year than it did this year.

Through out life, safety is routinely balanced against profit.

I'm really troubled by the association of violence, alcoholism with West Indian culture generally. The problem isn't this parade, the problem is how people respond to this parade.

This same event takes place in Toronto (which has the largest Carribean carnival on the continent). I know people who religously attend both events and they say the entire city of Toronto opens their arms to guests coming to the events.

And yet, this event has the same problems with the "appearance of violence" as the WIDP.

This article lays out the perceptions of Caribana vs. the realities and suggests that many of the issues are related to the media portrayals of events being linked to Caribana when in actuality they have no relationship.

Similarly, the event that took place on Park Place was the result of a dispute between two neighbors that lived on the same block. There is no indication that either person attended the parade, no evidence that they were involved in any drinking or drug use at the parade, and all evidence points to the likelihood that the same tragic set of events could have occurred on any day, and yet this shooting is being cast as "parade" violence and the culmination of a "violent" event. We need to be asking ourselves why these connections are being made?

I'm really troubled by the association of violence, alcoholism with West Indian culture generally. The problem isn't this parade, the problem is how people respond to this parade.

This same event takes place in Toronto (which has the largest Carribean carnival on the continent). I know people who religously attend both events and they say the entire city of Toronto opens their arms to guests coming to the events.

And yet, this event has the same problems with the "appearance of violence" as the WIDP.

This article lays out the perceptions of Caribana vs. the realities and suggests that many of the issues are related to the media portrayals of events being linked to Caribana when in actuality they have no relationship.

Similarly, the event that took place on Park Place was the result of a dispute between two neighbors that lived on the same block. There is no indication that either person attended the parade, no evidence that they were involved in any drinking or drug use at the parade, and all evidence points to the likelihood that the same tragic set of events could have occurred on any day, and yet this shooting is being cast as "parade" violence and the culmination of a "violent" event. We need to be asking ourselves why these connections are being made?

From a different thread

homeowner said:

Okay, so I took a quick look at that map. If you look at the "Parade Area" as extending from Atlantic to the South, Empire to the North, GAP to the East and Howard to the west (and those are pretty generous boundaries):

1) It appears that all weekend there were a total of 11 incidents (10 shots fired, 1 stabbing).

2) Out of the 10 shots fired, one lists no victim.

3) Three of those shootings occurred either Friday or Saturday

4)Five of them occurred after 5pm (the parade started shutting down at 4pm)

5)Only two actually occurred on the parade route (and one of those needs to be double checked as the text lists the location as East New York Avenue and Eastern Parkway, which would not be along the route at all)

In order to get from "correlation" to "causation", we would need to show that

seeing women showing lots of skin

+ listening to loud music

+ eating jerk chicken

-------------------------------------

creates violence

These are the "sanctioned" parts of the event.

The other things one sees at the parade (alcohol, weed, machismo, violence etc) are unsanctioned.

It is unfortunate that the organizers have to constantly find a way in which to convince the public that the vast majority of the attendees wish to have an event in which the sanctioned events will be prominent, and the unsanctioned events will be effectively discouraged.

They have found a way to do it for 44 years.

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