Mr Mayor - I've had enough of the W.I. Day parade through Crown Heights North

I compared the African Street Festival (now known as the International African Arts Festival) and the West Indian Day Parade because they are both very large scale (upwards of 500,000 people), multi-day, cultural events that take place during holiday weekends (Fourth of July & Labor Day) and are attended by a large percentage of people from the African Diaspora that live in NYC. Both events feature loud music, very large crowds, young men and women (employed and unemployed), food and drink vendors, and take place in working class neighborhoods (BedStuy for at least 30 years and Crown Heights).

And even though I may be completely wrong, the following are my observations as a life time resident of Brooklyn.

The largest difference that I see in both of these events is that the IAAF is almost completely organized, policed, and managed by members of the community who have a vested interest in the creation and sustenance of an event that entertains and empower families, and spotlights various aspects of North, South, East and Western African arts and culture.

Unfortunately, the West Indian Day parade has basically become a free outdoor orgy with music. Also, it is policed by an underpaid, overworked police force that largely does not live in the community that it is policing. Over the past five years, the crowd control methods at the West Indian Day parade have become maddening and are in my opinion created to actually prevent people from navigating the parade on foot. It seems like since Bloomberg became mayor, the NYPD has created an environment in which it becomes dangerous to try and cross the street. Why would you put barricades at every intersection that make it impossible to go east or west on the Parkway?? The lack of respect of life that more than enough of the attendees of the West Indian Day parade have coupled with wanton drinking and drug abuse, an inadequate and apathetic police force, and straight up stupid crowd control methods make this parade a recipe for disaster.

But back to my comparison. Unlike the West Indian Day Parade, no one is allowed to sell "nutcrackers" at the International African Arts Festival. Why? Because there is a private vendor marshall crew (made up of men & women hired from the community) and if a legal vendor was caught doing that they'd be thrown out (and would lose a costly deposit). If an illegal vendor was caught doing that they'd also be thrown out.

There is a private sanitation team (made up of men & women hired from the community) that keeps the the International African Arts Festival from looking like the slums of a 3rd world country. And mind you, it is a festival that takes place over the course of 3 days from morning until evening.

There is a private security team (made up of men & women hired from the community) that actually has space to walk through the International African Arts Festival and make sure that women aren't getting groped, weed and illegal alcohol are not being sold, and people aren't being stabbed.

I say all this to say, you have two events that may seem similar. They are both urban, music and arts festivals that draw large crowds and have the potential for violence that any event can have when you have large amounts of people in one place. But one event is actually "owned" by the community that attends it and self-polices in a way that has kept it violence free for the past 25 years that I have attended it.

The sad thing is it wasn't always this way and hopefully something can be done.

Unfortunately, the West Indian Day parade has basically become a free outdoor orgy with music. Also, it is policed by an underpaid, overworked police force that largely does not live in the community that it is policing. Over the past five years, the crowd control methods at the West Indian Day parade have become maddening and are in my opinion created to actually prevent people from navigating the parade on foot. It seems like since Bloomberg became mayor, the NYPD has created an environment in which it becomes dangerous to try and cross the street. Why would you put barricades at every intersection that make it impossible to go east or west on the Parkway?? The lack of respect of life that more than enough of the attendees of the West Indian Day parade have coupled with wanton drinking and drug abuse, an inadequate and apathetic police force, and straight up stupid crowd control methods make this parade a recipe for disaster.

Didn't want to repost the whole thing, but you pretty much nailed it Clay.

Thanks for the clarification Clayfilms.

I can't say I have ever been to the Arts Festival, but it seems like it would also attract a different clientele based on the nature of the events offered.

....meaning that by establishing clear rules and norms, some people may skip the Arts Festival entirely because they know they will be unable to "act up", and others may skip it because it does not meet their definition of a fun afternoon.

I assume the Carnival will occur again next year, but fear that this year's events will cause it to be skipped by people who are attracted to events like the Arts Festival.

Causing it to become even less

Paraphrase Clayfilms wrote: actually "owned" the community that attends it and even less policed in a way that keeps it violence free

I am not in favor of cancelling the parade. It seems like a wonderful set of cultural events that is a lot of fun for a lot of people, and which contributes to NYC's economy. I hope it happens next year.

But I hope it happens in a much different way. I think it is more than obvious that the context of the entire festival - which includes 4-5 straight days (some of which are literally round the clock) of partying, noise, openly tolerated excessive public drinking and drug use along with the crowding and the heat and the end-of-summer vibe - has become a real . It just doesn't work safely and it probably wouldn't work anywhere. But it especially does not work in this area, given the historical tension between police and the residents, which makes regulation difficult, and given the prevalence of illegal weapons and violence.

I think it is very troubling that supporters are arguing that "many of the events [are] totally unrelated to the parade." No one is saying that the parade itself is the entire cause of the violence - that would be silly. But to deny any relation between the parade (and its accessory events, whether official or unofficial) and the public unruliness happening *all around the neighborhood* *all weekend* really strains credibility. Just because the parade ends at 4pm and ends at GAP doesn't mean people suddenly sober up or that tensions suddenly dissipate by 9pm two blocks away.

The fact that some of these same people seem to be suggesting that there is nothing more parade organizers could do makes me think that they would rather sacrifice a few innocent neighbors than change one thing about the parade. As a resident with small kids, that's pretty troubling to me.

if someone isn't on a parade float with a machine gun, it's not the parade's fault

Trumystic said:

You make no sense. What culture of drinking? Do you routinely see drunk people on a Saturday night wandering around Crown Heights outside of 4 days in September? If so where and when?

I sure have!

But mostly, they're hipsters, so I guess that doesn't have anything to do with this conversation.

Ah, but when a adult commits a crime, do we punish their parent for the abusive childhood that is "related" to creating said criminal?

....the approach of Clayfilms seems to have my vote.

I do not think the parent/child analogy is appropriate. If there is a bar in the neighborhood that is routinely spilling out drunk and unruly people at 4am, or if an abandoned home has become host to drug addict squatters, then the community comes together to try to address the situation in a way that attempts to provide better safety and quality of life. I am not sure why you would view potential measures to provide better safety to yourselves and your neighbors as "punishment."

homeowner said:

I'm really troubled by the association of violence, alcoholism with West Indian culture generally. The problem isn't this parade, the problem is how people respond to this parade.

This same event takes place in Toronto (which has the largest Carribean carnival on the continent). I know people who religously attend both events and they say the entire city of Toronto opens their arms to guests coming to the events.

And yet, this event has the same problems with the "appearance of violence" as the WIDP.

This article lays out the perceptions of Caribana vs. the realities and suggests that many of the issues are related to the media portrayals of events being linked to Caribana when in actuality they have no relationship.

Similarly, the event that took place on Park Place was the result of a dispute between two neighbors that lived on the same block. There is no indication that either person attended the parade, no evidence that they were involved in any drinking or drug use at the parade, and all evidence points to the likelihood that the same tragic set of events could have occurred on any day, and yet this shooting is being cast as "parade" violence and the culmination of a "violent" event. We need to be asking ourselves why these connections are being made?

You're talking about Canada. They have more guns per person (as in ownership) and yet much less violence. It's a whole different mentality up there. Even there public bathrooms are spotless. Show me a public bathroom in the States that's spotless. And let me remind people that until the NYPD started cracking down on St. Paddy's Day. the drunkenness and violence associated with the parade was notorious. And being committed by a lot of off-duty city workers mixed in with the usual civilians.

okay, then we are in agreement, at least, that various steps could be taken that might enhance the safety of the neighborhood during the parade. i have been perplexed by some of the discussion here and on brownstoner that seems opposed to making any changes at all.

homeowner, the violence could have happened on any other day, but it did not. the incident, by all reports, started earlier in the day of the parade, a few blocks from the parade, on a street that neighbors have described as normally quiet but negatively affected by the atmosphere of the parade (see http://prospectheights.patch.com/articles/neighbors-react-to-last-nights-shooting), after a series of other violent incidents that took place either at the parade or near it. you are asking us to remove the incident away from its actual context.

it is quite strange to suggest 1) this area is always highly prone to this kind of violence; and 2) that this somehow absolves the parade of the need for any changes. to the contrary, if 1) is true, then the parade always highly prone to the same violence, and it therefore should be moved or not happen at all.

Durable, safe, open viewing space is in short supply in NYC.

For example, Central Park and Prospect park rarely host any events of this size (around 600k people) because they are difficult to control and police. I also suspect that the park would also be trashed by the shear number of people; regardless of the "demographics".

One of the benefits of having it along Eastern Parkway is that there is a reduced risk of crowding and stampedes, and the asphalt sweeps up nicely. Another benefit is that public transportation is plentiful.

Would the events be calmer/safer if they were moved to a durable location like the incredibly under utilized, Floyd Bennett Field?

Would the police allow more movement?

Would the dynamic between the police and the crowd be less fraught?

Would the aforementioned "gun shooting knuckleheads" leave their guns at home, be less intoxicated, or stay home altogether?

Could the transportation problems be overcome?

Would 600k people still get to have a good time?

Would people still have a good enough time that they flew from all over the world to attend, injecting desperately needed $ into our city?

This doesn't mean that an a-hole or two wouldn't bring a gun to such an event.

Correct. There will always be idiots.

If we only go to events in which can be certain there will not be idiots, we will spend all of our time alone.

For some, not even this will work

Trumystic, no one is attributing the violence solely to the parade. Not even the person you quoted.

Right, no person interested in serious discussion is making this argument. Just the same way that no one is suggesting that West Indian culture or the parade is connected to every day in which multiple incidents of violence have occurred. But I have seen purportedly serious people refusing to acknowledge that the parade has anything to do with it, and that is extremely troubling. We don't need to decide the exact parameters of what is connected to the parade and what is not before having a real discussion, but there does need to be intellectual honesty from all parties (yes, including the police). Given the politics involved, I'm skeptical that will happen, but hope springs eternal.

^^ that was a response to trumystic.