Mr Mayor - I've had enough of the W.I. Day parade through Crown Heights North
Comments
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I posted this link on another thread, but now think this thread is more appropriate.
Here are the ideas of a person highly invested in changing the parade's image:
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thelambchop said:
okay, then we are in agreement, at least, that various steps could be taken that might enhance the safety of the neighborhood during the parade. i have been perplexed by some of the discussion here and on brownstoner that seems opposed to making any changes at all.homeowner, the violence could have happened on any other day, but it did not. the incident, by all reports, started earlier in the day of the parade, a few blocks from the parade, on a street that neighbors have described as normally quiet but negatively affected by the atmosphere of the parade (see http://prospectheights.patch.com/articles/neighbors-react-to-last-nights-shooting), after a series of other violent incidents that took place either at the parade or near it. you are asking us to remove the incident away from its actual context.
it is quite strange to suggest 1) this area is always highly prone to this kind of violence; and 2) that this somehow absolves the parade of the need for any changes. to the contrary, if 1) is true, then the parade always highly prone to the same violence, and it therefore should be moved or not happen at all.
My issue is that this violence is specifically in the news being linked to the parade and the "culture" of west indians, which fails to take into account all of the shootings that clearly had no direct relationship to this parade, and ignores all of the gun violence that occurs in this neighborhood on a daily basis. I never said that the parade did not need to change, I merely posited that the media coverage of this and other West Indian events is not in keeping with the reality of those two facts.
I live blocks away from where the shooting happened and there are stupid fights that end up in gunplay several times a year. Canceling the parade isn't going to stop that and is only pretending like you've done something to improve the quality of life in this neighborhood.
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I had a very interesting conversation with a "person somewhat involved in organizing the parade" today. (I do not have their permission to identify them)
In sharp contrast to the perspective that the parade brings violent people into Crown Heights, the person stated that the parade should move to a new location, "so not as many violent people from the neighborhoods surrounding Eastern Parkway attend".
S/he believed this would allow the people who worked hard to create the event and flew from all over the world to enjoy it more.
S/he asserted that even some of the Carnival's lead organizers would like to move the parade to a different venue to make it "more cultural, and less about boom boxes on trucks".
However, s/he felt they would likely be unsuccessful.
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Trumystic said:
I think it is very troubling that supporters are arguing that "many of the events [are] totally unrelated to the parade." No one is saying that the parade itself is the entire cause of the violence - that would be silly. But to deny any relation between the parade (and its accessory events, whether official or unofficial) and the public unruliness happening *all around the neighborhood* *all weekend* really strains credibility. Just because the parade ends at 4pm and ends at GAP doesn't mean people suddenly sober up or that tensions suddenly dissipate by 9pm two blocks away.
Yes many people are saying that the event is the cause of the violence. You may not be but there are lots of reactionary people saying the parade is responsible for the gun violence hence cancel the parade. Yet no one can explain where to draw the line. Is the parade only responsible for/contributing to violence that happens near the parade route? Or do we include violence that happens in other parts of Brooklyn like Fort Greene, BedStuy, East New York? Do we include Queens (like Jamaica), Harlem and the Bronx as news reports of this weekend did?
If we are attributing the violence that happened in NYC this weekend to the parade then what do we make of other violent weekends in the city (NB this isnt an exhaustive list just a quick google search):
*Memorial Day 2011 (8 killed) http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-05-31/news/29621722_1_murder-tally-gun-violence-random-violence
*June 2011 (3 killed, 21 injured) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304070104576396124038810018.html
* April 2010 (4 shot) http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7367735
* August 2010 (14 shot) http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/bronx/14-shot-in-violent-night-in-the-bronx-20100807-ac
*October 2010(3 killed, 3 shot) http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/big_apple_bloody_weekend_yxm73HDEaabzssfarhn0rOThere werent any West Indian parades on those weekends.
I am not saying that crowd control at the parade cant be improved- it clearly can. But let us separate scapegoating the parade, parade organizers, West Indian culture and a serious discussion of what can be done to improve public safety of West Indian paradegoers and more importantly the safety of denizens of Crown Heights and environs.
impeccable logic
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there is no reason that the parade should be moved. The 44 years it has enjoyed should be continued. The people who form the parade should be asked to integrate some American standards. The parade should be one event. Not a childrens parade, which is very borderline it's already pg or pg13.
The adult parade is completely adult, sex,drugs,drinking guns and crazy acting out of things that children,families should not have to deal with. The parades should be combined to a one day event. The current combination of 1 event that by design involves all night drinking and partying for the days leading up to the parade is a huge flaw.
The event should be like all others,a few hours and then resume using the streets for foot and car traffic rather than drunk people standing around waiting to get shot. The city and the police have some responsibility for the event because of the format they allow. Like Kelly said its very hard to police the event, so make it smaller and easier by design.
Will gangbangers and other shitheads still attend and try to make a name for themselves? yes but some changes can make a big difference. If West Indian parades must have excessive drinking and sex play then maybe they can rent a venue like the Javits, see if gun toters will pay 40 or 50 bucks and get past a metal detectors . We cant allow an event to degenerate so low that nobody asks for mission statement. If that is to celebrate and showcase West Indian culture and customs great, but lots of the floats and costumes and behavior don't do either. -
These are quotes from this thread:
- referring to parade:I am sick of celebrating what is to me outright racism
andIt's a shame that people can not party sober, but the culture encourages drinking and drugs, so what can you do
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- West Indian culture asa culture of drinking and irresponsibility
-the West Indian Day parade has basically become a free outdoor orgy with music
-The adult parade is completely adult, sex,drugs,drinking guns and crazy acting out of things that children,families should not have to deal with
andIf West Indian parades must have excessive drinking and sex play...
This thread cant really go lower. Racial and cultural stereotypes are thrown around and very few of you challenge these characterizations while many more of you register agreement or are complicit by your silence. Thanks homeowner and a few others who spoke up-its appreciated. Peace out.
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Regardless of whether one feels the parade's reputation is accurate or deserved, I hope the organizers manager to change people's perception of it.
Although the event has violence in the past, the HUGE majority of the persons it attracts continue to be "desirable attendees".
...but I fear a downward spiral. If too many people conclude attending the parade puts them at unacceptable risk of encountering violence or general idiocy, we will end up with a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The organizers of the parade seem well aware of this risk, and after this year, the risk seems larger.
Regardless of whether a negative perception is valid or not ....it is a threat.
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there is nothing wrong with pointing out cultural problems. in fact, i'd argue that solutions are impossible without honestly addressing them.
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The idea of everyone who is from a particular region of the world or neighborhood having a shared culture is quite fraught.
Yes, I may have some interests and habits in common with those who have similar characteristics as me, but to assume that I am somehow able or responsible for controlling their criminal behavior is fanciful.
As a result, I have concluded that I can not expect people who merely share some characteristics to have significant power or influence over the criminals who share some of the same characteristics.
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sociological statistics do exist and they do refer to actual social phenomena. of course no one says that EVERYONE from a particular culture is X, but there are trends and statistics.
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mr. met said:
sociological statistics do exist and they do refer to actual social phenomena. of course no one says that EVERYONE from a particular culture is X, but there are trends and statistics.I agree.
But I am discussing the degree of power and responsibility that may stem from merely being assumed to share a culture.
For example, in the minds of many people, I look a lot like and belong to the same culture as Glenn Beck.
...yet I have accepted that I am powerless over his behavior, and can not make him shut up.
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i didn't read all the replies, but my 2 cents. then run and duck for cover.
the policing of the parade and the neighborhood before hand is stifled. the higher ups don't let the po-po do their job. They full well, with their CIA counter terrorism training know who all the potential hot heads are. there is a concerted effort over the last few years to allow the violence to escalate in an effort to get the parade abolished totally. Let's not forget that it is alleged the bullet that killed the woman came from a police weapon. Over 70 shots were fired. Thats at least 5 cops unloading at random in such a crowd.
If the beat walkers were allowed to do their job by the brass and corral up the pockets of idiots known to them before hand, it would have been a better day. -
I think that there needs to be a higher standard of clearance that those who orchestrate the parade should achieve. Given the large expected crowds, and the sad acceptance that 'there will be blood', I think that the entity which holds this parade needs to meet a higher expectation. Namely, I believe that these tractor-trailers need to be banned. I believe that they pose a safety hazard, a noise pollution hazard, and there is too much collateral damage associated with them.
In conversation with a friend of mine, he told me that the entity responsible for the parade is really 'rag-tag' in their organization. I don't know if such is the case, but it has spurred me to investigate how one applies for permission to have a parade, and if there is some way of doing a better job of policing this. There simply has to be.
I think this should be something concerned citizenry of all the adjoining communities through which the parade travels should be made aware of. I am eager to know what City Council members think about this, what the police commissioner thinks about this, and what do organizers of the parade think about this. There is too much garbage, too much noise, and too much un-policed socially aberrant behavior that needs to be stanched at the root.
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Several months have now passed, but an article appears in today's 12/6/2011 NYT stating that there was a Facebook page in which posters purported to be members of the NYPD, and discussed how much they disliked the parade.
The comments, as well as the article should be read. While I wish some of the viewpoints/opinions/comments would magically go away, I can't say I find any of the views surprising or shocking.
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Racist NYPD cops.
I am not surprised in the least.
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It's really depressing and upsetting.
One would hope the NYPD would have a higher standard for decency of employees.
But it doesn't.
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Boygabriel said:
It's really depressing and upsetting.One would hope the NYPD would have a higher standard for decency of employees.
But it doesn't.
Sounds to me like it does:
"Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s deputy commissioner for public information, said he learned of the Facebook group from a reporter and would refer the issue to the department’s Internal Affairs Bureau."
What more would you have them do? Administer regular political correctness exams?
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ha.
As if this is going to result in anything more than loss of a few vacation days and maybe mandated "racial empathy" class or some b.s.
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Some cops seemed to be getting along fine with the parade goers:
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The police did this to themselves.
Today it's okay to let people smoke pot and drink? NOT. No more so than when when 1 of your lackey pals gets a ticket or a DWI and it's dismissed because of a PBA card.
The very few people that benefit from all the laws excused are a drop in any bucket the Carib bucket or the Police pale.It's the story of pot in the city, bust everybody all the time have a small problem, bust only brown and black people with weed and have a problem directly proportional to the busted population.
Funny how all the big parties are not good for anybody. Street fairs have pros selling socks.belts and a cheesy Arepas but nothing to do with the community.
The San Gennaro fest is a mess, nothing religious, nothing Italian only Carnies selling crap.*no money for the city!!Now we have a 3-4 day drunk fest that represents 1000's of islands and when the stew is mixed with guns,booze and stupidity nobody likes it.
No matter where the parade is held, make it the same as the everybody else's, Irish, Germans, Puerto Ricans just one day of fun and some fuck ups. Move it to the city so it rises and falls like all other parade mobs.
Don't make Caribbean people the problem make the duration, format and location of the parade the difference and why it is problematic. -
Jack Krohn said:
Some cops seemed to be getting along fine with the parade goers:I'm guessing BG is okay with this type of unprofessional behavior.
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eastbloc said:
I'm guessing BG is okay with this type of unprofessional behavior.Do you need me to break down the different ways something can be "unprofessional"? Such as 'racists' vs 'dirty dancing'?
Probably not.
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catwalker wrote: Don't make Caribbean people the problem make the duration, format and location of the parade the difference and why it is problematic.
Anyone think anything will be different next year?
whynot_31 said:
Regardless of whether one feels the parade's reputation is accurate or deserved, I hope the organizers manage to change people's perception of it.Although the event has violence associated with it, the HUGE majority of the persons it attracts continue to be "desirable attendees".
...but I fear a downward spiral. If too many people conclude attending the parade puts them at unacceptable risk of encountering violence or general idiocy, we will end up with a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The organizers of the parade seem well aware of this risk, and after this year, the risk seems larger.
Regardless of whether a negative perception is valid or not ....it is a threat.
It isn't a question in which one can really answer, but:
At what point does this event become perceived as one in which there are "too many armed, ignorant people" (by which I include select parade goers and police), so that a tipping point is reached and the "desirable attendees" stay home?
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Concern trolling!
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I think there are some simple fixes that could change the parade for the better. Here is my list in no particular order:
1) The parade should return to its roots and make floats available for steel drums and bands only. If someone wants to perform, they need to have a band on the float PLAYING MUSIC, and not the flatbeds with stacks of speakers and a loop of the same song. They could do something similar to the Thanksgiving Day parade where performances of recorded music occur in front of the reviewing stands only.
2)The parade organizers should develop their own volunteer security group that marches with the parade in "event staff" t-shirts to keep spectators on the sidewalks and off the parade routes. This allows the police to focus on crowd control in key areas.
3) The police need to do a better job of allowing people to cross Eastern Parkway and not make it so the only way for pedestrians to get from one side of the avenue to another is to walk a half a mile, enter a pen, stand for 45 minutes and then get told they have to crosss within the next 30 seconds or it will be another hour before they can cross again.
4) The police and the organizers must jointly announce a zero tolerance policy for weapons and drugs at the parade. People should be told in advance that they will be detained, ticketed or arrested if they are caught selling, using or carrying those items on Eastern Parkway.
5) No hats and bats period. Its a parade.
6) All advertising for parade events including J'Overt, the kids parade, the steel drum competition and the parade itself should include langauge about expectations (ie. "Don't bring alcohol onto the avenue. If you are caught drinking along the roadway you will be ticketed and possibly arrested").
7) Better coordination needs to occur between the police and the parade organizers. Start earlier and work together insted of one side dictating what will or will not happen.
8 ) Building owners along the parkway should be told that if they are serving alcohol is must be consumed on their property (inside the fencelines).
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To put it mildly, many police seem to already hate working this parade. I imagine they will hate it even more if they are not allowed to have hats and bats.
I wonder if the police will try to force the other changes recommended by Homeowner by threatening an "unofficial" sickout.
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I think it's complicated. The desires of the community need to be paramount. Top down policing, especially in poorer non white areas gets problematic very quickly. (See: the facebook scandal)
Also it needs to be kept in mind that the murder rates during the parade this year weren't that far off from a typical holiday weekend in the summer.
Just b/c something happened, doesn't mean it happened b/c of the parade itself.
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With 9 months to go before the next parade, we may have to accept that we will be unable to change some people's perception of why bad things happen at the parade. This may become an exercise in making the various forces happy, regardless of the validity of their positions.
Because it will potentially erode further erode public support and force changes, it may be in the long term interests of the police for the 2012 parade to be as violent and ugly as possible.
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With 9 months to go before the next parade, we may have to accept that we will be unable to change some people's perception of why bad things happen at the parade.
Doesn't make the rampant racism in the NYPD any less valid of a discussion topic.
Sorry.
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