shots?
Comments
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eastbloc said:
So, it looks increasingly that Ms. Gay was killed by a police bullet. And is it any surprise, when police feel the need to fire 73 times to hit a single person?I never understood this. It's so consistent, I have to assume it is part of the training -- when you're firing at someone, don't aim and shoot and see what you've hit, just squeeze the trigger as fast as you can and unload the magazine in your target's general direction.
I would expect a police force that is supposed to deal with highly populated areas where stray shots could very easily lead to tragedy to take a somewhat more conservative approach when using of lethal force.
As they say, "gun control" means hitting your target.
damn amateurs getting worked up when only two of their colleagues got shot.
police are the problem, not assholes opening up on a crowded street.
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eastbloc said:
So, it looks increasingly that Ms. Gay was killed by a police bullet. And is it any surprise, when police feel the need to fire 73 times to hit a single person?I never understood this. It's so consistent, I have to assume it is part of the training -- when you're firing at someone, don't aim and shoot and see what you've hit, just squeeze the trigger as fast as you can and unload the magazine in your target's general direction.
I would expect a police force that is supposed to deal with highly populated areas where stray shots could very easily lead to tragedy to take a somewhat more conservative approach when using of lethal force.
As they say, "gun control" means hitting your target.
damn amateurs getting worked up when only two of their colleagues got shot.
police are the problem, not assholes opening up on a crowded street.
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Mr. Met--maybe there is more than one problem--criminals shooting at each other and cops shooting 73 bullets at a criminal when there are many, many innocent bystanders around. Criticizing the behavior of the police doesn't mean supporting the behavior of people who engage in criminal conduct--even though you always try to make it seem that way.
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photogirl said:
Mr. Met--maybe there is more than one problem--criminals shooting at each other and cops shooting 73 bullets at a criminal when there are many, many innocent bystanders around. Criticizing the behavior of the police doesn't mean supporting the behavior of people who engage in criminal conduct--even though you always try to make it seem that way.so you're problem is that the police weren't accurate enough? or would you have had them stop shooting at a certain point even if they were missing?
i'm not sure how many times they shot the guy.
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Perhaps the police could spend a little more time on the shooting range and a little less time cooping and scarfing donuts.
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This story continues to evolve
Press on the shooting investigation that concludes Ms. Gay was shot by an officers bullet: NY Post
Gotham wrote: The footage shows that he (the deceased male) clearly fired on the officers first. Ballistics testing on the bullet that killed the innocent woman was inconclusive, but there was no gun found associated with the victim of the man killed by police, although witness said he had one.
Source: http://www.gothamgazette.com/index.shtml
A gun has been lost?
Given the number of police in the neighborhood, I imagine police came from several directions. As police arrived, both "perpetrators" were armed and already firing at each other on streets and sidewalks crowded with pedestrians.
Eight (8) officers then fired their weapons, discharging 73 shots.
Complete chaos.
Despite what they show on TV, when I have fired a pistol, I have found them to be very difficult weapons to accurately and safely fire at a shooting range target. Even if I had more practice and training, I imagine I would become even less accurate if I was aiming at a human who was aiming at me or one of my co-workers, and seven of my co-workers were simultaneously firing.
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mr. met said:
police are the problem, not assholes opening up on a crowded street.
I'd say both are.
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booklaw said:
Perhaps the police could spend a little more time on the shooting range and a little less time cooping and scarfing donuts.hopefully the two police who were shot have learned their lesson.
So, it looks increasingly that Ms. Gay was killed by a police bullet. And is it any surprise, when police feel the need to fire 73 times to hit a single person?
The footage shows that he (the deceased male) clearly fired on the officers first. Ballistics testing on the bullet that killed the innocent woman was inconclusive, but there was no gun found associated with the victim of the man killed by police, although witness said he had one.
assumptions are revealing.
hmm...so this murderer was able to kill someone and then wound two police officers. maybe we need sharpshooters like him on the force.
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mr. met said:
hopefully the two police who were shot have learned their lesson.So, it looks increasingly that Ms. Gay was killed by a police bullet. And is it any surprise, when police feel the need to fire 73 times to hit a single person?
The footage shows that he (the deceased male) clearly fired on the officers first. Ballistics testing on the bullet that killed the innocent woman was inconclusive, but there was no gun found associated with the victim of the man killed by police, although witness said he had one.
assumptions are revealing.
hmm...so this murderer was able to kill someone and then wound two police officers. maybe we need sharpshooters like him on the force.
mr. met said:
damn amateurs getting worked up when only two of their colleagues got shot.police are the problem, not assholes opening up on a crowded street.
Et tu, mr. met? Another Brooklynian falls off the pedestal. I had you pegged as one of the reasonable ones here.
Obviously, the originator of the violence is worthy of condemnation. That doesn't mean it isn't worth examining the other factors here, particularly when they led to the loss of an innocent life.
73 shots is more than nine single-stack magazines worth of lead. It's two full AK-47 banana clips. Maybe we should give all of the cops fully-automatic MP-5's so we don't need 10 of them to shoot a single suspect armed with a handgun?
Either the cops were crapping their pants, they had lousy combat training (which amounts to the same), or they were just trigger-happy bastards. I don't subscribe to the latter view. I suspect it is a matter of training, and possibly departmental policy on how to take down an armed suspect.
It's just something worth reviewing, since there seems to be a pattern. There are no sacred cows. I feel for the injured policemen and their families as well, and it's partly for their sake that I ask the question. After all, we don't know whether the injured police were shot by Leroy or by each other.
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eastbloc said:
Et tu, mr. met? Another Brooklynian falls off the pedestal. I had you pegged as one of the reasonable ones here.Obviously, the originator of the violence is worthy of condemnation. That doesn't mean it isn't worth examining the other factors here, particularly when they led to the loss of an innocent life.
73 shots is more than nine single-stack magazines worth of lead. It's two full AK-47 banana clips. Maybe we should give all of the cops fully-automatic MP-5's so we don't need 10 of them to shoot a single suspect armed with a handgun?
Either the cops were crapping their pants, they had lousy combat training (which amounts to the same), or they were just trigger-happy bastards. I don't subscribe to the latter view. I suspect it is a matter of training, and possibly departmental policy on how to take down an armed suspect.
It's just something worth reviewing, since there seems to be a pattern. There are no sacred cows. I feel for the injured policemen and their families as well, and it's partly for their sake that I ask the question. After all, we don't know whether the injured police were shot by Leroy or by each other.
i don't know what i could have said on this site that made you think i was reasonable
i was just pointing out that your borderline-assumption that the police shot the innocent woman is premature, as is any assumption that the police shot each other.
and, in this case, i give the benefit of the doubt to the police rather than the guy who killed someone and then starting blasting away at police. i find it hard to understand people who don't do the same.
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...and do i wish the cops could've taken this guy out with one shot to his head? of course!
but at the end of the day, i think that's a secondary issue in this case.
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The Wall Street journal is reporting that the deceased male was hit only twice. His gun was reportedly found.
The circumstances involving the male in the hospital interest me.
a. He has been shot, but we don't know by whom.
b. He reportedly had a gun, but it has not been found.If this male had a gun and fired it, they may be able to find projectiles from it. If they do not find said projectiles OR the gun, I have a hard time believing that he was armed.
If he was not armed, this story could develop into a situation in which:
- A armed man shot at an unarmed man.
- After hearing the shots, the police arrive, fire on the armed male and in the process kill a bystander. The police also wound the unarmed man.
- Two police are wounded by the armed man.
Correct, no cow is sacred.
Correct, the facts may very well reveal a different scenario.
Correct, there may be so many variables in play that we never know who shot who.
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mr. met said:
i was just pointing out that your borderline-assumption that the police shot the innocent woman is premature, as is any assumption that the police shot each other.I find any assumption to be premature. For days, everyone assumed the criminals shot the woman, but now it's evident that the shot came from a police weapon. So why assume who fired the shot that hurt the officers?
and, in this case, i give the benefit of the doubt to the police rather than the guy who killed someone and then starting blasting away at police. i find it hard to understand people who don't do the same.
Bullets don't discriminate, whether they're fired by the good guy or the bad guy.
...and do i wish the cops could've taken this guy out with one shot to his head? of course!
but at the end of the day, i think that's a secondary issue in this case.
I don't care how many times they shoot the guy they're aiming for. I'm concerned with the fact that they're apparently shooting with reckless abandon.
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mr. met said:
i was just pointing out that your borderline-assumption that the police shot the innocent woman is premature, as is any assumption that the police shot each other.I find any assumption to be premature. For days, everyone assumed the criminals shot the woman, but now it's evident that the shot came from a police weapon. So why assume who fired the shot that hurt the officers?
and, in this case, i give the benefit of the doubt to the police rather than the guy who killed someone and then starting blasting away at police. i find it hard to understand people who don't do the same.
Bullets don't discriminate, whether they're fired by the good guy or the bad guy.
...and do i wish the cops could've taken this guy out with one shot to his head? of course!
but at the end of the day, i think that's a secondary issue in this case.
I don't care how many times they shoot the guy they're aiming for. I'm concerned with the fact that they're apparently shooting with reckless abandon.
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eastbloc said:
I find any assumption to be premature. For days, everyone assumed the criminals shot the woman, but now it's evident that the shot came from a police weapon. So why assume who fired the shot that hurt the officers?again:
Gotham » The footage shows that he (the deceased male) clearly fired on the officers first. Ballistics testing on the bullet that killed the innocent woman was inconclusive, but there was no gun found associated with the victim of the man killed by police, although witness said he had one.
no such thing is evident.
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whynot_31 said:
The Wall Street journal is reporting that the deceased male was hit only twice. His gun was reportedly found.The circumstances involving the male in the hospital interest me.
a. He has been shot, but we don't know by whom.
b. He reportedly had a gun, but it has not been found.If this male had a gun and fired it, they may be able to find projectiles from it. If they do not find said projectiles OR the gun, I have a hard time believing that he was armed.
If he was not armed, this story could develop into a situation in which:
- A armed man shot at an unarmed man.
- After hearing the shots, the police arrive, fire on the armed male and in the process kill a bystander. The police also wound the unarmed man.
- Two police are wounded by the armed man.
Correct, no cow is sacred.
Correct, the facts may very well reveal a different scenario.
Correct, there may be so many variables in play that we never know who shot who.
I think some of your facts are mixed up. The surviving male (Webster) is a known shooter of the deceased male (on surveillance) and his weapon was recovered (and subsequently used to disprove that he shot the bystander).
The surveillance tapes (as described by the Daily News reporter) supposedly show Webster firing the first shots at Police, followed by a return fire (presumably from the police).
The deceased male (Johnson) is the questionable shooter (based on a few eyewitness reports) and his weapon has not been found.
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Thanks for the clarification Arches. I've written a revised scenario which casts Webster as the lead actor, and in which the sequence of events is not known:
Webster kills his unarmed (?) opponent.
Two police officers are wounded, either by Webster or fellow officers.
Webster is wounded by police.
In an attempt to kill either Webster or his opponent, the police kill a bystander.
To be determined: Webster lives to tell the tale.
Based on your reading of the papers, is this account gaining prominence?
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eastbloc said:
We have all the slugs and all the weapons. It's just a matter of time before we know who shot who.I am not as certain.
Lets consider the variables:
the number of shots fired
the various trajectories
the possibility of ricochet
the likelihood that many projectiles passed thru the bodies instead of stopping in them.
....While the police will eventually put out a report with clear conclusions, I suspect that some of those conclusions may be based on inconclusive and conflicting information.
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^agreed. Based on the injuries sustained by the cops, i think it will be hard to make any definitive conclusions on the source of their injuries (unless those fragments are pretty large or unique in some way).
"Officer Avichaim Dicken, 24, suffered a graze wound to his arm and was released after treatment at Brookdale Hospital. Officer Omar Medina, was hit by bullet fragments in his face and leg and was admitted in stable condition."
On the other hand (assuming the Daily News was accurate in its commentary on the surveilance footage) it seems quite clear that Webster shot _at_ the cops before they returned fire (and then again 40 seconds after he was hit). I wonder if the footage will be released.
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This NYT article also seems to conclude that given the number of variables, we may never know some of the answers:
The article makes my mind spin:
If the police find projectiles from a 10th gun, they can conclude the deceased male (Johnson) was in-fact armed. However, we can also conclude that someone --in all of the chaos-- saw a gun on the ground and decided to pick it up and walk away with it.
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Don't worry, I'm sure Rev. Al will sort it all out.
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He needs to keep his ass in Harlem and stay there. He's just going to make things worse. We have local politicians that are surely more than willing to help Ms. Gay's family. Why him? He's the devil in disguise.
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We all walk around with preconceived notions and agendas; I hope Rev. Sharpton is able to suspend his.
The family and friends of the deceased deserve genuine comfort in light of their loss.
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how do we know the cops didn't somehow start this whole thing? or maybe an elaborate setup? can the cops PROVE that they didn't set this up?
keep asking questions.
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As anticipated, the press conference organized by CHCA was basically an opportunity to hear politicians, clergy and community organizations (such as Save Our Streets) discuss what could be done to reduce gun violence. About 150 people attended.
There was one heckler who kept shouting out that the police needed more gun training, but everyone else was respectful of those in front of the microphone. I didn't get a chance to to talk to the heckler, but I suspect even he realized that the death of Ms. Gay was a tragic accident.
...I also suspect this somber mood will prevail.
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It wasn't me
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mr. met said:
in this instance, which would you say is the bigger problem? the root problem?Our country's counter-productive approach to law enforcement and punishment.
Every individual is responsible for their actions, but when I see tragic stories like this, I'm reminded yet again how much our concepts of law and punishment do the opposite of what they're intended to do.But it makes us feel good to have cops putting drug dealers in jail. So we wash our hands and express shock when the same thing happens again over & over.
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Boygabriel said:
Our country's counter-productive approach to law enforcement and punishment.
Every individual is responsible for their actions, but when I see tragic stories like this, I'm reminded yet again how much our concepts of law and punishment do the opposite of what they're intended to do.But it makes us feel good to have cops putting drug dealers in jail. So we wash our hands and express shock when the same thing happens again over & over.
there is nothing the law can do to stop people from having unwanted children or children they can't properly care for. no one wants to talk about this, and no politician will say it, but it is the root of all of society's problems.
every system of law enforcement and criminal punishment has its flaws.
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