shots?

mr. met said:

there is nothing the law can do to stop people from having unwanted children or children they can't properly care for. no one wants to talk about this, and no politician will say it, but it is the root of all of society's problems.

I welcome you to join the many discussions we've had on the topic of poverty and crime.

Just so you know, there are very strong arguments that disagree with you.

If minimum wage paid a living wage, we wouldn't be sitting here telling poor people not to have kids.

every system of law enforcement and criminal punishment has its flaws.

That's not a mitigating fact for how counterproductive our punishment system is.

I sincerely hope nobody's arguing there's on root problem.

arches said:

On the other hand (assuming the Daily News was accurate in its commentary on the surveilance footage) it seems quite clear that Webster shot _at_ the cops before they returned fire (and then again 40 seconds after he was hit). I wonder if the footage will be released.

Arches, et al-

Here's the footage of the shooting.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/09/video_of_the_cr.php

From my viewing of it, I assume Ms. Gay may have been hit because she was sitting on the stoop of the adjoining building, and was in the line of fire between the gun-firing Mr. Webster and the responding police.

Likewise, I see no gun in the hands of the fleeing, now-deceased male, Mr. Johnson.

As I understand the film, Mr. Webster appears to shoot at Mr. Johnson as he is fleeing the building. Mr. Webster then fires in a different direction (presumably at rapidly arriving police). Mr. Webster then appears to be hit by a few projectiles.

The Voice reporter seems to view the film in a similar manner.

Is this how you interpret the video?

Yes, either the the Voice seems to have published an edited down version of the footage, OR the Daily News reporter seems to have a warped sense of time: 40 seconds does not elapse.

The reporter also seems to have access to some information provided by people interviewed at the scene and/or the police.

...all of which was subject to the interpretation of his mind, and we are now subjecting it to more interpretation as we read his account.

Yup, I see it and agree sound would help.

Going back to the Daily News account, I think this is the part that is most disturbing:

"Murder! Gucci murder!" Webster was heard to shout.

It as if he is either claiming credit for killing Mr. Johnson on behalf of the Gucci gang, or commanding other Gucci gang members who may be nearby to come to his aid.

BTW, it seems Amazon sells music by famous blood member Gucci Mane. Perhaps Webster's crew idolizes him?

Searching "Crown Heights" on Hood up may provide related readings for those really interested in the answer: http://thehoodup.com/board/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords="Crown+Heights"&fid[]=22]

Although the video is condensed and without sound, it has helped me.

Before I saw the video, I had a hard time understanding how Mr Johnson could have a gun, yet the police not be able to find it.

Now that I see that Mr. Johnson fled the building with two (2) other people, I do not find it hard to believe that one of them could have taken the gun as he succumbed to his fatal wounds. Either one of the two men could have taken Mr. Johnson's gun, and then kept running.

I imagine that the two men are being sought by the police and/or are being held until the investigation is complete. If a gun is determined to have been present among the three of them, I imagine the surviving two could be charged as "acting in concert" in attempting to murder Mr. Webster.

If there was a crime committed by the three men who run from the building, Mr. Johnson has paid for it with his life.

whynot_31 said:

Although the video is condensed and without sound, it has helped me.

Before I saw the video, I had a hard time understanding how Mr Johnson could have a gun, yet the police not be able to find it.

Now that I see that Mr. Johnson fled the building with two (2) other people, I do not find it hard to believe that one of them could have taken the gun as he succumbed to his fatal wounds. Either one of the two men could have taken Mr. Johnson's gun, and then kept running.

I imagine that the two men are being sought by the police and/or are being held until the investigation is complete. If a gun is determined to have been present among the three of them, I imagine the surviving two could be charged as "acting in concert" in attempting to murder Mr. Webster.

If there was a crime committed by the three men who run from the building, Mr. Johnson has paid for it with his life.

Excerpts from an eyewitness account on page one of this tread (xlizellx):

"At least 75 cops, 10 detectives, 20 EMTs are outside....people screaming, I saw the boy (I swear, he looked 15) run down the street with all 75 cops take off after him. They put 2 people in cop cars.

ETA: Only one stretcher with a young male went past into the many ambulances outside. He didn't look so good."

That seems to account for some of the runners. I'd imagine Johnson wouldn't have been put in a cop car in his condition...so he may have been the guy in the stretcher.

I've said this before and I will say it again: Whenever there is a shortage of resources, and living things compete for these resources, it leads to violence.This sad situation, ultimately can be viewed through a dispassionate prism.

The solution is not to convince would-be criminals to cede to morality.The politicians, the preachers, the pundits and po-po can't stop this. The sad fact is that, believe it or not, the violence Mr. Webster enacted was no doubt, in his mind, the actions of one who has THE RIGHT to act in such a manner. What we have here is an expression of an ethos which impels some young Black men to kill other Black men over slights real, or imagined.

I just picked up a copy of Sam Harris's, 'The Moral Landscape.' The first sentence of the book describes an Albanian moral code called Kanun which lauds the idea that, "...if a man commits murder, his victim's family can kill any one of his male relatives in reprisal." If you think about this, the ultimate end result means that ALL male relatives on both sides, the initial victim and the initial perpetrator, are subject to death, due to reprisal. It's self destructive. It makes no sense, but it is not viewed that way by both victim and perpetrator. Acting out of this ethos is viewed as THE RIGHT thing to do.

Similarly, in gang cultures where individuals construct whole identity based upon being 'respected' and not 'wronged' -- for whatever the reason -- it's not surprising that a harsh exchange of words would lead to death.

About a half hour ago I made my way home from hanging out at Chavella's. I had a wonderful un-sweetened flora de Jamaica -- with extra ginger, and as I walked to my door I saw a young brother approach the known weed spot on the block; he pulls out a huge wad of green and starts counting it, right at the door. It was a bit shocking. He looks up at me suddenly, and I say, 'Hey brother how are you?' and he looks me up and down and tells me, a man old enough to be his father, 'Nothin' is up and why you f--kin lookin' in mha face.' I couldn't stop. I couldn't shut up. My ego just wouldn't let me. I said, 'Brother, I wasn't looking in your face believe me.' Should I explain I was looking at the enormous roll of twenties and fifty dollar bills he was counting? Would that be better? 'Two women hustle next door to get inside their building. This young man says to me, 'You know, it's nothin'. And I don't even know why you f--kin' lyin' to me. Jus' be a man and admit that you were....' and on and on.

I went into my apartment, the blare of nearby gospel music from a nearby church filled the air, my heart was racing. I got too much to lose to argue with him. What's the point of it? But I must admit it, I have to say it, I wanted to stay out there and put my face in front of his face and tell him who is boss, show him who is boss. I don't even know why I wanted to do this, but I did. No doubt Leroy Webster felt something like this. I have no doubt of it. Is it the need to feel empowered about something in one's life? Is it anger fused with frustration fused with self hate, fueled with fear? What is it? Is it the pain of a brother treating you like the enemy? I just don't know.

And to put the race ingredient in it, if anyone has followed my many polemics in this site, I've written often about my attempts to beautify my block (and neighborhood) and keep it clean, and my neighbors' great determination (and success) to ensure such is not the case, yet the efforts of my white neighbors are successful. I can't understand it. Why do these brothers have no qualms about destroying my attempts at keeping my neighborhood clean, but yet, as if a force field envelopes the just-arrived hipsters, their efforts to do so blossom? My gay white neighbor across the street has a brownstone whose inside and outside belong in Better Homes and Garden. It's not that I want his property to be destroyed, but the act that it isn't bespeaks to the nature of the problem, no?

Similarly, what is it that enables US to kill each other with abandon and the lack of guilt? Last year, if many recall another shooting -- this time on Franklin near the corner of Park Place; again, another situation where two young Black men had beef and one shoots the other in the leg. The victim here did not die, but he lost most of his leg. I was - at one point during this sad affair - across the street, and a White woman and her daughter came to me and asked what happened. I told her, 'evidently a young man got shot.' She looked me in the eyes and asked, 'Is it safe around here?' I looked at her daughter and I answered as honestly as I could: 'It's safe for HER, but for me, now that's a problem...'

Black life is SO cheap, so expendable. We are a people that hold so much anger for each other. I DO know why such is the case, but the level of it never ceases to amaze me. I walk these streets accepting that my brothers view me with less value than they do the Whitefolks who live around here. I've come to the conclusion that these brothers believe that Black on Black abuse and disrespect is ignored, and the power structure really doesn't care about it; that as long as Whitefolks are not hurt, all is well.

Meanwhile their rents go to market prices and less and less of US can afford to live around here. Don't worry, wherever we go we'll kill each other there as well. Rest in peace Ms. Gray.

Mr. Webster and your ilk, you are a traitor to your race and your people. I hope you all die painful deaths. See? We can't help it.

Yeah Booklaw. Agreed. There's a dude named Stanley Elkins who wrote a book called 'Slavery' (I think) who did a really eerie comparison between the culture and ethos which evolved in Auschwitz and other concentration camps, and life as a slave in early America. Self-hatred and violence amongst the oppressed was rife. I have a fish tank, and, the pecking order is so specie based. I guess it's earthly nature to attack those who are like you rather than those who are unlike you.

If the oppressed group feels a member is advancing themselves they are accused of siding with the oppressor, and dealt with harshly.

..all of which allows the oppressor to justify their oppression. "see they are animals, they deserve how they are treated.

It is a vicious downward circle.

(Everyone should read the books Booklaw and MHA mention)

I have been told it is mere coincidence that the store is called wino(t).

The owner assured me it is pronounced differently than my avatar. Take care, MHA.

Needless to say, there are other parts of this thread are even more mind blowing.

This. Is. Why. We.. Post

whynot_31 said:

Arches-

Yup. And given that they may never recover all of the slugs, I now have no problem believing that Mr. Johnson or one of his associates may have had a gun. Perhaps we can find powder burns on their hands.

...but even if we found said gun, said projectiles and/or said powder burns, I do not know whether it would provide us with enough information to prove it fired the projectile that killed Ms. Gay.

Frankly, I don't even care whose gun killed Ms. Gay.

....the whole incident is tragic.

There are many instances where I feel entitled to opine on whether I think the police could do a better job, but this isn't one of them.

May Ms. Gay rest in peace, and her family recover from their loss.

May the police department be given the resources believed to mitigate such incidents.

Whynot, the original Daily News article that described the videotape included a description of the activity INSIDE of the building in addition to what went on outside. According to that account, there was never a gun shown in the hands of the victim inside. There was a questions as to whether the first guy to run out ran to get a gun, but on the video, you can't see where those guys go once they run out of the frame. The only report of the victim having a gun came from witnesses outside, but those don't seem to match up with the videos or the police account which doesn't find a weapon.

MHA said:

I've said this before and I will say it again: Whenever there is a shortage of resources, and living things compete for these resources, it leads to violence.This sad situation, ultimately can be viewed through a dispassionate prism. .....

been lurking this forum since i moved to the neighborhood a little over a year ago. i registered to say that i really appreciated this post by mha - thank you for the insight.

I am glad there are so many varieties of gangs from which one can derive a moral code (families, friends, coworkers, clubs, houses of worship, schools, neighborhoods), and that my primary norms were not influenced or created by an entity such as the Bloods.

I don't think I would make a good Blood member at all.