Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?
Comments
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This is nothing for the country (or the left) to be proud of.
I fear you may be forced at some point to come to the realization that the rest of the country might view the protesters and our economic issues differently than you do.
The death of obsolete conventional wisdom usually starts very slowly and then hastens when it nears its end.
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It's very hard to have a discussion with you if you change your posts every 3 minutes.
Just write a new post.
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I'm off too lunch. ....but I suspect you will need more time than that to make the Occupy Wall Street folks look intelligent.
I'll post this link on their sites when I return:
http://www.africa.upeace.org/documents/nvtc_Training_Manual.pdf
Just a little thought, that's all I ask of them.
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Can I add:
Demand Fourteen: I want a free pony. Free ponies for all! -
whynot_31 said:
I'm off too lunch. ....but I suspect you will need more time than that to make the Occupy Wall Street folks look intelligent.I'll post this link on their sites when I return:
http://www.africa.upeace.org/documents/nvtc_Training_Manual.pdf
Just a little thought, that's all I ask of them.
They're not here to convince you of anything, nor does their "intelligence" need to be proven to you.
The protest will continue without you and people who share your view.
This seems a difficult concept for you to grasp.
More importantly, despite not using your sage advice, a lot of people identify with the protesters' message.
This is because the middle and working classes are going broke.
Only the privileged and the wealthy fail to see this.
Many of them aren't going to see it until the system that makes them so rich starts to collapse.
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I'm off too lunch. ....but I suspect you will need more time than that to make the Occupy Wall Street folks look intelligent.
Is our protesters learning? (apologies to GW Bush). Stiglitz gives em some edumacation.
http://bwog.com/2011/10/03/stiglitz-speaks-at-occupy-wall-street/
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As expected, Stiglitz has some excellent points. I hope the protesters were able to listen in their shower and sleep deprived states.
A teach in my be what is most needed, but let's again compare and contrast the Occupy Wall Street people, with those who have been protesting on Wall Street for years, and will be in the future. Here's an ongoing, thought out event that will happen tomorrow:
The Human Services Council of New York will be taking to the streets again as it joins the "March to Wall Street” tomorrow, Wednesday, October 5th.
"As part of our Who Cares? I Do. Campaign and our work with the Beyond May 12 revenue coalition, we continue to support alternative revenue raising options to maintain services that New Yorkers depend on,” HSC General Counsel Michelle Jackson wrote to members yesterday. "As you may have seen in recent media, a group of protesters known as Occupy Wall Street, have been demonstrating for a few weeks in Zuccotti Park near Wall Street. They have peacefully assembled to take a stand against unfair policies that give big business and the wealthy undue advantage over political and budget processes and further disadvantage those in need.”
HSC is urging human service providers and advocates to show their support by joining HSC for the march tomorrow which will begin at City Hall at 4:30 and culminate at Zuccotti Park, which is located at Broadway and Liberty Street.
"We will march with labor and community groups to support the protesters and continue to press for alternative revenue options to maintain the quality of life and availability of services in New York,” said Jackson. "Show you Care! Don't forget to wear your Who Cares? I Do. button!”
Source: http://www.nynp.biz/index.php/breaking-news/7777-hsc-to-join-march-on-wall-street
Note:
A. There is no request for a pony. They have a concrete, action oriented platform, and a thorough understanding of how government spending cuts affect poor people in NYCB. They understand that in the current socio-cultural-political environment more revenue needs to be obtained in order for their services to receive more support, and that will be VERY DIFFICULT. They have an understanding how to attempt to influence politicians in this environment.
C. They have taken the liberty of assigning the Occupy Wall Street people a coherent message, one that fits their constant message of "poverty can be mitigated in NYC":
take a stand against unfair policies that give big business and the wealthy undue advantage over political and budget processes and further disadvantage those in need
D. They understand local laws. If they are going to use the street they will obtain a permit. They have likely met with the police in advance of the march to tell them of their intentions. Those coming to the event know what to expect.
As sad as it is, the current Occupy Wall Street group may be beyond educating, and has likely destroyed the brand/reputation to the degree that most reputable groups will only walk to them and then wave in their direction. Hopefully HSC (and other groups) will be able to use the existence of the Occupy Wall Street people as a location in which make intelligent statements to the press. Hopefully HSC is able to recruit aimless people to join HSC's well thought out mission.
See you then?
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As expected, Stiglitz has some excellent points. I hope the protesters were able to listen in their shower and sleep deprived states.
A teach in my be what is most needed, but let's again compare and contrast the Occupy Wall Street people, with those who have been protesting on Wall Street for years, and will be in the future. Here's an ongoing, thought out event that will happen tomorrow:
The Human Services Council of New York will be taking to the streets again as it joins the "March to Wall Street” tomorrow, Wednesday, October 5th.
"As part of our Who Cares? I Do. Campaign and our work with the Beyond May 12 revenue coalition, we continue to support alternative revenue raising options to maintain services that New Yorkers depend on,” HSC General Counsel Michelle Jackson wrote to members yesterday. "As you may have seen in recent media, a group of protesters known as Occupy Wall Street, have been demonstrating for a few weeks in Zuccotti Park near Wall Street. They have peacefully assembled to take a stand against unfair policies that give big business and the wealthy undue advantage over political and budget processes and further disadvantage those in need.”
HSC is urging human service providers and advocates to show their support by joining HSC for the march tomorrow which will begin at City Hall at 4:30 and culminate at Zuccotti Park, which is located at Broadway and Liberty Street.
"We will march with labor and community groups to support the protesters and continue to press for alternative revenue options to maintain the quality of life and availability of services in New York,” said Jackson. "Show you Care! Don't forget to wear your Who Cares? I Do. button!”
Source: http://www.nynp.biz/index.php/breaking-news/7777-hsc-to-join-march-on-wall-street
Note:
A. There is no request for a pony. They have a concrete, action oriented platform, and a thorough understanding of how government spending cuts affect poor people in NYCB. They understand that in the current socio-cultural-political environment more revenue needs to be obtained in order for their services to receive more support, and that will be VERY DIFFICULT. They have an understanding how to attempt to influence politicians in this environment.
C. They have taken the liberty of assigning the Occupy Wall Street people a coherent message, one that fits their constant message of "poverty can be mitigated in NYC":
take a stand against unfair policies that give big business and the wealthy undue advantage over political and budget processes and further disadvantage those in need
D. They understand local laws. If they are going to use the street they will obtain a permit. They have likely met with the police in advance of the march to tell them of their intentions. Those coming to the event know what to expect.
As sad as it is, the current Occupy Wall Street group may be beyond educating, and has likely destroyed the brand/reputation to the degree that most reputable groups will only walk to them and then wave in their direction. Hopefully HSC (and other groups) will be able to use the existence of the Occupy Wall Street people as a location in which make intelligent statements to the press. Hopefully HSC is able to recruit aimless people to join HSC's well thought out mission.
See you then?
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This just in!
Despite being against capitalism, some of the protesters have found a business they like: McDonalds.
Oh, the irony.
It isn't good food, and the wages are lousy, but considering where we started three weeks ago, they might be making progress!
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whynot_31 said:
This just in!Despite being against capitalism, some of the protesters have found a business they like: McDonalds.
Oh, the irony.
It isn't good food, and the wages are lousy, but considering where we started three weeks ago, they might be making progress!
In this city what other choice do they have?
Public toilets? almost none
Think the police would let them install portapotties? NoMaybe they should just find a way to not need a bathroom?
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whynot_31 said:
As sad as it is, the current Occupy Wall Street group may be beyond educating, and has likely destroyed the brand/reputation to the degree that most reputable groups will only walk to them and then wave in their direction.Actually the protest is still alive, well, and gaining visibility. They are very much still in the process of seeing who is coming out, how they can adapt and work together, and where to go from here.
Your predictions of demise or complications or decreased visibility continue to be completely wrong.
Another day goes by without you realizing the success of the movement doesn't, in fact, hinge upon people who view the world the way you do.
It's strange - I know.
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I will measure their success based solely on changes they create or cause.
First, they must intelligently and succinctly state their goals. A "better world" isn't going to cut it.
I also want to make sure that they do not receive credit (or blame) for the actions of others. This is difficult given that that have no visible leadership or memberships. How can I assume they were good (or bad) at anything?
With most causes, I am able to measure their success against money consumed. Am I going to be able get a CPA report, Char500 or 990 anytime soon?
On a different note, the city is not responsible for providing unauthorized groups with port-a-potties. Even groups with a permit must provide their own.
See you after work?
P.S. Here's a chance they missed to get trained and learn about the issues. But don't worry, a lot of the folks who attended will be at this afternoon's march to try to pass on what they learned to the OWS folks . Wish them luck!
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And just to bring a little mirth to this thread:
http://gothamist.com/2011/10/05/twitter_who_needs_wall_street_occup.php
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whynot_31 said:
I will measure their success based solely on changes they create or cause.Your definition of "progress" or what would compel you to participate puts you squarely in the group of people who don't matter to this movement.
This remains a difficult concept for you.
First, they must state their goals.
Or what? They're going to continue to not get your support? Again - the horror! How will they survive without people like you?
The city is not responsible for providing unauthorized groups with port-a-potties. Even groups with a permit must provide their own.
I didn't say they should should, so that's your brilliant idea.
I asked what other option these folks (or anyone in public in this city) has to use restrooms besides the very small number of public ones?
Your attempt to identify hypocrisy or mixed messages from them by using McDonald's bathrooms falls flat, like most of your observations of this event.
On a related note, here's someone who can help you grasp what this occupation is achieving, and why people who are waiting on a concrete list of demands don't matter to it.
During my lifetime, the activist left has gone through several incarnations, focusing on a series of different causes. For much of the 80s and 90s, very generally speaking, the focus was largely on identity politics. Then attention moved to globalization and then, during the Bush presidency, to wars abroad.
As far as I can tell, this is the first time the activist left has focused seriously on issues of economic opportunity at home.... [T]his movement has a real chance to help shape the debate over economic policy in this country -- not merely about the financial industry, which is the object of protests right now, but also about inequality generally.
True, the protesters don't have such an agenda right now. In fact, they don't really have any agenda at all, at least in the traditional sense. But it's not like their animating worldview is such a mystery.
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I do not understand how people "like me" are being unreasonable when they ask for achievable goals before investing time or effort.
While there are a lot of people in life who have no ability to enact or achieve goals, it is not clear to me how this "movement" will attract anyone beyond these people. As a result, I believe the movement is doomed, and have consistently provided it with sage advice.
While I understand the participants feelings of anomie, such feelings don't accomplish much. Beyond educating them about tactics and encouraging them to support the goals that are being attempted by SEC, HSC and others, I don't know how to help them.
They seem to be saying:
"I don't want the world to be this way"
Much of city and country seems to be saying back:
"We don't either. We've been working on the problems for quite sometime now, and please join us as we aggressively work on things we think will help. While we hear you, we are not going to join you because you seem to be merely pointing out how you would like the world to be. We will keep working on the problem whether you sleep in the park or not, but would love your help.
P.S. Today's events should go much better. People with established organizations and causes are giving some direction to the anomie, and there are rumors that the OWS folks got their acts together enough to get a permit.
It seems our "police state, authoritarian city" (?) gives permits out after all.
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It is odd to think of Mary as a mere pragmatist, but I'll certainly make it a point to congratulate her at the next meeting we are at together:
Ms. Brosnahan, of the Coalition for the Homeless, said that the labor and community support could help push the protest to new heights.
“There is genuine, palpable anger out there,” she said. “It's not in isolated pockets. People are fed up. I doubt this group wants to remain there forever saying they're angry. At some point it needs to be funneled into constructive steps. That's what I hope will happen.”
Well stated, Mary.
It is always good to get our causes in well written articles in Crain's NY Business.
Source: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20111005/FINANCE/111009950/0/newsletter
Because it will benefit everyone, perhaps we can agree to let Occupy Wall Street (OWS) claim credit for making us work on some of the ideas we have been working on all along?
By doing so, they will hopefully go home, shower, read up on economics and policy, and then work with us as we once again pick the "least bad" candidate to make the "least bad" choices in November 2012?
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Whynot, I found both the spokeperson for Occupy Wall Street, and a decent platform that everyone can agree upon.
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While Mr. Monk has some good points, I have reached the conclusion that the US will probably not ever balance its budget, much less pay off its debts.
On these and other things, I have decided that the best strategy is not to rebel by sleeping in a park, but to pursue acceptance. While some may perceive those who practice acceptance as accepting prevailing standards because they lack standards of their own, I do not believe this is necessarily true.
Some people confuse acceptance with apathy, but there's all the difference in the world. Apathy fails to distinguish between what can and what cannot be helped; acceptance makes that distinction. Apathy paralyzes the will-to-action; acceptance frees it by relieving it of impossible burdens."-Arthur Gordon
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.Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.-Jalal ad-Din Rumi
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.Acceptance of one's life has nothing to do with resignation; it does not mean running away from the struggle. On the contrary, it means accepting it as it comes, with all the handicaps of heredity, of suffering, of psychological complexes and injustices.-Paul Tournier
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.Acceptance is not submission; it is acknowledgment of the facts of a situation. Then deciding what you're going to do about it.-Kathleen Casey Theisen
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.If a ship has been sunk, I can't bring it up. If it is going to be sunk, I can't stop it. I can use my time much better working on tomorrow's problem than by fretting about yesterday's. Besides, if I let those things get me, I wouldn't last long.-Admiral Ernest J King
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.When you are outraged by someone's impudence, ask yourself at once, Can the world exist without impudent people? It cannot; so do not ask for impossibilities.-Marcus Aurelius Antonius
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.Acceptance of what has happened is the first step to overcoming the consequences of any misfortune.-William James
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.After an argument, silence may mean acceptance or the continuation of resistance by other means.-Mason Cooley
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.Human material seems to have one major defect: it does not like to be considered merely as human material. It finds it hard to endure the feeling that it must resign itself to passive acceptance of changes introduced from beyond.-Czeslaw Milosz
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.BTW, today's rally was almost as big as the one on May 12th
....the group around me seemed to be a mix of those with actionable goals and those in search of utopia. -
ooops, the police pepper sprayed the fox news cameraman and hit the reporter in the stomach with a billy stick tonight. One would almost think they would not be blindly swinging that stick around right in front of the news cameras....
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Yup. This video was completely predictable, and those who know the value of time limited, goal based, protests (the unions, the special interest groups, etc) went home by 8 PM.
whynot_31 said:
Correct.Depending upon which side you take, the police are now engaging in brutality OR the protesters are becoming defiant/frustrated/belligerent in the face of capitalism still standing.
Both outcomes were almost certainties.
While the truth of "what is happening in lower Manhattan" is probably in the middle of the two views, a lot of very sympathetic people are sitting this battle out on the sidelines.
Our reasons may vary, but we believe that this has been a lose - lose proposition since the moment "Occupying Wall Street" was conceived as a idea.
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whynot_31 said:
I do not understand how people "like me" are being unreasonable when they ask for achievable goals before investing time or effort.I didn't call you unreasonable, did I? Didn't mean to. I said your camp* is irrelevant right now, and I think this truth is having trouble breaking through your sage conventional wisdom.
They also don't need your help. What they are doing is incongruous to your demands for participation.
To recap: they don't need your help.
*"they're unorganized! where are the demands!? condescension condescension condescension"
While there are a lot of people in life who have no ability to enact or achieve goals, it is not clear to me how this "movement" will attract anyone beyond these people. As a result, I believe the movement is doomed, and have consistently provided it with sage advice.
Yes, your brilliant advice which they have not followed and yet not suffered b/c of it. Again, most of your advice has proven to be irrelevant.
While I understand the participants feelings of anomie, such feelings don't accomplish much. Beyond educating them about tactics and encouraging them to support the goals that are being attempted by SEC, HSC and others, I don't know how to help them.
They don't need your help.
Much of city and country seems to be saying back: blah blah
It's awesome that you think that a lot of the rest of the country happens to agree with your viewpoint.
That's convenient isn't it?
It seems our "police state, authoritarian city" (?) gives permits out after all.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I said the city and NYPD control when and where people can protest, and they do it for political ends; to marginalize people who question their authority.
This fact remains very true.
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Regardless of who is in the majority, I would like for you (or anyone) to tell me what yelling "3-2-1" then rushing a police barricade at around 10 PM achieves.
...besides attracting more people who wish to do the same.
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Regardless of the point I made, you'd like to talk about something else?
Nice try.
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My point is that the unions and special interest groups had a good march yesterday, and that the OWS folks should accept their offers of assistance or adapt their tactics. By doing so, they would suffer less, and prosper more.
Is it wrong to encourage the OWS people to quickly develop a platform and then present it in a manner that will help their cause?
Am I wrong to assert that they should effectively isolate themselves from people who do not practice nonviolence?
Is your point that the OWS folks can achieve their goals of a fairer, more just world without the assistance of established organizations like unions and special interest groups?
Do you think this New Normal (or, if you prefer, "massive rip off") will be enough to cause enough people to engage in a slow, nonviolent paradigm shift?
...do you believe that shift will occur without designated leaders, ideology or infrastructure of any kind?
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Actually since I will be in the vicinity, I might take the advice of Mick and "go down to the demonstration to get my fair share of abuse." Wonder if there is a corner for corporate drones?
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Younger readers-
Domino was referencing this song by the Rolling Stones
http://www.lyricsdomain.com/18/rolling_stones/you_cant_always_get_what_you_want.htmlDomino-
Whatever you do, don't give them advice. If you do so, they might conclude that you are against them, and/or declare that they can change the country without you.I fear it is only a matter of time before they conclude anyone who works for a corporation is a demon.
It is brutal to watch self defeating behaviors.
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BG, I assume when you say "they don't need your help" you mean they're beyond help?
This is a fringe minority of malcontents posturing as the majority. The best they'll do is become a political tool of the Democratic party trying to win the 2012 elections, the same way the Tea Party malcontents were usurped by the Republicans in 2010.
Sympathy is beyond generous in this case. Pity is more appropriate.
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Owners of New York City's Zuccotti Park may be starting to get fed up with it being occupied.
Brookfield Office properties, the firm that owns the central location for the Occupy Wall Street protests, has released a statement claiming that they have not been able to properly maintain the park and that sanitation has become a growing concern.
"Because many of the protestors refuse to cooperate by adhering to the [park] rules, the park has not been cleaned since Friday, September 16th, and as a result, sanitary conditions have reached unacceptable levels," said in a written statement by the property management firm.
Demonstrators protesting bank bailouts and calling for increased Wall Street regulation may harm New York City's economy, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/10/07/bloomberg_articlesLSPIFI0D9L36.DTL#ixzz1a7uQ08MB"What they're trying to do is take the jobs away from people working in this city," Bloomberg said today during his weekly appearance on WOR radio. "They're trying to take away the tax base we have. None of this is good for tourism."
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