Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?
Comments
-
To paraphrase Bloomberg: "They're attacking my friends and I don't like it!"
-
This may get very ugly.
Whynot's guide on How Not To Handle This Situation:
a. Police announce today that everyone will be evicted from park on October 23rd.
b. The smart, sane protesters go home ahead of this date.
c. Angry young men arrive from all over the country to take the place of the smart, sane protesters.
d. On October 23rd, the police and protesters put on a violent show for the internet and TV audiences around the world.
C'mon NYC, we can be smarter than this.
-
c. Angry young men arrive from all over the country to take the place of the sane protesters.
I think that rather than an influx of "Che" proteges, lower Manhattan will be flooded by regular folks, including stroller people, and the NYPD will be unable to do anything but stand by and watch. Set a deadline for a confrontation and they will arrive in biblical numbers.
-
Having effectively cornered itself by ignoring my advice, do you think the NYPD would be stupid enough to clobber the WNYC crowd you describe?
-
Clobbering no, but pepper-spray can't be ruled out.
-
Would encouraging the WNYC crowd to visibly wear their work IDs make the police realize:
a. The crowd has changed, andb. It should get over having some protesters occupy a tiny parcel of land that has never been used much by office workers during the winter
?
-
Ms. Tzortzatos’s tolerance for the newcomers finally vanished when the sink was broken and fell to the floor. She installed a $200 lock on the bathroom to thwart nonpaying customers, angering the protesters.
“I’m looked at as the enemy of the people,” she said.
The anticorporate participants in Occupy Wall Street, which is currently in its third week, say they have no intention of leaving soon. The protest has been building in size, with sister demonstrations erupting in other cities, and politicians, labor leaders and celebrities adding their support. But for many neighborhood businesses, the protest’s end cannot come soon enough.
In interviews, they said they were especially annoyed that the organizers of the grass-roots movement neglected to include portable toilets in their plan to bring down Wall Street.
Residents, too, say they are losing patience.
Mothers have grown weary of navigating strollers through the maze of barricades that have sprouted along the streets. Toddlers have been roused from sleep just after bedtime by chanting and pounding drums.
Several businesses said they had no choice but to respond to the influx of protesters by closing bathrooms.
Mike Keane, who owns O’Hara’s Restaurant and Pub, said that theft of bathroom soap and toilet paper had skyrocketed and that one protester used the bathroom but failed to properly use the toilet.
Both Ms. Tzortzatos, owner of Panini & Co., and Mr. Keane said that the protesters rarely bought anything, yet hurled curses when they were told that only paying customers could use their bathrooms.
Steve Zamfotis, manager of another nearby store, Steve’s Pizza, said: “They are pests. They go to the bathroom and don’t even buy a cup of coffee.”
Mr. Zamfotis said he closed his bathroom after it repeatedly flooded from protesters’ bathing there.
Still, in a widely distributed pamphlet, “Welcome To Liberty Plaza: Home of Occupy Wall Street,” participants were given explicit instructions on where to find relief.
“After you’ve dined,” the pamphlet reads, “feel free to refresh yourself in the restrooms of neighboring businesses like Burger King and McDonalds without feeling obligated to buy anything.”
A manager of the Burger King in question said he had no trouble with the protesters, though a maintenance worker at the McDonald’s, Deon Cook, said that in recent days he had been forced to clean the bathroom every five minutes.
Kira Annika, a spokeswoman for the protesters, wrote in an e-mail that she had not heard of such complaints. “We were under the impression that the local business community appreciated our patronage and the attention that we give them,” she wrote.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/nyregion/occupy-wall-street-begins-to-chafe-its-neighbors.html?hp
-
It's anarchy in the W.C.!
-
whynot: i don't really get why you're still so dismissive of this. you seem to sympathize with the group's concerns somewhat, however slightly, yet you're writing them off as any anchor from fox news might. assuming you're left-leaning, and correct me if i'm wrong, it is puzzling that you're belittling the massive rejuvenation of political interest that the occupy movement, to the extent you could call it a movement, seems to be carrying out within young liberals nationwide.
it's true that many of them don't have the most nuanced understanding of economic policy - and why should they? - but that's partly because they've been deliberately kept out of the process for their entire lives. perhaps instead of railing against them on a message board you could extend your 'sage advice' to them in person?
edit: i mean, honestly, it seems that if the interest in this continues to grow it could be a very powerful political force if harnessed effectively. why would you want to deride that?
second edit: plus the group's base has widened incredibly from the first week. i really don't think this is a primarily anarchist/socialist group anymore. in fact it's amazingly non-partisan at the moment.
-
I would love for OWS to evolve, and my opinion of them would evolve as well. Throughout this thread I have provided them with good advice, along with amazement/mocking at their level of naivete.
I have also regularly posted on their websites under my real name, as have people from HSC and WFP. ....whether the folks from OWS listen to our advice is up to them.
HSC and WFP will continue this fight long after after OWS has gone home with an enhanced sense of anomie and alienation.
While no one likes to watch the young left constantly self destruct, the pain does not obligate one to participate in their naivete. While I consistently lean left, I abhor the left's over developed sense of justice, and can not understand how its members do not see the world as I do; my understanding of human psychology and economics is that we are an inherently competitive species.
At this point, despite being an atheist, I find myself actually praying for the protection and awakening of OWS members. While I love a stoners dream of utopia as much as anyone else, I find myself hoping a rain or cold snap will send them on their way. After a shower and few economics classes, I hope they join those who work for progressive policies while understanding the greater socio-political-economic realities of our country.
While I defend their right to be clueless and their right to "grow-up into adulthood" in a very public private park, I believe capitalism is here to stay. I advise acceptance of this fact over another losing round with the NYPD and media.
I do not perceive America as being anything like Smith, Oberlin or Vermont.
-
They're not half a naive as you think they are.
That's why your predictions that the demonstration would die or be coopted are continuously wrong.
The protest is happening outside of what you view as normal processes and it confuses you deeply, therefore your response is to mock and condescend.
-
eastbloc said:This is a fringe minority of malcontents posturing as the majority
Fringe? 27% is fringe?
The poll found that 27 percent of Americans generally agree with the group's overall position, while 19 percent disagree. Fifty-four percent said they have no opinion, partly reflecting the 49 percent that have not heard of the movement.
And that's just asking if one supports this particular protest.
What percent of Americans do you think agree with protesters that our system is broken? That we need to tax the rich more. That there needs to be Wall Street accountability. That investment banks ruined our economy. That Obama and anyone else in power should do more to help the other 99%?
I'm going to go with A LOT.
-
Boygabriel said:
They're not half a naive as you think they are.That's why your predictions that the demonstration would die or be coopted are continuously wrong.
The protest is happening outside of what you view as normal processes and it confuses you deeply, therefore your response is to mock and condescend.
BG-
Even if they are (as you assert) "not half as naive" as I perceive them, this would still mean they are quite naive.Perhaps because the public and the media likes to mock the disorganized dreamer, the public is clearly aware of the existence of OWS.
Those who are not yet aware, may become aware once Halloween arrives; I suspect we will see more than a few people dressed as OWS protesters this Halloween. What remains to be seen is whether this awareness will be successful in enacting real policy or "moral" changes.
There is hope. Unlike OWS NYC, some of the OWS cities are quickly weeding out the local malcontents, and have articulate leaders that are working with the press and their local authorities to get a coherent message out.
Once one ignores the impractical messages of the socialists, anarchists, idealists, and the others, there does seem to be a short list of things that the remaining protesters might like:
--Revamp the tax code to tax the rich more (aka redistribute wealth)
--Regulate the the Securities industry be more closely regulated to prevent bubbles and fraud.
--Pass the jobs bill.
While huge portions of the public may support such goals, it remains to be seen whether OWS will help (or hinder) the general public and the established organizations achieve such goals. Many people and organizations have been working on these goals for a very looooong time.
If last week's "Union and Special Interest" march was any indication, many people and organizations like what they believe are the goals of OWS, but think their tactics and message need dire help.
I'm optimist an will concur that that OWS NYC does appear to be making progress. I think several factors are in play:
*They may be realizing that consensus does not work whenever a group is diverse.
*They may be finally following the advice of myself and others.
*The malcontents may be slowly getting bored and going home.
I suspect that once we get rid of the remaining malcontents, we will either be able to get work changing america, or be forced to accept our evolving world.
-
Interesting facts and figures about the actual 1%
One of the most disturbing statistics to me is about who owns all the financial securities.
Hint: not the 99%
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/10/one-percent-income-inequality-OWS
-
Is that what the Protester are against today?
People investing their money in businesses and enterprises that are profitable?
Do they think Economic leakage is better?
-
People investing their money in businesses and enterprises that are profitable?
That's such a cute way to put it.
It's almost as if you missed the last decade of world economic events.
-
Given world events, should people be forced to invest in things that only lose money?
If the government is going to mitigate any risks by bailing out banks and investment houses, the wealthy are making a rational choice when they invest their money in such places. They can't lose!
Lately, the protesters seem think some people earn too much money. If the article you cite in Mother Jones is correct, shouldn't they go after people in Finance after non-finance execs and medical people?
P.S. I can't believe I just cited Mother Jones.
-
Given world events, should people be forced to invest in things that only lose money?
Yes WN, that's what I'm arguing. As always, thanks for keeping the level of discourse high.
If the government is going to mitigate any risks by bailing out banks and investment houses, the wealthy are making a rational choice when they invest their money in such places.
I agree, it's almost as if the government has irrational policies that encourage dangerous and parasitic practices that increase wealth disparity and disproportionately hurt the other 90%.
If only there would be some kind of public protest..........
-
Yes, like most of the country, I've heard about a silly disorganized protest consisting of society's most confused. I have even consistently tried to give them advice and leadership.
...as have the Union organizers and special interest leaders involved in things like the Beyond May 12th coalition.
At first, the OWS group was predictably plagued by anarchists and socialists. Now, there is beginning to be hope. The anarchists and socialists are going home, and we are left with a media filled park in which intelligent statements can be made, while strange people with card board signs and sleeping bags provide a backdrop.
The scene is surreal: Those who know about policy talk to cameras about the tax code and regulation of the equity markets, while right behind them are confused people. While most of them are having a hard time making ends meet in the current economy, a few of them had completely unrealistic expectations; they would be able to pay back 100k student loans as a result of getting a BA in English!
Although Halloween is fast approaching and I expect OWS costumes to be de rigueur, I (along with the media) must admit that I now grown tired of making fun of the protesters and constantly offering them assistance.
Although they are now now largely law abiding and harmless, they may still be beyond help. There will always be people who think the rich are to blame for this mess, but such people will always be around.
The smart people will ignore them as we always have. We will focus on improving the system we have, instead of focusing on utopian dreams of revolution or consensus based societies.
-
For those who aren't as wise, knowledgeable and condescending as you are, I posted information related to the issues OWS has brought to the forefront.
Namely: the distribution of wealth and the ruling investment class who are largely responsible for the 2008 crisis, one of the worst in modern history, as well as the ongoing failure of our leaders to hold anyone accountable or adequately reform the system.
Sometimes it takes public action to bring real change.
3 years into the Obama administration, it seems this might be one such time.
FWIW, I find most things that socialists and anarchists tell me about our system and society to be far more intelligent than what pragmatic fonts of knowledge such as David Brooks and Alan Greenspan tell me.
Once again I am concerned for you as you tend to confusion conventional wisdom with actual wisdom.
Sadly, world events continue to lay waste to this common mistake.
-
So far, OWS has merely told us what we already knew:
1. The US (and the world) has a lopsided distribution of wealth.
2. Keeping capitalism under control is hard work, and no one is doing a good job of it.
I assume they want us to do something about 1 and 2. Although many people have spent their lives working on such issues, the protesters seem unaware of the existing efforts.
As a result, (or perhaps because they are naive) they have decided to create a movement of their own. If they would like their movement to grow, they should get a coherent message, an articulate leader and sound tactics.
Do you see anyone sleeping in that park that is up to the task?
-
It isn't a movement that needs a logo and a catch phrase and some candidates they want to put up in the next election.
The sooner you stop trying to fit it into that square hole, the less confused you will be.
-
When pressured, they state that they are against Economic Injustice.
I am of the perspective that "economic injustice" has no definition.
What group (anarchist/socialist/capitalist/collectivist/individualist etc) isn't against "economic injustice"? Each group claims to be against economic injustice, yet simply has distinct ways in which they will eliminate or reduce it.
Doesn't the real issue involve how this tiny OWS group will go about achieving said better world?
Can't the 99% who is not part of OWS demand that the 1% that is, form an articulate vision of what they want before we must stop mocking them and join them?
-
Doesn't the real issue involve how this tiny OWS group will go about achieving said better world?
No, that's not the real issue.
It's just your obsession and complete preoccupation.
Can't the 99% who is not part of OWS demand that the 1% that is, form an articulate vision of what they want before we must stop mocking them and join them?
You are an always have been free to mock them. You aren't part of what they are doing, and they won't be needing you any time soon.
It is shocking that they wouldn't appeal to you, nor heed your brilliant advice, but such is life.
Sometimes things are achieved without us or our viewpoints.
There is increasingly RISING public anger about issues that are not getting enough public debate. OWS is one group that represents the changing landscape.
With or without you.
-
If I knew what they wanted, I would hope that they succeed.
At present, I am not sure I want them to succeed. At present, I don't know when they will be able to let themselves go home.
Hopefully, they will continue to evolve. So far, the show has been sorta good.
-
So, the next big "Occupy" event seems to be scheduled for this Saturday (10/15/11). The plan seems to be meet at Washington Square, protest outside some banks and then Times Square.
Massive Convergence In solidarity with the October 15th world day of action. We are building a new world. Join us on Saturday. You can come right to Times Square at 5pm or take part in one of many other earlier actions. Student meet up at 12pm, Washington Square Park, Labor March on the Banks 11am from Liberty Square
source: https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=159911157436152
I don't know whether the organizers bothered to get a permit.
Anyone have predictions as to how it will go?
Anyone remember the union demonstration that was held at Times Sq back in April 2011? They had a permit and a sound system, and the police left them alone.
-
Presumably some permit has been sought. Let's say it has been sought: that doesn't mean the protestors control the situation. Pens and other means of kettling tend to interrupt the conditions of assembly even if the rights of assembly aren't violated. Hence, it is likely that some protesters will seek to re-establish their own control, at which point they must accept the likelihood of arrests.
Since civil disobedience is one of the tactics employed by #OWS, it is quite likely that the conditions of a permit may be exceeded; if no permit has been sought, then the entire affair will be one of civil disobedience. Arrests are simply part of the process; the use of pepper-spray and batons on otherwise peaceful protesters should not be.
-
Regardless of whether a permit has been sought, I expect some attendees to be arrested despite not believing that they engaged in civil disobedience.
The general public will file such folks under the "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Yes, hopefully those protesters who are peaceful (yet break the law) will be arrested sans pepper-spray and batons.
Regardless of whether they have obtained a permit, I expect that the NYPD is fully aware of the event. When one recruits a crowd via Facebook and Twitter, one also attracts the police.
P.S. Lots of organized protests, by established groups are occurring around the proposed cancellation of the "NYS millionaires tax"
-
Proponents of OWS get arrested at a Brooklyn foreclosure auction.
And, last but not least, it looks like the city is going to attempt to end camping and sleeping in the Zuccotti park as of tomorrow. (this is going to be a mess)
-
Moveon.org is urging it's members and other people getting their emails to head down to Zuccotti park tomorrow morning at 6:00am. Because this is MoveOn.org, and therefore a reasonable and legitimate group, will you be following along with this Whynot?
Dear MoveOn member,
Unless we act now, tomorrow morning could mark the end of the occupation of Wall Street.
Mayor Bloomberg has ordered the NYPD to clear Zuccotti Park at 7 a.m. tomorrow. Protesters would only be allowed back in under new rules that would make it impossible to continue the occupation.1 But this is our city, our park, and our mayor, so as New Yorkers, we can put a stop to this.
If you can, come to Zuccotti Park tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. to stand with the protesters at the moment when they need us most. They've put everything on the line to stand up against Wall Street greed and the corruption of our democracy. Tomorrow morning it's time to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them.
And right now call the city at 311 or 212-NEW-YORK ( 212-639-9675 ), and demand that Mayor Bloomberg respect the protesters' First Amendment rights and not interfere with this peaceful occupation. Press "0" to speak to an operator when it asks you to choose a language.You can also text the Mayor at 311692. Your regular cell phone texting charges will apply.
Mayor Bloomberg claims the shutdown is necessary for "cleaning operations," but this tactic has been used to end protests before. And the new rules explicitly prohibit tarps, sleeping bags, and even "lying down."
This "operation" is not about cleaning, it's about trampling on the First Amendment rights of protesters to speak out against economic injustice and gather peaceably to petition the government. It could damage the movement that has been spreading across the country.
So come to the park Friday morning at 6 a.m. to stand with the protesters.
And right now, call 311, or 212-NEW-YORK ( 212-639-9675 ), and tell them you want Occupy Wall Street to be allowed to remain in Zuccotti Park without restrictions on their ability to camp overnight. You can also text the Mayor at 311692. Your regular cell phone texting charges will apply.
Thanks for all you do.
–Justin, Carrie, Michael, Anna, and the rest of the team
P.S. You can also sign up to get SMS text alerts on Occupy Wall Street.
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds